Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Why open up?

Re: Why open up?

solomonrex — Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:34:16 -0000

Wow, the comments on this post were a disaster. Honestly, this is simple. Microsoft "upgrades" the file formats to ostensibly incorporate new features, but more importantly to drive adoption rates of copies of the new version of Office. That's ok. Office can't stand still, and the new features are often ok.

Microsoft has made the first significant changes to Excel and to the file formats used in Office in roughly 10 years. And they are substantive changes that incorporate substantial new features like the increased cell limit in Excel and the zip/xml file formats. No, the file formats aren't a big deal to consumers - but businesses are the primary customer for Office, for PAINFULLY OBVIOUS REASONS!!! The changes to Excel are really impressive (and it's obvious that competition has helped motivate MS a great deal). And the file format changes are a much bigger deal. There are a million uses for this, and customers that are abandoning VBA in droves can now work in Perl, Java and even C on competitors' systems, and still deliver the 'business standard' MS docs. And anyone who dabbles in HTML for their blog/website/school projects will understand xml enough to open their document in code form and fix problems that they can't seem to solve in Word (which, 20 some odd years later, still seems to happen).

The previous posters made a good point about predictability. What guarantee will businesses have that these file formats will remain relatively stable in the future? That we won't see a proprietary xml standard that better hooks into SQL server 2011? MS should chair a standards body, invite key international customers, and use that format to propose/accept changes and create schedule for changes in the future. If you want to remain a lingua franca, practice inclusion internationally so that the Chinese (among other key markets) don't feel powerless to a foreign power. And so key international businesses feel secure that custom built database and programs tailored to MS's current zip&xml format won't need expensive re-writes for myriad 'security updates' over the course of a year.

Just a thought.

Re: Why open up?

John C. Welch — Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:05:30 -0000

Um, Nick, maybe it's because if you have to upgrade a couple thousand licenses, that cost goes WAY up? If your needs are being handled correctly by Office 2000, then the old "it's not broken, LEAVE IT ALONE" comes into play.

Re: Why open up?

Mikola — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:19:25 -0000

There are two simple questions about
MS openness:
Why did not MS open its Office formats before ?
Why MS haven't done it yet ?
I mean old good Word and Excel files.
Obviously they are de-facto standards. So openning them would be much more real step toward openness.

Re: Why open up?

Nick Ragaz — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:10:27 -0000

Keep fighting, Scoble -- we'll all be better off when people upgrade away from clunkers like Office 2000. I personally don't understand why people resist upgrading Microsoft software (on Windows, anyway). I'd do almost anything that might help if/when I was forced to work with that stuff more often. :)

Re: Why open up?

J. Random Poster — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:03:43 -0000

I don't hear many people saying that Office *is* dead, just that it *should be* dead.

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:03:37 -0000

Another good question: The most salient reasons I've seen posted for this choice (whether or not I buy them--I don't!) are: 1. it's good for the users and developers, 2. although we own the code behind the applications and formats we want the users to "own" their data and documents throughout history no matter what changes occur to platforms or applications, and 3. we want to enable ISVs to profit from and improve the ecosystem of Window applications (ha, ha!.)

(Of course, 1 is simple just 2 and 3 together, but so far you are doing a bad job of thumping the "It has nothing to do with Massachusetts" drum.)

Okay, anyway, to the question: Having said that, is this not true of all of your formats and proprietary systems? If this is true, should you not also do the same with Exchange's datastore, with DirectX, with XAML, and any number of other technolgoies?

If you want me (and hopefully anyone else) to believe you (that it has nothing to do with Massachusetts), you have to explain to me why Office formats are uniquely different from your other tech.

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:55:16 -0000

Scoble, I said you weren't. You told me you weren't and I believed you and thanked you. Those previous posts were tests and questions because I could see that others were posting and I wasn't. Why several comments got lost in the ether, I don't know.

Oh, another question on the standards front: SMTPE still hasn't finalized VC-1 approval yet, huh? Will that ever happen?

If the Office formats take longer to standardize as expected as VC-1 has, will you delay the release of Office until it is standardized since you have already pledged the two will occur at the same time?

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:52:30 -0000

"Good. Now Microsoft Office must compete based on merit rather than file format compatibility and OpenOffice.org must compete based on merit rather than “use us because our format is open”."

I find this statement hilarious. You think this is a good statement of the case? Why doesn't Microsoft Office have to compete based on file format compatibility? They haven't moved one inch to support other formats even though two companies and Sun have demonstrated a file format convertor between the 2 formats in question. Why does Microsoft get to avoid the file format issue? Because they are big? Because they want everyone to use their format so they get ECMA to call it a standard? How does that eliminate the issue for them?

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:44:31 -0000

"IT people don’t live in Excel like Finance and Accounting people do, and it is arrogant for IT people to tell their users what is and what isn’t good enough for them.

Finance folks, for the most part, are a conservative, schedule driven bunch [month end, quarter end, year end], who need to know that their tools will work for them. Like it or not, OpenOffice is too much of a question mark in their minds."

Right, Finance people don't care, they just work within their existing systems. If IT can test and provide the tools, spreadsheets, reports, etc... that Finance needs, Finance doesn't care. Finance also is usually involved in purchasing decisions (OO wins there) and data storage for auditing purposes (if governments or anyone starts migrating to truly "open" formats, OO would win there too.)

Re: Why open up?

scobleizer — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:44:09 -0000

Goebbels: I'm not blocking your comments. I'll get answers to those questions.

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:41:19 -0000

A bunch of questions:

1. Will the Office formats be frozen? For how long? If Microsoft modifies the format will they do so on the same timeframe as standard submission and approval?

2. Will Microsoft allow others to modify the "standard" or will they continue to maintain sole control?

3. If the standard is "open" and you "will not sue", does that mean portions of the spec (accessibility, etc...) can be used by others in other formats?

4. Why is your company so afraid of supporting ODF when other companies have already demonstrated the ability to convert Office to ODf and vice versa?

5. Are we still at the Press Release phase or can we look at the new license(s) / "will not sue" covenant? How can / why should we be reassured if we don't have a license or some legalese to compare with the PR?

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:30:05 -0000

Well, Scoble, I guess that confirms that for some reason my posts are getting held up... Don't know if others are seeing the same thing... (?) Anyway, guess Wordpress is acting up again or summin.

Re: Why open up?

Stephane Rodriguez — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:49:34 -0000

"Stephane Rodriguez says that OpenOffice is good enough for these people. If that were the case, they would be using it."

OpenOffice 2.0 came out just recently, so what do you expect. 2.0 is massively better than 1.x

Re: Why open up?

Mark Beaupre — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:12:25 -0000

Just because you have open file formats, it doesn't mean that they will add value for folks in finance.

Once upon a time, paper was the file format for spreadsheets. Paper was an open standard [flat and made from trees] and it was portable [you could fold it or roll it up], and you could write on it with a pen or pencil, but by itself the format didn't add a lot of value.

There is such a disconnect between IT folks [especially the open source/no-MS IT folks] and the people in Finance they are charged with supporting. Stephanie Rodriguez says that OpenOffice is good enough for these people. If that were the case, they would be using it.

IT people don't live in Excel like Finance and Accounting people do, and it is arrogant for IT people to tell their users what is and what isn't good enough for them.

Re: Why open up?

BlogReader — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:56:36 -0000

Now that I've thought about it this whole discussion of "file formats" is old world thinking. Google's going to eclipse this trouble by just having you store your documents on their servers.

Then they'll offer APIs for you to get at your data in different ways. No legacy file formats to worry about. No MSFT file format lock in to worry about. Granted you have to worry about your network connection to Google, but that's probably why they are setting up hundreds of data centers.

Google's online office has MSFT running scared. There's no need to hire IT staff to maintain a file server and permissions -- google does that for you. So there's no need to hire a dorky MSCE. That means less "education" revenue for Microsoft. Also one less Windows server.

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:38:53 -0000

test

Re: Why open up?

BlogReader — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:43:14 -0000

So far, I haven’t been impressed with anything Ozzie has done. He has good ideas, but poor implimentation.

I was a Notes admin around 1997 and it was pretty nifty back then. Could do anything with it, from email to workflow. The only thing holding it back was LotusScript, they should of also allowed some other languages in there and more developers would of made programs for it.

As such Notes was always a niche player which didn't offer the developer much in the way of cross training skills. You were a "real" programmer or you were a Notes one.

Re: Why open up?

BlogReader — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:40:27 -0000

He was using Excel to fiddle with numbers. He told me he loved Office and couldn’t live without it. He also told me that Starbucks opens five new coffee shops every day

Huh, they open 13 a week. Must be some misplaced Excel function he was looking at.

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:24:08 -0000

has scobie banned goebbels?

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:15:23 -0000

Why can't I post now?

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:14:07 -0000

"You just need to use the download file and the latest Microsoft Media Player."

You mean the one released 2 and a half years ago? (I know there have been subsequent bug fixes, but really there have been no truly new releases... The latest upgrade only supports a codec from 4 years ago... Really...) "Latest" is about the most absurd and offensive adjective you can use in such a statement. "First", "only", and (possibly) "last" would have been more accurate.

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:09:45 -0000

Have you stopped comments in some posts? LAME!!

Anyway...

"As to the MA question, I think this answers that better than I could:"

"The obvious first take on this submission will be all about Massachussets and whether or not we were "made" to do this by them. The real story is no we were not. The concerns raised in MA are important as is our relationship with them, but it is important to remember that 2 years ago this month we made the Office 2003 XML Reference Schema available under extremely favorable terms for implementers. The discussions around the State of MA unquetionably put a fine point on the discussions about the future of how document formats were handled, but they were not the direct catalyst of this action on our part. "

That answers nothing at all. It's a timeline. Actually, it just points out 2 separate events. There is no argument or logic to that statement.

Yes, you released a Schema 2 years ago. So what? A schema did not mean that any application on any platform could read and write Office documents without licenses or the use of patents.

Which is why you were rejected by Massachusetts.

Which is why you are making this change NOW.

Re: Why open up?

Scott — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:52:23 -0000

Well, I was on that single OS that Groove talked to. You know why I never adopted it? It was too freakin' hard to figure out. Had to sign up, had to figure out where my document fit. Had to wait around until someone else was online so we could "collaborate". Not to mention the thing was S L O W.

I was not impressed with Groove at all. So far, I haven't been impressed with anything Ozzie has done. He has good ideas, but poor implimentation.

Hmmmmmm, maybe he fits right in at Microsoft? ;)

Re: Why open up?

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:47:44 -0000

"The guy from Starbucks hadn’t. Which explains just how big a challenge it is to get people to upgrade. Getting people to pay attention just isn’t easy. If it were the market would flip to new things every few years."

Why should an executive even care about a product not coming out for a year? Nevermind look at a geek site with lame videos...

"And converting them to a format that can play on the iPod isn’t that big a deal. I even printed a list of how to do it about a week ago."

But your format choice sucks anyway. Why should we do be conversion work you claim is so easy? Why don't you do it? Even with a delay,t hat would be appreciated... Oh, that's right, your company won't let you use anything besides Windows formats.

Re: Why open up?

Jake — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:52:44 -0000

I'll second Welch's statement.

Ozzie may have had a problem getting companies to adopt Groove, but he brought on some of that trouble himself. Considering the fact that MANY collaborative efforts (client software development, service development, web development) take place on multiple platforms, only supporting Windows was a big reason to NOT use Groove.

In many ways, Sharepoint follows that model.

Thus driving us away from that, too.