Scobleizer: Wow: 3D operating system, Open Croquet
herbert
· 3 years ago
this looks real nice i think this will shoot us into a new dimension of playing together ;)
Richard Callaby
· 3 years ago
Robert,
While a 3D operating system certainly sounds nice how does that improve my working day to day? Does seeing the numbers in 3D format make me decide faster, or in some way make me see insights into those numbers any different than in a 2D format? The breakthorughs that the Excel team showed on Channel9 is something more of what I want to see. Make it easier for me to analyze the data and I do not believe that seeing the data in 3D format will in any way help me do that. Sorry.
I mean not to give you a hard time but sometimes I wonder if those people who think these things up will try to solve some of the really "hard problems" that Bill Gates mentioned on Channel9. These hard problems are creating a more natural interface. An interface that will naturally understand my voice when prompted. Imagine that interface transferred to other things such as a car. Now how would that change the world? I would imagine quite alot.
I really like the whole idea of a virtual world though. A place where we all can go to escape and create connections. That is a piece of software that is really going to take off. Although I am sure the folks at LucasArts would disagree since they are having such a hard time with Star Wars Galazies taking off.
You are lucky in that you get to see the neatest gadgets before any of the public does.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Richard: I believe so, yes. But it is a LONG way from being mass market. They showed a spreadsheet with a new kind of chart that, I think does let me see its data in a new way. But, if you focus on that you'd be missing the point. This stuff is a lot bigger deal than just an improved spreadsheet.
But, we're years away from having it be a mass market thing. Even though it'll have some pretty sizeable success in the next five years thanks to things like World of Warcraft and Second Life.
Preston Austin
· 3 years ago
Hi,
Lots and lots of information and downloads which include some videos are available, this is open source openly licensed cross-platform software available at http://www.opencroquet.org/. Come and get it!
Thanks, Preston Austin
Byron
· 3 years ago
Yeah, Croquet is pretty damn cool. Which chart was demo'ed? (Out of professional curiosity. Data display is something I spend a lot of time on).
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Byron: it was a spreadsheet of numbers. I didn't find out. That was a minor part of their demo.
Shelley
· 3 years ago
Linking in 3D was a piece of cake with VRML.
Unfortunately, VRML never could find an audience.
BigMac
· 3 years ago
Not impressed.. Just another 3D funny thing
Michiel
· 3 years ago
Heh, you sound like me when I first discovered VRML in the 90's. It's the same as when you rave on and on about Second Life; I'm thinking 'yup, cybertown'. (http://www.cybertown.com/)
Back then it was mainly the processor power holding us back, but there was another thing lacking:
a mouse, keyboard and 2d screen remains a lousy way to interact with a 3d world. 'salright for a game MAYBE but it is clunky. HMDs are clunky. Solve the 3d interface problem and MS'll be set for another decade of world domination.
gwhiz
· 3 years ago
Robert, I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist... But, if you find an HD DVD of the movie "Disclosure" get it and pay REAL close attention to the scene where Michael Douglas goes into a VR world, interacts with a file system, retrieve docs, searches, and watches while someone else enters and begins trashing documents.
We may be closer to that than anyone realizes. VERY cool!
James Robertson
· 3 years ago
Robert:
"Sometimes I pinch myself at what I get to be among the first human beings to experience."
It was also demonstrated at Smalltalk Solutions 2003, but I didn't blog that conference.
James Robertson
· 3 years ago
Whoops, I can't recall what I've blogged when. That was the 2003 Smalltalk Solutions show I blogged about Croquet, not 2004.
Dmad
· 3 years ago
2003, huh? As Homer Simpson would say.... "D'oh!" :-)
Devil's Advocate
· 3 years ago
@2
"While a 3D operating system certainly sounds nice how does that improve my working day to day? Does seeing the numbers in 3D format make me decide faster, or in some way make me see insights into those numbers any different than in a 2D format? "
What an astonishing lack of vision. What do the numbers represent? Most likely a model that can be rendered. Suppose you have a multivariate function you're trying to get a grip on. You could build a surface and explore how the surface looks to gain insight into how your number behave.
Spreadsheets are too abstract - animate your data and make a simulation - then play with it and SEE what happens. Right now computers suck at exploring real world ideas because simulation takes a whole lot of custom programming and is beyond the skills of the average developer much less user.
Croquet is designed to allow people to create and explore worlds with real physics models and rapid model making and collaboration on the order of the web (Teatime sync protocol).
Just because you can't see beyond MS Office doesn't mean there's nothing there. I imagine you probably would have asked "Rows and columns? how does that help me do arithmetic like I do with programming now?"
We don't know yet. We know that computers suck. Maybe they can suck less. Innovation begets innovation. Lets try it and see.
Search Engines WEB
· 3 years ago
Just Gave it a Digg - Hope this helps spread the word around
Scoble, while amazing, how would that be efficient as an OS for say a business or something? It to me looks like a game where you can walk around and do things. Maybe I haven't looked far enough into it yet. Just my 2 cents for now. :)
It looks and demos real cool, until you start navigating around in it yourself. Go poke around in Second Life for awhile, then try messing around in Croquet--it's painful. There's no denying that it's sexy, but I think it's an awful metaphor for several types of computing. Having said that, I think that it could be great for simulations.
BoredRabbit
· 3 years ago
They show 3d used for collaboration a lot. Is that supposed to be cool? Because I cannot feel for it. For collaboration you can use Groove, or OneNote, or Communicator, or SharePoint, or even Excel's shared spreadsheets - none requires 3d and all work today.
Ethan
· 3 years ago
I'm really glad you found the demo compelling, Robert. I'm hopeful that Croquet might soon be ready for prime time. It has had a long gestation, though - Lisa Rein has a nice writeup of Alan Kay's demo of an earlier version of the system at the 2003 ETech. (http://www.lisarein.com/alankay/tour.html) I remember being blown away by the demo, but then downloading the system and discovering I couldn't do very much without learning an enormous amount about the underlying system. I think the product is far more mature than that now, but is still going to require someone - either the existing developers, or another group of geeks - to build some applications on top of the OS... and possibly some middleware as well. (Great to see you, BTW...)
The real technical advantage of Croquet is that it is late bound with messaging to connect everything together … both globally around the internet and between the smallest two instances (with nearly the same technique used at every level in between). Code changes can happen in one world while it is running without restart, then globally replicated without complicated expert distribution processes to other users.
It’s dynamic, reprogrammable objects all the way down to the VM & OpenGL calls … and even the VM is reprogrammable and can be run as a simulation in the environment. The simulated VM can be exported and compiled if you really wanted to.
For the user experience, 2nd Life suggests what creativity can be unleashed in collaborative creative environments.
As businesses focus on improving processes, 3D is a good way of simulate, represent, store, share, and present the cause and effect of changes and improvement to processes – especially when driven by live data generated by the business systems themselves. Not everyone is visual learner/worker but Croquet integrates all four media types (text, auditory, 2D graphics, 3D worlds) in one smooth, deeply integrated, programming/UI environment. Croquet lets people of different learning & memory types and styles to collaborate & create together on a single platform. They work in faster dynamic memory, not in static files. (How many files stay on your hard drive that you know nothing about?)
Would someone playing World of Warcraft want to switch to sharing text files and spreadsheets of their worlds to control their worlds just because graphics are “not needed for efficiency”? Someone in a simulation can often process more dynamic, real-time, risk assessment, critical information, & decision support information than with just documents and spreadsheets alone.
Should the military replace all their simulations with spreadsheets because that’s the more efficient way to go? ;-)
Darius
· 3 years ago
Remember, 3D allows one to infinitely scale perspective without gigantic, nested trees or going from page to page to page to page ... to page ... to page ... t o p a g e ... t o ...
Qwerty Maniac
· 3 years ago
omgiwantit
larry rosenthal
· 3 years ago
"first public 3d hyperlink".
well that was probably done in 1994, so come on; google before you blog people. Or at least look at MS own past activities both in house and public.
And BTW the first time a "baby" croquet demo was shown publically that i know of, was by Dave, on panel with me, at Macworld Boston 94 (i think..maybe 1993) when it was a sibling of Virtus Walkthrough.An amazing piece of software from the early 90s that offered many VR like realtime for professional design projects, and self running online net applications. Though not as pretty as directx9 rendering today;) The demo that day sounds indentical to your description,links and spreadsheet page and all:)
For those not invited to see the croquet demo at the "future roadmap" drop by the very public, two years and running http://www.thex3dxperience.com a showcase site for open standards ISO ratified web3d today. and yesterday:) lots of full screen 3d/linked and soon offering MU.- which is also old news in open standards web3d. www.Starbasec3.com - 1996 with the AOL- Aslyum launch. Avatars/3d economy/thousands of users etc.... Cybertown-1996 A million users, just no desire to make money as a biz.;) but certainly having as many "fans-users" as Lindens PR has bought them;) maybe more:)
BTW- in 1996 while in NY, I hosted "Places, not Pages" a rountable forum at SGI. Open/public and "full" of the actual pioneers of web3d technologies. Augmented reality was there presented by NYUs earliest guru and class:), as well as Ester's 3d guy at the time, Jerry M....:) theres alot of good history here folks, and experienced players with more than a decade doing this type of disipline. A "current" CNET story is nice, but be carefull your'e not just yapping among yourselves in "momentary" PR mode:), you never know whos watching the web. Sorry if this post seems to broad a group of comments for just this forums post , but Ive been linking to the blogs of this group, and reading all the comments, and thought at least one reply (other than len bullards correct truths/history lessons at cnet) was needed.
Ive created projects and properties for over a decade using every "web3d" technology offered. Ive created and ran two web3d developer SIGs, NYVRMLSIG,1995-97 and SFWEB3D,2001-2004. Both spoke to hundreds of designers/developers etc. All web3d oriented, so I have a little experience here.
I really suggest any of you interested in web3d as a future "career" path use Google and search out the past, before you "blog" yourselves into looking silly in the present.;)
best. larry r. cube3
larry rosenthal
· 3 years ago
btw- I just hit the homepage of this blog site and read the current blog report. very sorry about your mother. My best thoughts and wishes are with you and your family.
I remember beeing a young kid dreaming that someday all the cool stuff I watched in movies would be available. Amongs it virtual worlds, where you could live another life, just like you wanted it. We have that now. We even have a virtual economy, creating value from something that physically isn’t there. We are gods, creating entire new worlds.
But what's been missing from those virtual worlds if the ability to affect reality. Sure you might make real friends and real money of them but it stops there.
Maybe The Croquet Project is the beginning of virtual worlds that acctually let's us play around with reality. WOW! I'll be following the evolution with excitment!
I think that this kind of protocol subsit more than secondLife... if we thing on the futurem this is the future!... but the state of xperiment today is imposible to think on market or game uses of this tecnologie...
good work!
Nick
· 3 years ago
For the people asking about how a 3d operating system will help them in business tasks.
Ease of use and comfort. It's a visual representation of an environment we already know. You move, you see, you touch, you do. We as humans were not meant to sit in front of a computer screen for 8-10 hours at a time. It creates an anxiety that hinders efficiency. If you can create a visual setting that eliminates that anxiety, the potential workload of your employees can be increased without adding stress.
prasad mandava
· 3 years ago
This is an excellent piece of work. Amazing graphics performance. We have a commercial 3D visual collaboration solution called VCollab whose technology overview is available at the following link.
We need more thinking on how to use Croquet for industrial applications. We would definitely explore ways of using Croquet to help our customers in design collaboration.
All Comments
i think this will shoot us into a new dimension of playing together ;)
While a 3D operating system certainly sounds nice how does that improve my working day to day? Does seeing the numbers in 3D format make me decide faster, or in some way make me see insights into those numbers any different than in a 2D format? The breakthorughs that the Excel team showed on Channel9 is something more of what I want to see. Make it easier for me to analyze the data and I do not believe that seeing the data in 3D format will in any way help me do that. Sorry.
I mean not to give you a hard time but sometimes I wonder if those people who think these things up will try to solve some of the really "hard problems" that Bill Gates mentioned on Channel9. These hard problems are creating a more natural interface. An interface that will naturally understand my voice when prompted. Imagine that interface transferred to other things such as a car. Now how would that change the world? I would imagine quite alot.
I really like the whole idea of a virtual world though. A place where we all can go to escape and create connections. That is a piece of software that is really going to take off. Although I am sure the folks at LucasArts would disagree since they are having such a hard time with Star Wars Galazies taking off.
You are lucky in that you get to see the neatest gadgets before any of the public does.
But, we're years away from having it be a mass market thing. Even though it'll have some pretty sizeable success in the next five years thanks to things like World of Warcraft and Second Life.
Lots and lots of information and downloads which include some videos are available, this is open source openly licensed cross-platform software available at http://www.opencroquet.org/. Come and get it!
Thanks,
Preston Austin
Unfortunately, VRML never could find an audience.
Back then it was mainly the processor power holding us back, but there was another thing lacking:
a mouse, keyboard and 2d screen remains a lousy way to interact with a 3d world. 'salright for a game MAYBE but it is clunky. HMDs are clunky. Solve the 3d interface problem and MS'll be set for another decade of world domination.
We may be closer to that than anyone realizes. VERY cool!
"Sometimes I pinch myself at what I get to be among the first human beings to experience."
From July 2004, at Smalltalk Solutions:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?sh...
It was also demonstrated at Smalltalk Solutions 2003, but I didn't blog that conference.
"While a 3D operating system certainly sounds nice how does that improve my working day to day? Does seeing the numbers in 3D format make me decide faster, or in some way make me see insights into those numbers any different than in a 2D format? "
What an astonishing lack of vision. What do the numbers represent? Most likely a model that can be rendered. Suppose you have a multivariate function you're trying to get a grip on. You could build a surface and explore how the surface looks to gain insight into how your number behave.
Spreadsheets are too abstract - animate your data and make a simulation - then play with it and SEE what happens. Right now computers suck at exploring real world ideas because simulation takes a whole lot of custom programming and is beyond the skills of the average developer much less user.
Croquet is designed to allow people to create and explore worlds with real physics models and rapid model making and collaboration on the order of the web (Teatime sync protocol).
Just because you can't see beyond MS Office doesn't mean there's nothing there. I imagine you probably would have asked "Rows and columns? how does that help me do arithmetic like I do with programming now?"
We don't know yet. We know that computers suck. Maybe they can suck less. Innovation begets innovation. Lets try it and see.
http://digg.com/programming/3D_Collaberative_Op...
Brian
www.irin.co.uk
*nudge*nudge*
:-)
Peer to peer worlds: THIS is cool. A MMORPG without servers! Local worlds, no downtime, etc. Very sweet.
Here's a one and a half hour video presentation by Julian Lombardi and Preston Austin dated 10/13/2005
http://am.mediasite.com/am/viewer/Viewer.aspx?l...
If yes, there doesn't seems to be much clarity..
It’s dynamic, reprogrammable objects all the way down to the VM & OpenGL calls … and even the VM is reprogrammable and can be run as a simulation in the environment. The simulated VM can be exported and compiled if you really wanted to.
For the user experience, 2nd Life suggests what creativity can be unleashed in collaborative creative environments.
As businesses focus on improving processes, 3D is a good way of simulate, represent, store, share, and present the cause and effect of changes and improvement to processes – especially when driven by live data generated by the business systems themselves. Not everyone is visual learner/worker but Croquet integrates all four media types (text, auditory, 2D graphics, 3D worlds) in one smooth, deeply integrated, programming/UI environment. Croquet lets people of different learning & memory types and styles to collaborate & create together on a single platform. They work in faster dynamic memory, not in static files. (How many files stay on your hard drive that you know nothing about?)
Would someone playing World of Warcraft want to switch to sharing text files and spreadsheets of their worlds to control their worlds just because graphics are “not needed for efficiency”? Someone in a simulation can often process more dynamic, real-time, risk assessment, critical information, & decision support information than with just documents and spreadsheets alone.
Should the military replace all their simulations with spreadsheets because that’s the more efficient way to go? ;-)
well that was probably done in 1994, so come on; google before you blog people. Or at least look at MS own past activities both in house and public.
And BTW the first time a "baby" croquet demo was shown publically that i know of, was by Dave, on panel with me, at Macworld Boston 94 (i think..maybe 1993) when it was a sibling of Virtus Walkthrough.An amazing piece of software from the early 90s that offered many VR like realtime for professional design projects, and self running online net applications. Though not as pretty as directx9 rendering today;) The demo that day sounds indentical to your description,links and spreadsheet page and all:)
For those not invited to see the croquet demo at the "future roadmap" drop by the very public, two years and running http://www.the x3dxperience.com a showcase site for open standards ISO ratified web3d today. and yesterday:) lots of full screen 3d/linked and soon offering MU.- which is also old news in open standards web3d. www.Starbasec3.com - 1996 with the AOL- Aslyum launch. Avatars/3d economy/thousands of users etc.... Cybertown-1996 A million users, just no desire to make money as a biz.;) but certainly having as many "fans-users" as Lindens PR has bought them;) maybe more:)
BTW- in 1996 while in NY, I hosted "Places, not Pages" a rountable forum at SGI. Open/public and "full" of the actual pioneers of web3d technologies. Augmented reality was there presented by NYUs earliest guru and class:), as well as Ester's 3d guy at the time, Jerry M....:)
theres alot of good history here folks, and experienced players with more than a decade doing this type of disipline.
A "current" CNET story is
nice, but be carefull your'e not just yapping among yourselves in "momentary" PR mode:), you never know whos watching the web. Sorry if this post seems to broad a group of comments
for just this forums post
, but Ive been linking to the blogs of this group, and reading all the comments, and thought at least one reply (other than len bullards correct truths/history lessons at cnet) was needed.
Ive created projects and properties for over a decade using every "web3d" technology offered. Ive created and ran two web3d developer SIGs, NYVRMLSIG,1995-97 and SFWEB3D,2001-2004. Both spoke to hundreds of designers/developers etc. All web3d oriented, so I have a little experience here.
I really suggest any of you interested in web3d as a future "career" path use Google and search out the past, before you "blog" yourselves into looking silly in the present.;)
best.
larry r.
cube3
-larryr
But what's been missing from those virtual worlds if the ability to affect reality. Sure you might make real friends and real money of them but it stops there.
Maybe The Croquet Project is the beginning of virtual worlds that acctually let's us play around with reality. WOW! I'll be following the evolution with excitment!
André Hedetoft
Movie-geek
Blogging about geek porn over at
http://www.andrehedetoft.com/geekporn
good work!
Ease of use and comfort. It's a visual representation of an environment we already know. You move, you see, you touch, you do. We as humans were not meant to sit in front of a computer screen for 8-10 hours at a time. It creates an anxiety that hinders efficiency. If you can create a visual setting that eliminates that anxiety, the potential workload of your employees can be increased without adding stress.
http://www.vcollab.com/ceoperspective.html
We need more thinking on how to use Croquet for industrial applications. We would definitely explore ways of using Croquet to help our customers in design collaboration.