Robert - stay with us, your mission is the right one-- "I want better software. More software. More geek toys. More things that improve my life." Your efforts to publicize what inventors are doing, open a door so that the world gets more exposed to their ideas...stick with it. Blogs are the modern Agora, unruly at times but ultimately smart people learn who to ignore and who is worth listening to. You're helping to give us all a better chance of ignoring the noise, and seeing and hearing the worthwhile speaker. Down with the mob, long live the inventors!
barfoo
· 3 years ago
I'm still not clear on one thing though,
did you wish you had never looked at the blogs today or not?
Richard Brownell
· 3 years ago
Robert: that's the real world you're seeing come in here. If the goal is for everybody to be blogging, podcasting, whatever, this is what you will see. The world is not a pretty place. There are a lot of angry people in it and that anger will be reflected online, perhaps even amplified because there is no filter online. People lose their inhibitations more than at a drunken frat party.
But still, much like the rise in GOOD blogs was not because blogging is good, neither is this anger-fest because blogging is bad. Blogging is neutral. So wishing you hadn't read blogs today has nothing to do with blogs and everything to do with wishing you hadn't heard what real people have to say.
That is not meant as a critique of you though so don't please don't take it as such! There are times when everybody just wants to tune out what people of the world is saying because it isn't pretty.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert, your complaining about people being mean is silly. You sit down and write deliberately inflammatory stuff, nigh troll-bait some days, yet you are CONTINUALLY amazed when you get..well, an inflammatory response. You used to be a fundie, you must still remember that bit about "as ye reap, so shall ye sow"?
And lord knows, Winer's never shied away from a fight, or being a sarcastic, snide ass any chance he got. So now he's getting the same thing back.
If you're going to be an opinionated, sarcastic bugger, then stop bitching when you get it back, because well, you ask for it.
I may get TIRED of the flames in the comments on some of my posts, (dear GOD, but Star Wars fans never let it go), but I never complain about "the evil mean people". I know what my style is going to create, and I accept that. If I ever wish for a different reaction, I'll write differently.
Roland
· 3 years ago
Never liked attacks, never learned how to rant. Always liked software, always want to know how it is made.
You are like Dave in that you are Posta Maxima. In the beginning you guys were the Link Masters, driving the blog-o-sphere. At present, the Borg Hive is so large, the number of voices has become too much to be handled by a single human mind, even if it aided by aggregator technology.
At times of crisis, it is good to unplug for a while, and spent some time in the real world. In the past, people just to call these periods 'vacations'. It is a bit of an art, this vacation thing, but try it, and keep trying it, and you will find that it recharges you in more ways than one. And who knows, you might even like the digital domain afterwards. :-)
Thanks for the human voice.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
John: I have never gone after someone the way these people have. Please name an instance where I've said anyone is an idiot, evil, or stupid? If I have, I'm sorry, but I do try to add value here, not tear down people, even ones I think are not helping their cause.
Being a bit sensationalistic is not an excuse to attack personally. If I disagree with their ideas, I'll say so, but I won't try to make them feel bad.
But, this is something I'll try to do a lot less of. Just focus on the people doing cool stuff.
Find the posts made by Dave Winer. After you've read a few of those, maybe you'll see why he sets so many people off. Has Dave contributed? Sure, in many places. He's also impossible to work with, and he's irritated the heck out of a lot of very reasonable people. I'd count Tim Bray and Rogers Cadenhead as two of the most reasonable people I read, and I disagree with both of them - on different things - quite a bit. Dave has pushed both of them away, through some of the most venal, mean spirited attacks I've seen anywhere.
As I said on my blog - if Dave wants to know why he's disliked so much, he should buy a mirror.
Ross
· 3 years ago
Robert, I don't think it is so much people going after Dave, I think it is a case of 'what goes around comes around'. You can't take the kind of attitude to people that Mr W does and *not* expect to get any grief back - and whilst he is publically denigrating friends and colleagues do you expect them to just take it and walk away? Because he invented something? How many other tech inventors have a bad attitude and feel the need to lash out at people sp publically and voilently when they disagree with them? TimBL? Bill Gates? Vint Cerf? Steve Ballmer (oops).
Dave will get the respect he is due, when he stops acting like a child.
Matt S
· 3 years ago
Hey Robert, don't despair. Yes, there is a lot of mob mentality out there. Take a look at the political half of memeorandum to get an idea.
But don't give up on the medium. The ad hominem stuff won't go away but it also doesn't have a lot of lasting value. Do what Microsoft generally does -- focus more on customers and products than detractors.
Diversity and chaos are two sides of the same coin. People like me will spend our "attention dollars" on the blogs that actually add value.
Jeff Davis
· 3 years ago
Robert,
Quit whining. It ain't so bad. You are doing good work. Nothing fatal went on today in the blogosphere. There is a disagreement and folks line up behind who they want to line up behind. Forget it. Just keep on keeping on. Have a nice glass of Chardonnay, hug your wife and enjoy life.
met
· 3 years ago
Or Dave could have just retired without the hoopla. When you want the limelight you have to take the bad things with it.
mcdmcblog
· 3 years ago
Robert,
Your consideration for a maligned friend is admirable.
It must be difficult to see Dave attacked so vehemently.
I disagree with Dave's actions in this situation but I have made every attempt to persuade the b'verse to gently ask Dave to try to work it out with Rogers.
Rogers did create some code with and for Dave and there's ample evidence of the effort at opml.cadenhead.org. Dave paid $5,000 up front with a clear expectation that the details could settle overtime. Dave is documented on the site stating that Rogers did another miraculous programming job.
Consider the language of the letter Rogers recieved from Dave's lawyer on a friday that demanded return of all deposit money, and the code and any rights to all work performed.
I expect you to continue to stand by your friend but please try to understand the violent reaction that Dave generates when his "agreement" language states:
Consultant agrees that all copyrightable material, notes, records, drawings, designs, inventions, improvements, developments, discoveries and trade secrets (collectively, "Inventions") conceived, made or discovered by Consultant, solely or in collaboration with others, during the period of this Agreement which relate in any manner to the business of the Company that Consultant may be directed to undertake, investigate or experiment with or which Consultant may become associated with in work, investigation or experimentation in the line of business of Company in performing the Services hereunder, are the sole property of the Company. In addition, any Inventions which constitute copyrightable subject matter shall be considered "works made for hire" as that term is defined in the United States Copyright Act. Consultant further agrees to assign (or cause to be assigned) and does hereby assign fully to the Company all such Inventions and any copyrights, patents, mask work rights or other intellectual property rights relating thereto.
I wouldn't sign such a document after doing 90% of the work. I'd take my work down another path. But if I was confronted with a decision like the one Rogers faced when Mar 15th rolled around (beware the Ides of March) I'd quite likely use the full power of my blog to ask for a little help when the Overlords came to take away my property.
Dave's contention that Rogers work is a derivative product of his code is something that might be arbitrated but it's clear to me that he's not dealing in good faith with a contractor and it's likely that no arbitration will follow...
This is clearly a by-product of the RSS issues and Dave following through on his treats against Rogers for acting independently.
Reasonable people act reasonably.
People being victimized scream for help.
There seems to be a victim here and it's not Dave Winer. Dave's injuries are a consequence of his behaviors and tactics with a business partner.
I do think you for allowing comments on the situation. I do not have the ability to comment at Dave's site. I would encourgage him strongly to change his position on this matter. I only wish Dave had some friends that would counsel him to use his power more wisely.
Read that post specifically, especially the end of it. In that light, doesn't Dave's action look pretty bad?
Sid Steward
· 3 years ago
I've been too busy to read blogs -- lucky me! Idle hands are the devil's tools, and all that.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
James: I'm staying out of this one.
Ethan
· 3 years ago
Cause I know how this game is played. Once Dave is outta the way, they are coming after me. Or you. Or your friends.
Paranoid much? WTF did you get into in Austin? Nevermind stopping reading blogs, I recommend detox.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert, you don't get it...
you don't get to control the reaction to your writing. You stick your finger in the collective eye, and you expect that the reaction will be one you approve of.
That's somewhat...unrealistic. In your case, you just provoke for hit counts, maintaining your status, and attention. Dave's a jackass to far too many people to count, and like a long-provoked dog, it's biting him on the ass. I'm sorry he's in the middle of a shitstorm, but he's been creating it for years, decades even, and now it's come back to him.
If you want nothing but kindness, you must be nothing but kind. That definition has never applied to Dave, at least not on-line.
Ben Houston
· 3 years ago
It is my opinion that you Robert Scoble are relatively corrupt with regards to Dave Winer. You basically owe him a lot for where you are today. I think that you are willing to bow down and pay him respects when he needs it even if he doesn't deserve it. The Web 2.0 buzz machine is corrupt in this respect. Your attacks on the new A-list are nothing real, just spin and bs. I think that your blog clique is trying its best to stick together (whether you have to lie about others to do it or not) because that is where the power comes from -- the synergy. Anyways, I'm done following your blog.
Ethan
· 3 years ago
I’m staying out of this one.
Previously:
Oh, and the “A” in the “New A List” stands for Attack or, maybe, “Ad Hominem.”
See previous comment. That's all I've got for this thread, if for no other reason than it's all I need. Flush.
Jeremy Wright
· 3 years ago
I'm not taking sides in this. One time I stood up for Dave (over the closure of the webogs.com blogs) and I got attacked from both sides (including Dave) for it.
I stay away from Dave (or, to quote his post today, I stay away from teh "virtual Dave").
The guy that walked through the restaurant in Palo Alto seemed like a nice enough guy to me. Maybe one day I'll get to meet the "real" Dave. If I do, I hope I can ignore the bad experiences I've had with the "virtual" Dave.
Either way, good on your for standing up for your friend. And good on you for not getting into the fight. Both great decisions mate :)
Chris Heuer
· 3 years ago
Robert - thank you for trying to raise the quality of the discussion above that of personal attacks. It is something that has been coming up more and more lately and it is unfortunate.
We need to set examples for how to deal with this so that the community standards shift from that of name calling and demeaning each other back to reasonable discourse focused on the issues. I don't know if it will ever happen fully, because, as I have said before, there are always going to be assholes out there somewhere shitting on other people.
As you said, I don't know about the facts of the matter here, but this is exactly the sort of issue which is a perfect case study on decorum in the blogosphere and the nature of public disputes. Because the blog/comment system enables it so easily, we are able to see the long tail of low value commentary much more easily - I dont necessarily think this is an attack mob, though I could see how it would FEEL like one. I just think that all the people who have felt wronged by Dave in some way are expressing their emotions and frustrations. Cadenhouse even admits to being an ardent supporter of Dave previously, most likely behaving in the same manner on Dave's behalf instead of against him, but I don't know those facts - just pointing out the possibility that this is subjective and shifting.
Of course, that just muddies the waters of the point I am trying to convey.
The bottom line is that people like yourself have the power to influence a lot of others to refocus the dialogue on the issues rather than resort to name calling. But its hard, so most people will take the easy way out. Instead of laying out an argument as to why somebody said or did something wrong, or behaved in a way that is pereceived to be inappropriate, they just call the other party names which is really just like putting some Crisco on that slippery slope...
I have been trying to make this point for the last several years, but am often dismissed by those who believe in the free form chaos of the Web - by those who say "F___ off - its our Web and we will say what we want". It is a tough line to manage, because to a degree they are right - free speech means people can and should be able to say what they want. But when the speech is of such a derogatory nature that it not only prevents the dialogue from moving forward but puts everyone 2 steps back, I don't think it plays well.
We should all learn to be more respectful of each other and to focus our energy on tearing down ideas, not people. Robert, I hope you are able to move this idea forward better than I have been able to...
dahowlett
· 3 years ago
There is a much more important issue here. I've read both sides of the 'argument' and they read like two strangers trying to tell the same story. Both cannot be right.
There doesn't seem to be any basis for agreement. If, as seems the case, this has become a legal wrangle, then the worst possible place to try and rsolve it is in the court of public opinion. And in that sense, I'd say both sides have made grave errors of judgment. Grays by pushing it into the public domain in the first place and Winer for responding.
How on earth that mess gets sorted out is anyones guess. The real winners will likely be the lawyers. As usual in he said/he said arguments.
Jason B.
· 3 years ago
Hey Robert, This must be pretty personal for you. I don't think blogging is the right medium for this type of argument. I don't know whether Dave is right on this one or not, but there were some thing which were said that made his character seem a little less good willed or a good person so to speak. I guess business is business, but I think you make a case for dirty business having no place on blogs. I don't know if it has anything to do with A lists, or B lists, we all pull our pants up in the morning.
We have to cherish a world where the inventors are giving some elbow room to do what they do best. The thoughtful ones need not have their thoughts stolen by indecency. However, should the inventing mind move to harm others for personal gain, they stand to face the same punishment that all others would get and deserve to get, I don't know whether that's public humiliation though, and I don't think it has any place in today's blogs.
shel israel
· 3 years ago
Robert,
You taught me to stop blogging when I'm either depressed or pissed off. I think it's time for you to take a break. Just walk away for a while and let the Chihuahuas nip on someone else's buttocks for a few days.
shel israel
· 3 years ago
Robert,
You taught me to stop blogging when I'm either depressed or pissed off. I think it's time for you to take a break. Just walk away for a while and let the Chihuahuas nip on someone else's buttocks for a few days.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Chris: I doubt it. Having a Microsoft guy lecture people about what is and isn't appropriate on the Web generally is NOT a good way to get mobs to sit down and be quiet! :-)
Shel: actually, I'm thinking hard about this. I probably will take a week off.
Dave
· 3 years ago
Robert, two thoughts of your's spark a reaction in me.
"Protect the inventor. Protect the guy who brought us SOAP, XML-RPC, RSS, OPML, podcasting, and a few other things here and there....One thing on this case: one guy called in the mob, the other guy didn’t."
Various words immediately jump to mind. Integrity. Private. Public. Creator. Coder. Agendas.
Surely you aren't implying that Rogers isn't due something here. Also, while he may be guilty for taking things public a bit more than many would, it isn't exactly like he "called in the mob".
He was faced with a deadline stated in a very nasty letter sent from Winer's lawyer, a letter that resulted from Rogers' lawyer advising him to not sign an agreement... and decided to make it public.
The reaction of other bloggers antagonized things to a point of becoming a mob. But no way can you call Rogers' post "calling in the mob".
As for that word integrity... and agendas. Every person has an agenda. You. Me. Everyone. But it's HOW you work at furthering your agenda that brings up the word integrity. In a direct comparison of these two parties over the last few years, Winer suffers. He posts very inflammatory things then retracts them like they never existed. He doesn't allow two-way conversations (your term) by allowing comments on Scripting.Com. He changes definitions of agreements on control of RSS with Harvard.
These can't help but make one wonder what his real agenda is regarding his recent posts of "retiring", this "virtual Dave", and his dealings with Rogers.
Second quote:
"No one kept their head — the knives and guns just came out in this street fight. No one called both sides and did some real reporting. No one added any value. "
[Insert wry laugh here.]
Sorry about that. Couldn't help it - my warped sense of humor combined with my outlook on life and business and overhype.
Wasn't it just about a year ago that the big meme was "citizen journalism"?
Enough said on that point.
Look Robert, I applaud you for sticck up for a friend in need. I understand you current anguish on things. And you are right - stay out of it. This isn't your fight. Nor mine. Nor, well, anyone except Dave and Rogers.
Meaning you are also right - others are delighting in meddling in this way more than anyone should feel comfortable about.
orcmid
· 3 years ago
I agree with Robert sticking to what matters to him.
With regard to private disputes, they get resolved privately, sometimes with the help of lawyers and judges, but I don't any reason to want to vote. And I feel like I'm being put in the middle when someone expects me to take sides on something for which I can never know all of the relevant facts.
I've thought about this, and I think what I will do is stay out of private disputes and also not give any public voice to them if I can help it.
Todd Zeigler
· 3 years ago
Blogosphere is plagued by a lot of folks looking for negative attention - 3rd graders acting up in class to get people to notice.
See it for what it is and avoid the pissing matches. Engage with the people who disagree with you intelligently and ignore the name callers. I think you've inspired a lot of people (the silent majority).
Michiel
· 3 years ago
blog rule #1: anyone proclaiming he's A-list more than once a week: IS NOT A-LIST. In fact, anyone still dividing the blogs in the net is definitely not a-list. I move we scrap the whole a-list meme; it's gotten boring. Also: Dave REALLY should step back. And anyone working at MS should NEVER get involved in a discussion about web standards: god knows MS has done their best to kill any open standard. HTML, Java, or maybe you want to talk about the cross-platform capability of activeX? oh, right, THERE IS NONE.
RSS is already out there. It works. Extensions work. Since this BS surfaced I suddenly understand and sympathise with Atom, which I never got. The clue: all these people know and worked with Dave. And THAT's why they split.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Michiel: who cares who is on the A list anyway. It doesn't mean anything. It hasn't made me wealthier. Or better looking.
Dave
· 3 years ago
Something completely OT, but maybe it really isn't since this is an example of all that is good about blogging:
How did I discover it? Robert posted a link to a blog that link to this blog.
Again, could be OT, but everything that IS good about living in these times!
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
It's so depressing to see people I admire in conflict. We should all have tried to pay more attention to Mena Trott's message.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert,
If you didn't care about the A-List, and being on it, you would talk FAR more often about stuff that isn't blogging. Your own orbit around the subject casts severe doubt on your claims of "not caring about the A-List".
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
John: at some point I did care. Lately, though, I've become convinced it just isn't something worth getting onto and, if you are on, staying on. All it does is generate email from marketers trying to get you to talk about their products and you get lots of people in your comments telling you what a jerk you are.
Wheee, yes sirrreeee. I'm having fun now!
Not. Which is why I'm gonna take some time off and hang with my wife. Have fun!
Ron K. Jeffries
· 3 years ago
Robert,
Your points are well taken. But just because someone (Dave W.) is your friend doesn't mean they are incapable of doing something REALLY dumb.
In this case, Dave W. has gone to the mat against Roger C., a guy who has been a strong and vocal supporter of Dave W when others were less generous.
Being extremely smart and creative (as Dave W absolutely is) doesn't give them license to be vindictive.
I don't know Dave except through his writings. I see two Daves, as someone pointed out. One is your friend, and he's a GREAT, witty and funny guy.
It's the "other" Dave people are jumping on.
kr8tr
· 3 years ago
Robert,
I have to agree with you that people are being viscous in the attack against Dave. But let's face it - Dave is a genious, AND he is an asshole. I respect Dave, I don't bash him, and I DO NOT like him. But I read him every day. Because I respect him.
Wnhy is he an asshole? Because he bought into who "Dave" is. He bought the hype, he turned the corner, and now it's not primatrily what Dave can do for us, but what can Dave do that makes him look good to us.
Harsh.
Yep.
But then so is this recent email exchange (taken from memory, but I know Dave can pull up the origionls out of his RSS/OPML history from hell.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Ron: let the first one among you who haven't done anything dumb throw the first flame! :-)
kr8tr
· 3 years ago
Robert,
I have to agree with you that people are being viscious in the attack against Dave. But let's face it - Dave is a genious, AND he is a complete asshole. OK - he bought your kids a computer - maybe if he bought mine one, I would be more obliging to him. I respect Dave, I don't bash him, but I DO NOT like him. But I read him every day. Because I respect him.
Wnhy is he an asshole? Because he bought into who "Dave" is. He bought the hype, he turned the corner, and now it's not primatrily about what Dave can do for "us", but what can Dave do that makes him look good to "us". "He" is "them". And we are all afraid of "them". Dave *IS* and ass (and I bet he even realizes it on occasion).
Harsh.
Yep.
But then so is this recent email exchange (taken from memory, but I know Dave can pull up the origionls out of his RSS/OPML history from hell).
I told Dave I like reading his TECHNICAL blog entries, but not his personal or political ones. I asked him if he would consider making a second blog for non tech stuff. His response? Basically it was: "Fuck no, never". Not "thanks for reading", not "I understand we have a difference of opinion", NOT any sign that I was a SIGNIFICANT person to him - I'm not. And that's why Dave needs to shut the hell up - he no longer (if he ever did) talks for the user, the guy on the line, the gal at the help desk. Dave talks to and for Dave. Dave is a narcissist. Really. Argue if you will - I've known lots of them
Now that is fine - it's his blog, and he is free to do what he wants with it - but when he treats people like they are less than people, then he becomes less than a person to me. And when that happens he loses respect, and those that still respect him also lose respect. You are the people you associate with.
Bottom line. Dave DOES need to quit blogging. He is either too bitter, or too stuck on himself to add any real value anymore beyong writing new specifications (please keep doing that). But please - DO NOT think you are my voice, or that I care what you think anymore - you've burned that bridge Dave, and not just with me. Perhaps, finally, you've burned too many bridges.
And this isn't even about the law suit challenge - it's about who Dave was ten years ago, and what Dave THINKS he is today. Ten years ago, he was a better Dave.
Anyway, that's my rant.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
generate email from marketers trying to get you to talk about their products
I thought that was all aparta the 'naked conversations'. I think someone wrote a book on that.
lots of people in your comments telling you what a jerk you are.
Can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen. So all blogs are good for be marketing spam and "hate" commenters? Even I won't go that far. Burnout gone to your head, it happens. Stop taking it all so seriously, you point-blank asked for the marketing, and comments are half community-theater performances.
Thick skin, thick skin. It got you conference travel miles serious, various other random junkets, freebies, money, power, a coolish (tho inept) shaky-cam Microsoft jobbie, that's all gravy. O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! The petty blog wars, be not your fight.
All mimsy were the blogrogoves, and the mome commentraths outgrabe.
Robert Sayre
· 3 years ago
Scoble, I think you are right, and your post resonated with me. You can hit my blog if you want to read more.
Feel better.
anon
· 3 years ago
My philosophy? I want better software. More software. More geek toys. More things that improve my life.
And yet you take money from and defend your convicted monopolist felon employer.
DrumsNWhistles
· 3 years ago
I read many of the so-called A-listers' blogs because I am a geek at heart and find them interesting. I don't belong to the club, but I'm familiar with the players. As a person who has been involved in community for many years, I know that flame wars are part of online life and can flare up, even between good friends.
I also know that whatever the real story is, it isn't all out on the blogs.
I don't understand why anyone would publish a lawyer's letter on their site and I don't understand why people think that airing dirty laundry in public is a good thing. It's a little like watching your friends go through a sloppy, ugly divorce. You hate to see it happen but dont' seem to get away from it.
Sites like Tailrank and Memeorandum just drag it out longer.
I read the comments on cadenhead.org and had the same reaction as you. There were far too many ad hominem attacks, similar to the one on you and Microsoft just above mine. It does nothing to further the conversation and the conversation itself is one that would best be held in private without the rest of us participating.
I hope that happens, because what I want to read about is all the cool things coming for geeks like me, not personal and/or business disputes between the "players".
I hope you feel better soon.
Ian Betteridge
· 3 years ago
"No one called both sides and did some real reporting"
That's right, Robert. Why should they? There's no money in it.
The difference between "professional journalism" and "citizen journalism" comes down to money, because money makes it possible for someone to concentrate time and resources on a story. A professional journalist covering this would ring Dave, ring Rogers, do some digging, get to the bottom of it. Someone who doesn't have the time because they're not being paid to do it won't do it.
"One thing on this case: one guy called in the mob, the other guy didn’t. That says volumes to me."
That's actually a bit rich. There have been plenty of occasions in the past when Dave has "called in the mob" as you put it. And posting a threatening legal letter - which is what Rogers did - is pretty much standard practice on the internet these days.
At the end of the day, Robert, THIS is the wisdom of crowds that many folks, including you, have been talking about. Crowds become lynchmobs and witch hunts at the drop of a hat, and the internet amplifies that. Anyone who'd ever done researching into the psychology of crowd behaviour could have explained this - but instead, a band of techno-utopians somehow thought that crowds on the internet would act differently to other crowds.
The only time that crowds become wise is when they're mediated through money: Markets, not crowds, are never wrong.
Ian Betteridge
· 3 years ago
Incidentally, Robert, as you're his friend it might be worth reading Rogers' comment (http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2881/le...) where he explains why he didn't sign the contract that Dave offered. If you could get that message through to Dave, it might help to clear up this mess.
"He can't apply the same standards to himself that he applies to others," says humorist and programmer Greg Knauss, who last year created the WinerLog parody site (since taken over by a much angrier and less funny group of contributors who write under the collective name Zaphod). "He'll launch into people really hard, doing over-the-top, needless stuff, like posting sexual slurs about Rogers Cadenhead when they disagreed, but then he says there is to be no flaming on his own site." Cadenhead, the author of best-selling books on Java programming and other software topics, disagreed with Winer over the propriety of the Third Voice site-editing technology; Winer responded by pointing to a childhood picture of Cadenhead on the author's site and writing, "See the little boy? Want to have sex with him?"
Did Dave ever apologize publicly for this? I think not.
Adam
· 3 years ago
Scoble, I read your blog for the tech. Your purpose as you stated is to show new, cool stuff that makes your life better. Please keep that up.
People will always get into pissing matches. What's the best thing to do? Stay on the sidelines. Don't get involved. If you keep showing off the cool stuff and are honest about it, it works itself out.
Really appeciate the tech that you have shown off. Most of my friends are amazed at what I pass along to them from this blog.
Dan
· 3 years ago
It seems rather presumptuous to assume any responsibility for the blogosphere at large. If not for you some other schmuck would have arisen in your stead, and after you leave a thousand more will jockey for your place on the list.
Given the sheer number of people who Mr. Winer has wounded and enraged, I can't help wondering if all of them can really be in the wrong or if the blame more likely rests on the one person whom they have in common.
Ross
· 3 years ago
"Winer responded by pointing to a childhood picture of Cadenhead on the author’s site and writing, “See the little boy? Want to have sex with him?”"
WTF?!?! What the hell did he hope to achieve by doing that? Robert, if you are truly his friend, and I suspect you are - take him to get therapy.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
It's just Dave. You should have heard the stream of hate when Apple didn't make Frontier the language for Apple Events.
It's like this...Dave can say whatever Dave wants because Dave is always right.
If you're not Dave, then shut up, and live with that inferior state, quietly, so you don't disturb Dave and the greatness that is Dave.
He may be MUCH different in person, but on line? That's Dave. ANd if he IS much different in person, that's actually worse, because then it's just Internet Balls
Karim
· 3 years ago
You can only take the "protect the inventor" thing so far. If Thomas Alva Edison had gone on a killing spree and had been caught red-handed, OF COURSE he'd say, "I'm *Edison,* I invented the *lightbulb,* you can't touch meeee!!!"
And he would have gone to the gas chamber anyway.
(And ironically, the gas chamber would have been lit with electric light bulbs.)
I understand you want to stick up for your friend, too. That's natural.
But look at the pingback Dave Winer gave you on this post (comment 40). "Scoble laments all the flamers in the thread on Rogers Cadenhead’s site, but isn’t it obvious that the purpose of his post was to get a flamewar going?"
Dude.
You're apparently one of his few allies and supporters, and when you write a post *supporting* him, calling him a great inventor and personal friend, he accuses you of WANTING TO START A FLAMEWAR. He accuses you of *betraying* him.
Maybe that should tell you something?
"No one called both sides and did some real reporting?" You're friends with Winer, and can probably get a hold of Cadenhead. Talk to both of them for 10 minutes and do some real reporting on your blog. Stop cursing the darkness and light a candle.
Rob Fay
· 3 years ago
Although we embrace the social software scene, collaborative sites, email, im, and the like, none of these tools replaces face-to-face communciation.
Sure, it brings our world closer together. I get to connect with like-minded people who I wouldn't be able to meet otherwise. However, how often are the people you "met" online identically the same as when you finally get to meet them in person.
We have a long way to go because although electronic tools for communciation becomes more sophisticated, it still complicates the simplicity of face-to-face communication.
Sure, in Geekdom, I'm sure some of us communicate more effectively via a keyboard and computer monitor rather than meeting face-to-face, but that's a poor excuse.
In the case with Winer and Cadenhead, I really cannot comment because I was not privy to the details. What I can say, however, is that if they are, indeed, friends, then they would have found a way to bridge the miscommunication. Winer has a habit of coming across in a negative fashion. Not everyone has a stellar personality, and for others, it comes across even worse in this environment if we are not good communicators to begin with.
These 'A'-listers ar no different than the old school folks, except that now there's many more people participating in this digital-social-communication medium.
Perhaps we should heed our mother's advice ("if you cannot say anything nice...") by following the following social rule:
Blogger Rule #1: Only write what you would tell your audience (whether it be one or many) in a face-to-face encounter
And for Pete's sake, leave the adolescent bitchfest out of the blogosphere.
Scott Magoon
· 3 years ago
Karim, it looks to me that when Dave says "his post" in that context he is referring to Roger Cadenhead, not Scoble, as wanting "to get a flamewar going."
Scott Magoon
· 3 years ago
Robert, not to change the subject from all this fun, but have a nice weekend. Although it looks like rain is on the forecast for Seattle.
Karim
· 3 years ago
Scott -- you're right, it looks like Winer might be referring to Cadenhead as wanting to start a flamewar. I think it's a little ambiguous, as I thought the subject was *Scoble's* lament, but it makes more sense that Winer would think *Cadenhead* was trying to start a flamewar.
If, in fact, THAT makes any sense. The replies to Cadenhead's post look like about 500 people all going "YEAH!!! WINER'S AN ASS!!!" in *unison*. Which isn't pretty, but still, I thought for a flamewar there had to be some *disagreement.*
Just goes to show you how these things can get easily misunderstood...?
Thanks for pointing that out.
DavidM
· 3 years ago
It's the same for TV, press and blogs - if it sells people will write it.
As much as we may dislike it, the mob loves a hunt, and all of us find it irresistible sometimes.
The worst thing you can do is give it more attention and that's what you've just done.
Dave
· 3 years ago
Just to present one point - not in Dave's favor - in an argument that seems fated for a public smackdown.
Scoble: "No one added any value."
mcdmcblog (comment #15: "I do think you for allowing comments on the situation. I do not have the ability to comment at Dave’s site.".
Scripting.Com post today, obviously referring to things: "People who doubt that thoughtful discourse is possible in the blogosphere, need only look...."
My main beef with Scripting.Com is just that. "thoughtful discourse". "citizen journalism". "allowing comments".
Until Dave can act like a proper "citizen" journalist....meaning allowing conversation and also not posting vindictively and then pulling said posts... he'll fail to win my vote on credability. He'll always cause me to wonder why (a) he is being maligned and (b) what his agenda is about with the words he'll allow to stay public on Scripting.Com.
Robert, this is not said as "mob mentality" or "ad hominem" in Dave's direction in any way. Rather, it's a judgement long in making since 2000, and it's a judgement based on understanding how things work in this world.
Abhijit Nadgouda
· 3 years ago
You hit the nail in the head! We are skilled at using constructive tools for destruction.
Jack Yan
· 3 years ago
Robert, stick with your principles. I applaud you. I’m surprised that the blogosphere, still relatively new given that I am still asked what a blog is, has bred so much cat-fighting. Particularly as many bloggers are educated people. Maybe it’s the fatigue talking, but I remember the World Wide Web being more civilized at the same point in its history.
orangeguru
· 3 years ago
Buhuhu. Bad people are taking over the world. The revolution eats one of it's inventors. Maybe the first homo bloggies are simply burned out and have to move aside?
Of course there is a lot of crap out there and people attacking people. But that's fairly human - isn't it. Maybe the founding geek bloggers have finally to realize that NORMAL people and social behaviour has caught up with them?
This is developing into a trauma - very similar to old internet farts talking about the beginnings of usenet or compuserve ... the days before mainstream happened.
The 'golden age' of blabla a purely 'educated' geek flame wars. Yeah, sure! Dream on ...
JJ
· 3 years ago
People are people .. everywhere. Dave W. has left a long streak of angry, disappointed or bemused people behind him .. and if you read his posts over time and watch how he uses language .. he baits, he provokes, he says snide and catty things about other people often, using passive / aggressive syntax and sentence construction.
If there were only one or two *documented* instances of a**holishness, that would be one thing .. but there are more than one or two, and over a reasonably impressive time period ...
He must have been deeply hurt by having been ignored or not heard at an early stage in his life .. that's all I can imagine ...
orangeguru
· 3 years ago
@JJ: People are people .. everywhere. Dave W. has left a long streak of angry, disappointed or bemused people behind him ...
Maybe so. But was anyone ever forced to read his blog? And is anyone forced to read this new A-List Assault Teams? No. Most of this stuff is just opinions ... so we can choose to get excited or aggravated about them.
Jack Yan
· 3 years ago
Orangeguru (no. 74) has a point, but I felt I expressed it better. Just kidding. My real message: the sad thing is that it has taken a shorter amount of time for the nutters to begin blogging. I wonder if that means society is getting worse, or whether that’s merely a consequence of technology being available to more people. Maybe both. But if it’s the former, it would be awfully nice to think we could do something about it.
Liz Strauss
· 3 years ago
How to participate by not participating. . . .
v((aspers th' gr]*ate
· 3 years ago
hooray for blogocombat!
Blog Bloke
· 3 years ago
I'll be frank Robert. Most of us are sick and fed up with the Scobles and Winers labeling themselves as the cream of the blogosphere. A cut above the rest of us. The blue-bloods of blogdome that the rest of us mere mortals should grovel and "suck up" to.
What do you expect when you create a class system like that? Of course the 'peasants' are going to throw tomatoes and yell "off with his head". It's human nature.
Sorry for being the bearer of bad news my friend but here is my advice. Both yourself and Dave and the rest of the rabble should cut the bullshit "A-List" conflab and don't take yourself so seriously. Because believe it or not -- most of us don't.
Omni
· 3 years ago
Here's an objective outsider's take on this, for what it's worth:
It doesn't matter who likes who, who has how many friends or enemies, who did what to who in the past, or who did or said what outside of the public eye; the case has to be judged by what was done publicly in connection with this specific incident if we want to see who's in the wrong in this case.
Something I've found to be invariably true is this; a good, decent person never, ever, EVER shares private correspondence without the clear permission of all parties. NEVER. Someone who'd put a private letter in a totally public forum, aimed at an audience who any moron would know would react viciously towards the source of the letter, and such that said source will be sure to see said reaction, is FAR from being a saint; this is a calculatedly evil act, and, regardless of how much the letter-sharer was provoked, it's absolutely inexcusable and puts them 100% in the wrong for this particular altercation.
Perhaps Dave Winer is an objectively bad person; just be aware that Rogers Cadenhead has shown that he isn't any better.
Frank N. Stein
· 3 years ago
It's alive, it's alive, it's the blogosphere. You have built the perfect blog here Scoble. You have given me a reason to live and I can't stop blogging and reading your genius marketing ideas. I require more software to reach the next vista of geek uniformity and enslave the dumb serfs.
Helen, software developer
· 3 years ago
I think that what you've described is an ordinary life situation. In the blogosphere there are the same people as in real life and you can't change them.
All Comments
"I want better software. More software. More geek toys. More things that improve my life."
Your efforts to publicize what inventors are doing, open a door so that the world gets more exposed to their ideas...stick with it. Blogs are the modern Agora, unruly at times but ultimately smart people learn who to ignore and who is worth listening to. You're helping to give us all a better chance of ignoring the noise, and seeing and hearing the worthwhile speaker. Down with the mob, long live the inventors!
did you wish you had never looked at the blogs today or not?
But still, much like the rise in GOOD blogs was not because blogging is good, neither is this anger-fest because blogging is bad. Blogging is neutral. So wishing you hadn't read blogs today has nothing to do with blogs and everything to do with wishing you hadn't heard what real people have to say.
That is not meant as a critique of you though so don't please don't take it as such! There are times when everybody just wants to tune out what people of the world is saying because it isn't pretty.
And lord knows, Winer's never shied away from a fight, or being a sarcastic, snide ass any chance he got. So now he's getting the same thing back.
If you're going to be an opinionated, sarcastic bugger, then stop bitching when you get it back, because well, you ask for it.
I may get TIRED of the flames in the comments on some of my posts, (dear GOD, but Star Wars fans never let it go), but I never complain about "the evil mean people". I know what my style is going to create, and I accept that. If I ever wish for a different reaction, I'll write differently.
Always liked software, always want to know how it is made.
You are like Dave in that you are Posta Maxima. In the beginning you guys were the Link Masters, driving the blog-o-sphere. At present, the Borg Hive is so large, the number of voices has become too much to be handled by a single human mind, even if it aided by aggregator technology.
At times of crisis, it is good to unplug for a while, and spent some time in the real world. In the past, people just to call these periods 'vacations'. It is a bit of an art, this vacation thing, but try it, and keep trying it, and you will find that it recharges you in more ways than one. And who knows, you might even like the digital domain afterwards. :-)
Thanks for the human voice.
Being a bit sensationalistic is not an excuse to attack personally. If I disagree with their ideas, I'll say so, but I won't try to make them feel bad.
But, this is something I'll try to do a lot less of. Just focus on the people doing cool stuff.
Go read the mailing list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/
Find the posts made by Dave Winer. After you've read a few of those, maybe you'll see why he sets so many people off. Has Dave contributed? Sure, in many places. He's also impossible to work with, and he's irritated the heck out of a lot of very reasonable people. I'd count Tim Bray and Rogers Cadenhead as two of the most reasonable people I read, and I disagree with both of them - on different things - quite a bit. Dave has pushed both of them away, through some of the most venal, mean spirited attacks I've seen anywhere.
As I said on my blog - if Dave wants to know why he's disliked so much, he should buy a mirror.
Dave will get the respect he is due, when he stops acting like a child.
But don't give up on the medium. The ad hominem stuff won't go away but it also doesn't have a lot of lasting value. Do what Microsoft generally does -- focus more on customers and products than detractors.
Diversity and chaos are two sides of the same coin. People like me will spend our "attention dollars" on the blogs that actually add value.
Quit whining. It ain't so bad. You are doing good work. Nothing fatal went on today in the blogosphere. There is a disagreement and folks line up behind who they want to line up behind. Forget it. Just keep on keeping on. Have a nice glass of Chardonnay, hug your wife and enjoy life.
Your consideration for a maligned friend is admirable.
It must be difficult to see Dave attacked so vehemently.
I disagree with Dave's actions in this situation but I have made every attempt to persuade the b'verse to gently ask Dave to try to work it out with Rogers.
Rogers did create some code with and for Dave and there's ample evidence of the effort at opml.cadenhead.org. Dave paid $5,000 up front with a clear expectation that the details could settle overtime. Dave is documented on the site stating that Rogers did another miraculous programming job.
Consider the language of the letter Rogers recieved from Dave's lawyer on a friday that demanded return of all deposit money, and the code and any rights to all work performed.
I expect you to continue to stand by your friend but please try to understand the violent reaction that Dave generates when his "agreement" language states:
Consultant agrees that all copyrightable material, notes, records, drawings, designs, inventions, improvements, developments, discoveries and trade secrets (collectively, "Inventions") conceived, made or discovered by Consultant, solely or in collaboration with others, during the period of this Agreement which relate in any manner to the business of the Company that Consultant may be directed to undertake, investigate or experiment with or which Consultant may become associated with in work, investigation or experimentation in the line of business of Company in performing the Services hereunder, are the sole property of the Company. In addition, any Inventions which constitute copyrightable subject matter shall be considered "works made for hire" as that term is defined in the United States Copyright Act. Consultant further agrees to assign (or cause to be assigned) and does hereby assign fully to the Company all such Inventions and any copyrights, patents, mask work rights or other intellectual property rights relating thereto.
I wouldn't sign such a document after doing 90% of the work. I'd take my work down another path. But if I was confronted with a decision like the one Rogers faced when Mar 15th rolled around (beware the Ides of March) I'd quite likely use the full power of my blog to ask for a little help when the Overlords came to take away my property.
Dave's contention that Rogers work is a derivative product of his code is something that might be arbitrated but it's clear to me that he's not dealing in good faith with a contractor and it's likely that no arbitration will follow...
This is clearly a by-product of the RSS issues and Dave following through on his treats against Rogers for acting independently.
Reasonable people act reasonably.
People being victimized scream for help.
There seems to be a victim here and it's not Dave Winer. Dave's injuries are a consequence of his behaviors and tactics with a business partner.
I do think you for allowing comments on the situation. I do not have the ability to comment at Dave's site. I would encourgage him strongly to change his position on this matter. I only wish Dave had some friends that would counsel him to use his power more wisely.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/messag...
Read that post specifically, especially the end of it. In that light, doesn't Dave's action look pretty bad?
Paranoid much? WTF did you get into in Austin? Nevermind stopping reading blogs, I recommend detox.
you don't get to control the reaction to your writing. You stick your finger in the collective eye, and you expect that the reaction will be one you approve of.
That's somewhat...unrealistic. In your case, you just provoke for hit counts, maintaining your status, and attention. Dave's a jackass to far too many people to count, and like a long-provoked dog, it's biting him on the ass. I'm sorry he's in the middle of a shitstorm, but he's been creating it for years, decades even, and now it's come back to him.
If you want nothing but kindness, you must be nothing but kind. That definition has never applied to Dave, at least not on-line.
Previously:
Oh, and the “A” in the “New A List” stands for Attack or, maybe, “Ad Hominem.”
See previous comment. That's all I've got for this thread, if for no other reason than it's all I need. Flush.
I stay away from Dave (or, to quote his post today, I stay away from teh "virtual Dave").
The guy that walked through the restaurant in Palo Alto seemed like a nice enough guy to me. Maybe one day I'll get to meet the "real" Dave. If I do, I hope I can ignore the bad experiences I've had with the "virtual" Dave.
Either way, good on your for standing up for your friend. And good on you for not getting into the fight. Both great decisions mate :)
We need to set examples for how to deal with this so that the community standards shift from that of name calling and demeaning each other back to reasonable discourse focused on the issues. I don't know if it will ever happen fully, because, as I have said before, there are always going to be assholes out there somewhere shitting on other people.
As you said, I don't know about the facts of the matter here, but this is exactly the sort of issue which is a perfect case study on decorum in the blogosphere and the nature of public disputes. Because the blog/comment system enables it so easily, we are able to see the long tail of low value commentary much more easily - I dont necessarily think this is an attack mob, though I could see how it would FEEL like one. I just think that all the people who have felt wronged by Dave in some way are expressing their emotions and frustrations. Cadenhouse even admits to being an ardent supporter of Dave previously, most likely behaving in the same manner on Dave's behalf instead of against him, but I don't know those facts - just pointing out the possibility that this is subjective and shifting.
Of course, that just muddies the waters of the point I am trying to convey.
The bottom line is that people like yourself have the power to influence a lot of others to refocus the dialogue on the issues rather than resort to name calling. But its hard, so most people will take the easy way out. Instead of laying out an argument as to why somebody said or did something wrong, or behaved in a way that is pereceived to be inappropriate, they just call the other party names which is really just like putting some Crisco on that slippery slope...
I have been trying to make this point for the last several years, but am often dismissed by those who believe in the free form chaos of the Web - by those who say "F___ off - its our Web and we will say what we want". It is a tough line to manage, because to a degree they are right - free speech means people can and should be able to say what they want. But when the speech is of such a derogatory nature that it not only prevents the dialogue from moving forward but puts everyone 2 steps back, I don't think it plays well.
We should all learn to be more respectful of each other and to focus our energy on tearing down ideas, not people. Robert, I hope you are able to move this idea forward better than I have been able to...
There doesn't seem to be any basis for agreement. If, as seems the case, this has become a legal wrangle, then the worst possible place to try and rsolve it is in the court of public opinion. And in that sense, I'd say both sides have made grave errors of judgment. Grays by pushing it into the public domain in the first place and Winer for responding.
How on earth that mess gets sorted out is anyones guess. The real winners will likely be the lawyers. As usual in he said/he said arguments.
We have to cherish a world where the inventors are giving some elbow room to do what they do best. The thoughtful ones need not have their thoughts stolen by indecency. However, should the inventing mind move to harm others for personal gain, they stand to face the same punishment that all others would get and deserve to get, I don't know whether that's public humiliation though, and I don't think it has any place in today's blogs.
You taught me to stop blogging when I'm either depressed or pissed off. I think it's time for you to take a break. Just walk away for a while and let the Chihuahuas nip on someone else's buttocks for a few days.
You taught me to stop blogging when I'm either depressed or pissed off. I think it's time for you to take a break. Just walk away for a while and let the Chihuahuas nip on someone else's buttocks for a few days.
Shel: actually, I'm thinking hard about this. I probably will take a week off.
"Protect the inventor. Protect the guy who brought us SOAP, XML-RPC, RSS, OPML, podcasting, and a few other things here and there....One thing on this case: one guy called in the mob, the other guy didn’t."
Various words immediately jump to mind. Integrity. Private. Public. Creator. Coder. Agendas.
Surely you aren't implying that Rogers isn't due something here. Also, while he may be guilty for taking things public a bit more than many would, it isn't exactly like he "called in the mob".
He was faced with a deadline stated in a very nasty letter sent from Winer's lawyer, a letter that resulted from Rogers' lawyer advising him to not sign an agreement... and decided to make it public.
The reaction of other bloggers antagonized things to a point of becoming a mob. But no way can you call Rogers' post "calling in the mob".
As for that word integrity... and agendas. Every person has an agenda. You. Me. Everyone. But it's HOW you work at furthering your agenda that brings up the word integrity. In a direct comparison of these two parties over the last few years, Winer suffers. He posts very inflammatory things then retracts them like they never existed. He doesn't allow two-way conversations (your term) by allowing comments on Scripting.Com. He changes definitions of agreements on control of RSS with Harvard.
These can't help but make one wonder what his real agenda is regarding his recent posts of "retiring", this "virtual Dave", and his dealings with Rogers.
Second quote:
"No one kept their head — the knives and guns just came out in this street fight. No one called both sides and did some real reporting. No one added any value. "
[Insert wry laugh here.]
Sorry about that. Couldn't help it - my warped sense of humor combined with my outlook on life and business and overhype.
Wasn't it just about a year ago that the big meme was "citizen journalism"?
Enough said on that point.
Look Robert, I applaud you for sticck up for a friend in need. I understand you current anguish on things. And you are right - stay out of it. This isn't your fight. Nor mine. Nor, well, anyone except Dave and Rogers.
Meaning you are also right - others are delighting in meddling in this way more than anyone should feel comfortable about.
With regard to private disputes, they get resolved privately, sometimes with the help of lawyers and judges, but I don't any reason to want to vote. And I feel like I'm being put in the middle when someone expects me to take sides on something for which I can never know all of the relevant facts.
I've thought about this, and I think what I will do is stay out of private disputes and also not give any public voice to them if I can help it.
See it for what it is and avoid the pissing matches. Engage with the people who disagree with you intelligently and ignore the name callers. I think you've inspired a lot of people (the silent majority).
RSS is already out there. It works. Extensions work. Since this BS surfaced I suddenly understand and sympathise with Atom, which I never got. The clue: all these people know and worked with Dave. And THAT's why they split.
From a blog I only discovered recently: New WMAP results: quantum fluctuations, galaxies, and the first stars
Fascinating!
How did I discover it? Robert posted a link to a blog that link to this blog.
Again, could be OT, but everything that IS good about living in these times!
If you didn't care about the A-List, and being on it, you would talk FAR more often about stuff that isn't blogging. Your own orbit around the subject casts severe doubt on your claims of "not caring about the A-List".
Wheee, yes sirrreeee. I'm having fun now!
Not. Which is why I'm gonna take some time off and hang with my wife. Have fun!
Your points are well taken. But
just because someone (Dave W.) is
your friend doesn't mean they are
incapable of doing something REALLY
dumb.
In this case, Dave W. has gone
to the mat against Roger C., a guy
who has been a strong and vocal supporter of Dave W when others
were less generous.
Being extremely smart and creative
(as Dave W absolutely is) doesn't
give them license to be vindictive.
I don't know Dave except through his writings. I see two Daves, as someone pointed out. One is your friend,
and he's a GREAT, witty and funny guy.
It's the "other" Dave people are jumping on.
I have to agree with you that people are being viscous in the attack against Dave. But let's face it - Dave is a genious, AND he is an asshole. I respect Dave, I don't bash him, and I DO NOT like him. But I read him every day. Because I respect him.
Wnhy is he an asshole? Because he bought into who "Dave" is. He bought the hype, he turned the corner, and now it's not primatrily what Dave can do for us, but what can Dave do that makes him look good to us.
Harsh.
Yep.
But then so is this recent email exchange (taken from memory, but I know Dave can pull up the origionls out of his RSS/OPML history from hell.
I have to agree with you that people are being viscious in the attack against Dave. But let's face it - Dave is a genious, AND he is a complete asshole. OK - he bought your kids a computer - maybe if he bought mine one, I would be more obliging to him. I respect Dave, I don't bash him, but I DO NOT like him. But I read him every day. Because I respect him.
Wnhy is he an asshole? Because he bought into who "Dave" is. He bought the hype, he turned the corner, and now it's not primatrily about what Dave can do for "us", but what can Dave do that makes him look good to "us". "He" is "them". And we are all afraid of "them". Dave *IS* and ass (and I bet he even realizes it on occasion).
Harsh.
Yep.
But then so is this recent email exchange (taken from memory, but I know Dave can pull up the origionls out of his RSS/OPML history from hell).
I told Dave I like reading his TECHNICAL blog entries, but not his personal or political ones. I asked him if he would consider making a second blog for non tech stuff. His response? Basically it was: "Fuck no, never". Not "thanks for reading", not "I understand we have a difference of opinion", NOT any sign that I was a SIGNIFICANT person to him - I'm not. And that's why Dave needs to shut the hell up - he no longer (if he ever did) talks for the user, the guy on the line, the gal at the help desk. Dave talks to and for Dave. Dave is a narcissist. Really. Argue if you will - I've known lots of them
Now that is fine - it's his blog, and he is free to do what he wants with it - but when he treats people like they are less than people, then he becomes less than a person to me. And when that happens he loses respect, and those that still respect him also lose respect. You are the people you associate with.
Bottom line. Dave DOES need to quit blogging. He is either too bitter, or too stuck on himself to add any real value anymore beyong writing new specifications (please keep doing that). But please - DO NOT think you are my voice, or that I care what you think anymore - you've burned that bridge Dave, and not just with me. Perhaps, finally, you've burned too many bridges.
And this isn't even about the law suit challenge - it's about who Dave was ten years ago, and what Dave THINKS he is today. Ten years ago, he was a better Dave.
Anyway, that's my rant.
I thought that was all aparta the 'naked conversations'. I think someone wrote a book on that.
lots of people in your comments telling you what a jerk you are.
Can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen. So all blogs are good for be marketing spam and "hate" commenters? Even I won't go that far. Burnout gone to your head, it happens. Stop taking it all so seriously, you point-blank asked for the marketing, and comments are half community-theater performances.
Thick skin, thick skin. It got you conference travel miles serious, various other random junkets, freebies, money, power, a coolish (tho inept) shaky-cam Microsoft jobbie, that's all gravy. O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! The petty blog wars, be not your fight.
All mimsy were the blogrogoves, and the mome commentraths outgrabe.
Feel better.
And yet you take money from and defend your convicted monopolist felon employer.
I also know that whatever the real story is, it isn't all out on the blogs.
I don't understand why anyone would publish a lawyer's letter on their site and I don't understand why people think that airing dirty laundry in public is a good thing. It's a little like watching your friends go through a sloppy, ugly divorce. You hate to see it happen but dont' seem to get away from it.
Sites like Tailrank and Memeorandum just drag it out longer.
I read the comments on cadenhead.org and had the same reaction as you. There were far too many ad hominem attacks, similar to the one on you and Microsoft just above mine. It does nothing to further the conversation and the conversation itself is one that would best be held in private without the rest of us participating.
I hope that happens, because what I want to read about is all the cool things coming for geeks like me, not personal and/or business disputes between the "players".
I hope you feel better soon.
That's right, Robert. Why should they? There's no money in it.
The difference between "professional journalism" and "citizen journalism" comes down to money, because money makes it possible for someone to concentrate time and resources on a story. A professional journalist covering this would ring Dave, ring Rogers, do some digging, get to the bottom of it. Someone who doesn't have the time because they're not being paid to do it won't do it.
"One thing on this case: one guy called in the mob, the other guy didn’t. That says volumes to me."
That's actually a bit rich. There have been plenty of occasions in the past when Dave has "called in the mob" as you put it. And posting a threatening legal letter - which is what Rogers did - is pretty much standard practice on the internet these days.
At the end of the day, Robert, THIS is the wisdom of crowds that many folks, including you, have been talking about. Crowds become lynchmobs and witch hunts at the drop of a hat, and the internet amplifies that. Anyone who'd ever done researching into the psychology of crowd behaviour could have explained this - but instead, a band of techno-utopians somehow thought that crowds on the internet would act differently to other crowds.
The only time that crowds become wise is when they're mediated through money: Markets, not crowds, are never wrong.
My thoughts in visual form:
http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/030806/inter...
Otherwise, you're just a division evangelist doing happy little internal videos for internal marketing.
Like it or hate it, this blog is what makes your value.
"He can't apply the same standards to himself that he applies to others," says humorist and programmer Greg Knauss, who last year created the WinerLog parody site (since taken over by a much angrier and less funny group of contributors who write under the collective name Zaphod). "He'll launch into people really hard, doing over-the-top, needless stuff, like posting sexual slurs about Rogers Cadenhead when they disagreed, but then he says there is to be no flaming on his own site." Cadenhead, the author of best-selling books on Java programming and other software topics, disagreed with Winer over the propriety of the Third Voice site-editing technology; Winer responded by pointing to a childhood picture of Cadenhead on the author's site and writing, "See the little boy? Want to have sex with him?"
Did Dave ever apologize publicly for this? I think not.
People will always get into pissing matches. What's the best thing to do? Stay on the sidelines. Don't get involved. If you keep showing off the cool stuff and are honest about it, it works itself out.
Really appeciate the tech that you have shown off. Most of my friends are amazed at what I pass along to them from this blog.
Given the sheer number of people who Mr. Winer has wounded and enraged, I can't help wondering if all of them can really be in the wrong or if the blame more likely rests on the one person whom they have in common.
WTF?!?! What the hell did he hope to achieve by doing that? Robert, if you are truly his friend, and I suspect you are - take him to get therapy.
It's like this...Dave can say whatever Dave wants because Dave is always right.
If you're not Dave, then shut up, and live with that inferior state, quietly, so you don't disturb Dave and the greatness that is Dave.
He may be MUCH different in person, but on line? That's Dave. ANd if he IS much different in person, that's actually worse, because then it's just Internet Balls
And he would have gone to the gas chamber anyway.
(And ironically, the gas chamber would have been lit with electric light bulbs.)
I understand you want to stick up for your friend, too. That's natural.
But look at the pingback Dave Winer gave you on this post (comment 40). "Scoble laments all the flamers in the thread on Rogers Cadenhead’s site, but isn’t it obvious that the purpose of his post was to get a flamewar going?"
Dude.
You're apparently one of his few allies and supporters, and when you write a post *supporting* him, calling him a great inventor and personal friend, he accuses you of WANTING TO START A FLAMEWAR. He accuses you of *betraying* him.
Maybe that should tell you something?
"No one called both sides and did some real reporting?" You're friends with Winer, and can probably get a hold of Cadenhead. Talk to both of them for 10 minutes and do some real reporting on your blog. Stop cursing the darkness and light a candle.
Sure, it brings our world closer together. I get to connect with like-minded people who I wouldn't be able to meet otherwise. However, how often are the people you "met" online identically the same as when you finally get to meet them in person.
We have a long way to go because although electronic tools for communciation becomes more sophisticated, it still complicates the simplicity of face-to-face communication.
Sure, in Geekdom, I'm sure some of us communicate more effectively via a keyboard and computer monitor rather than meeting face-to-face, but that's a poor excuse.
In the case with Winer and Cadenhead, I really cannot comment because I was not privy to the details. What I can say, however, is that if they are, indeed, friends, then they would have found a way to bridge the miscommunication. Winer has a habit of coming across in a negative fashion. Not everyone has a stellar personality, and for others, it comes across even worse in this environment if we are not good communicators to begin with.
These 'A'-listers ar no different than the old school folks, except that now there's many more people participating in this digital-social-communication medium.
Perhaps we should heed our mother's advice ("if you cannot say anything nice...") by following the following social rule:
Blogger Rule #1: Only write what you would tell your audience (whether it be one or many) in a face-to-face encounter
And for Pete's sake, leave the adolescent bitchfest out of the blogosphere.
If, in fact, THAT makes any sense. The replies to Cadenhead's post look like about 500 people all going "YEAH!!! WINER'S AN ASS!!!" in *unison*. Which isn't pretty, but still, I thought for a flamewar there had to be some *disagreement.*
Just goes to show you how these things can get easily misunderstood...?
Thanks for pointing that out.
As much as we may dislike it, the mob loves a hunt, and all of us find it irresistible sometimes.
The worst thing you can do is give it more attention and that's what you've just done.
Scoble: "No one added any value."
mcdmcblog (comment #15: "I do think you for allowing comments on the situation. I do not have the ability to comment at Dave’s site.".
Scripting.Com post today, obviously referring to things: "People who doubt that thoughtful discourse is possible in the blogosphere, need only look...."
My main beef with Scripting.Com is just that. "thoughtful discourse". "citizen journalism". "allowing comments".
Until Dave can act like a proper "citizen" journalist....meaning allowing conversation and also not posting vindictively and then pulling said posts... he'll fail to win my vote on credability. He'll always cause me to wonder why (a) he is being maligned and (b) what his agenda is about with the words he'll allow to stay public on Scripting.Com.
Robert, this is not said as "mob mentality" or "ad hominem" in Dave's direction in any way. Rather, it's a judgement long in making since 2000, and it's a judgement based on understanding how things work in this world.
Of course there is a lot of crap out there and people attacking people. But that's fairly human - isn't it. Maybe the founding geek bloggers have finally to realize that NORMAL people and social behaviour has caught up with them?
This is developing into a trauma - very similar to old internet farts talking about the beginnings of usenet or compuserve ... the days before mainstream happened.
The 'golden age' of blabla a purely 'educated' geek flame wars. Yeah, sure! Dream on ...
If there were only one or two *documented* instances of a**holishness, that would be one thing .. but there are more than one or two, and over a reasonably impressive time period ...
He must have been deeply hurt by having been ignored or not heard at an early stage in his life .. that's all I can imagine ...
Maybe so. But was anyone ever forced to read his blog? And is anyone forced to read this new A-List Assault Teams? No. Most of this stuff is just opinions ... so we can choose to get excited or aggravated about them.
What do you expect when you create a class system like that? Of course the 'peasants' are going to throw tomatoes and yell "off with his head". It's human nature.
Sorry for being the bearer of bad news my friend but here is my advice. Both yourself and Dave and the rest of the rabble should cut the bullshit "A-List" conflab and don't take yourself so seriously. Because believe it or not -- most of us don't.
It doesn't matter who likes who, who has how many friends or enemies, who did what to who in the past, or who did or said what outside of the public eye; the case has to be judged by what was done publicly in connection with this specific incident if we want to see who's in the wrong in this case.
Something I've found to be invariably true is this; a good, decent person never, ever, EVER shares private correspondence without the clear permission of all parties. NEVER. Someone who'd put a private letter in a totally public forum, aimed at an audience who any moron would know would react viciously towards the source of the letter, and such that said source will be sure to see said reaction, is FAR from being a saint; this is a calculatedly evil act, and, regardless of how much the letter-sharer was provoked, it's absolutely inexcusable and puts them 100% in the wrong for this particular altercation.
Perhaps Dave Winer is an objectively bad person; just be aware that Rogers Cadenhead has shown that he isn't any better.
You have built the perfect blog here Scoble.
You have given me a reason to live and I can't stop blogging and reading your genius marketing ideas. I require more software to reach the next vista of geek uniformity and enslave the dumb serfs.