DISQUS

Vinodh Nandakumar · 1 year ago

I am really hoping that these changes will help end users to get a better operating system!

Robert Scoble · 1 year ago

From what I'm hearing, they will.

TheTechNewsBlog · 1 year ago

Robert,
I have to say, I cannot believe that Microsoft were not working based on a flatter management structure. For a company with the resources MS have, it's always seemed amazing to me that they often neglect to use some REALLY basic business processes.

I use PC's, Mac's and a Linux box (because I write about this stuff.) In view of the tiny share of the overall computer market that Apple has, I'm confused as to why what Apple are doing would have (literally) any impact at all on what Microsoft do with Windows 7 (or anything else.)

I would like to be educated on this if someone can tell me.

Great post Robert.


Jim
TheTechNewsBlog.Com

Dileepa Prabhakar · 1 year ago

I'd actually like Microsoft to keep quiet about Windows 7 for a bit longer. Even with all your assurances that things shown at the PDC will actually ship, it's a lot more fun to surprise people with something great.

Pete · 1 year ago

Robert,

This was a great idea / article. You put all your cards on on the table and were even selfless in the process. Awesome!! This should be spread around the journalism world. I hope you get inside and are able to cover Windows 7.

Pete
http://WinningMan.com

Robert · 1 year ago

After Vista anything will be a better OS... the real question is whether it will be a good operating system. Time will tell. I'm a big Linux fan but still press home the compatibility of Microsoft Products... not because they work well with other systems but rather that everyone has Windows (in one format or another). Lets hope this is a step in the right direction. I'm keenly watching this one!

Ariel Torres · 1 year ago

Wow - I'm sure this is only a small amount of the changes being made with the Windows 7 team, but it still makes me incredibly excited about the potential the OS has. It seems like Microsoft is learning from past mistakes and hopefully this will translate to better products. As much as I love my Mac and OS X, I would love to see equally great operating system from Microsoft.

Anyone have a link to the emails mentioned that were sent by execs about discussions regarding Apple?

John Walker · 1 year ago

I'm glad this time around MS is keeping a bit closed on the feature set. It's a good management of expectations. That said, I'm surprised no one has asked you how you feel about this in terms of your push, while at MS, for transparency. Interested in what you think about that aspect.

Robert Scoble · 1 year ago

John: incomplete transparency is often more harmful than no transparency. With Longhorn we weren't completely transparent. The whole thing started falling apart and we weren't able to tell that story and reset expectations.

Personally, for the Windows team I think being closed up is a much better way to go. Expectations don't go out of whack and you can make a "big release" to a waiting set of press and bloggers. Apple has that down to a science.

The problem with Microsoft's model is that they rely on outsiders (er, OEMs) so they'll never be able to be as quiet as Apple is. You need to share quite a bit with OEMs to get them to write drivers and make hardware, etc. It's often the OEMs that leak stuff as well.

skc · 1 year ago

Tech journalists just want in so they can be the first to tear down whatever it is MS is doing. Tech journalists are pretty much clueless about technology in general and are heavily biased towards Cupertino. I would hope Sinofsky and co stick to simply blogging about their work so we can make up our own minds.

Hemant M · 1 year ago

Hi Robert,

Being a media student and a keen observer of emerging media processes and its dynamics with corporations, your is an interesting social experiment, which demands a lot of collaborative insights and broad minded approach towards fact finding in open media space.

Look forward t how it develops!

Hemant M,
India

Robert Scoble · 1 year ago

skc: I have more than 1,000 interviews so you can see what kind of stuff I do. There are a lot of journalists out there who aren't clueless about tech. You might look into it and/or upgrade your reading lists. I'm writing this from a Windows Vista computer, by the way, which I was also using at the Gnomedex conference so you can ask around.

Borlock · 1 year ago

Full disclosure - I'm an ex-Windows dev who now work in another group in MSFT.

I totally disagree with this statement: "the reason that things haven’t leaked ... is that team members feel much better about the management". I know maybe 100 or so people in various groups on Win7. I can tell you that I've not met a single person since Sinofsky took over who has told me that they feel "good amount management".

Instead I've heard from several people: "Sinofsky comes from Office. He really doesn't get Windows or the culture behind it. He's been put in this position in order to preserve the product rather than improve it. The reason nobody talks about Win7, is cause there is nothing to say.". And then they leave the org (which frankly, makes internal recruiting a lot easier for me.)

On the flat org thing: What happened in the past is that Windows was built from small, dynamic orgs that come together under a PUM in groups of 20 to 50 people. And you really didn't care what happened above you (yes there were many levels, but doesn't matter - you had your own team and goal). Now the individual, independent teams are effectively removed and instead there are massive silos of dev orgs / test orgs and PM orgs reporting up to a VP.

The effect of this is the following: In the Windows XP days, I was in my testers' offices maybe for half the day - the testers was an intricate part of the team and we always understood what each other were doing.

In Vista, the PUMs were removed and the testers were now on a different team. So I saw them maybe once a day for a few minutes and the rest of the time they were doing their own thing. (Guess what happened when developers and testers don't talk? Quality suffered, and it showed.)

In Win7, with even more management removed (and thus less individualized teams), meeting with testers became a weekly thing. I didn't even know some of my testers, and I certainly have no clue what they were doing. (They certainly weren't finding bugs - all of our bugs came from partners or customers).

The only reason that Win7 will have any hope of success is because by the time it releases, the market (especially driver writers) will have caught up to Vista, and Win7 is going to be no change from Vista.

Robert Scoble · 1 year ago

Borlock: well, this might be a good other reason not to let me have time to really see what's going on behind the scenes too. Thanks for letting me know.

Personally I wonder what could be done to improve the product anyway. I'm finding I'm using the OS less and less and the browser more and more. The things I wish Vista did was startup from sleep faster. Seriously, that's my one real wish. Yeah, sometimes it's a bit hard to figure out where you are in the file tree. Sometimes it's hard to find the control panel you need. But those are little nits and only bug me once in a while. Start up off of sleep bugs me every day several times a day.

N. Venkatraman · 1 year ago

I think this will be a great story for use in business schools as well. Gone are the days of discussing cases written from one or two pre-defined angles much after the decisions are taken or products launched. What we need is a more compelling, in-depth look at the challenges faced by the team as they develop Windows7 to regain some of the lost luster after Vista. Using multiple media (audio, video, text and graphics), the story can come alive more powerfully than otherwise. By tracking it over time (but perhaps not releasing sensitive information), you may be able to let the readers (and students) keep abreast of the developments. We need more compelling, in-depth understanding of how companies launch critical new products and Windows7 is clearly one that is pivotal for Microsoft. Good Luck. Cheers.. Look forward to tracking how this story unfolds not only in Fast Company but in the blogs. Cheers.

jimconnolly · 1 year ago

@scobleizer
Your comment regarding "using the OS less and less" is totally correct.

The OS is becoming less and less relevant as the browser becomes more important.

Interestingly, I now know a number of people who have also ditched MS Office; not for Open Office etc - But for tools like Google Docs etc.

Great post and some excellent comments.


@TheTecNewsBlog

Brandon Paddock · 1 year ago

Borlock -

I'm a dev on the Windows Find & Organize team. I came from outside of Windows around the time Sinofsky took over. Previously I'd been in a very small, very agile group that rode the border between Windows Live and Windows.

It took some time to get used to things in Windows, and to a differently structured org. I still think there are some advantages to the PUM model or at least to organizing offices based on feature teams, some of which you touched on.

At the beginning of the Win7 project (my first Windows project) I was uncertain about a lot of things. A lot of people who got re-orged into windows didn't like it and complained a lot then eventually left. A lot of people who had been in Windows left because they felt like the "culture" of Windows was going away.

And you know what I say? Good riddance. Frankly, I think the culture and leadership responsible for Vista was in need of a kick in the pants. After the re-org it took some time for me to find my place and get comfortable in Windows and with basically an entirely new team of people. But in the last year or so I've become a very big fan of Sinofsky and the WEX leadership, and the management of my own team.

One reason I say I'm a big fan is because of how excited I've become, not just about my own work, but about the entire product. I don't think the project would be anywhere near what it is today if we were stuck with the culture or leadership of the last release.

// Just my opinion
// But if Scoble's post is to believed it sounds like there are others
// And no, I'm not one of his "sources" :)

Loren Heiny · 1 year ago

Great idea for an article or series of FastCompany articles. Personally, focusing on the secrecy aspects of the Win7 marketing plan is most interesting to me. A "How Microsoft Kept Feature XYZ Secret" would be a must read for me. I think an article like this would need to be researched extemporaneously like you propose. It wouldn't be the same to just interview people about what they thought happened in the past. You want to be there in real time to hear about stories of people concerned that something's been leaked or the feature isn't going to make it or to cover the excitement about the pending release.

boe · 1 year ago

Why does everyone always care about new features - just something to write about.

I work for a few thousand end users. They don't ask for new features - they want it to:

Boot faster
shut down faster
open apps faster
copy files faster

Most of my clients who use both mac and PC aren't dazzled by mac's gui - they are impressed with how much faster it boots and opens apps.

They don't need to buy new processors, more memory or "boost" drives - it just does what it is supposed to - work in the background so you can run apps quickly and browse quickly. Is this some secret someone is keeping from MS?

My clients never said - gee I wish I had transparent borders - that would make me much more productive. The companies I support never said - if only things were more rounded and easier to use for people that never used computers before and more frustrating for people who alread know how to do things on computers - we would like to spend money on an OS that does that.

Instantdownloads4u.com · 1 year ago

The real question is whether it will be a worth waiting OS. Since after Vista anything will be a better one…
Lets hope this is a step in the right direction.Anyone knows when it is out ?

Thanks

John K. · 1 year ago

Have you seen the book "Car: A Drama of the American Workplace" by Mary Walton? (http://www.amazon.com/Car-American-Workplace-Ma...) Ford allowed her to embed with the Taurus development team to document the process of creating the 1996 Taurus. She wrote about the good and bad, but she was ultimately shunned by Ford, because she wrote about too much bad stuff. The potential downside of letting a reporter see the guts of a development team is too great to offset the potential upside.

Dave · 1 year ago

Rather doubt MS would willing to do this again. They've already done an "inside the dev team book--Showstopper. Sure, things have progressed a lot since then, but the basics still hold true. Add to that there is "Dreaming in Code". Although not MS, it's the same genre. So, this story type of story has become a bit hackneyed. Having a blogger do it would make it even less interesting.

As for being some type of business school case study? MS management has never been known as being innovative. And based on your description, there's nothing all that interesting here. Big companies do management re-orgs all the time. Yawn.

Robert Scoble · 1 year ago

Instant: sounds like a lot of what Windows 7 will become is coming out at the PDC in October. So, figure 12 to 18 months after that, or, 2010 sometime.

Borlock · 1 year ago

Brandon,

One correction - I'm mostly talking about Windows from a COSD (Core Operating System Division) perspective rather than WEX.

It is here where I think Sinofsky is most out of his element and we're it hurts most losing culture. Office doesn't have the large core that Windows has and you can build the products almost completely independent from each other. Windows has a huge kernel that takes time to change and every change has a ripple effect through the rest of the O/S.

One big complaint I have is that with Sinofsky's new milestone approach it makes it all but impossible to innovate anything in the kernel. You can to a point slap pretty new UI on the existing stuff, but if you want to make a real difference in the Core O/S (like significantly overhauling the way SCM works so we can improve boot time), you can't. Ever.

You don't have time to get your fundamentals right and build on it in the same release, and you are also not officially allowed to target the next O/S release or even an out-of-band release. So how can you ever change anything??

In reality some long-term investments is still being done, but in secret from upper management, with funding hidden in another shipping project. People get away with this, but the fact that we are effectively forced to do in order to have any long term vision doesn't fill me with confidence in management.

Oh also, the reason that we shipped virtually no Ultimate Extra's is because of Sinofsky's strong aversion to out-of-band releases. Boy, do the market love us for that one!

Ben · 1 year ago

Borlock,

COSD is run by Jon DeVaan. Obviously Steven and Jon have to be in sync because together they own all of the bits in a client Windows install, but at the end of the day you are blaming a VP for what happens outside of his domain.

I also challenge the notion that long term investments are not done. I work on something of this nature myself, and I work within WEX. I will not clarify this any further because PDC is the right time for announcing stuff.

Also, count me in as another person who is happy with what Sinofsky has done for WEX.

Dick Carlson · 1 year ago

Robert --

If nothing else, it would be a story that Microsoft itself should capture. So much of the history of the company seems to be nothing more than the memory of the victors. The same mistakes are made again and again, and it would be great if someone could at least document what works and what doesn't. I spent hours and hours leading post-mortem meetings that published huge reports that nobody ever looked at again.

A major part of learning is storytelling, and that's what you do well. I hope they'll let you into the tent.

Borlock · 1 year ago

Ben,

I knew somebody would bring this up.

If DeVaan had any backbone I would agree with you, but as it is he is just channeling Sinofsky.

The new milestone process and flat org initiatives are all coming from Sinofsky.

Yert · 1 year ago

I honestly hate it when people complain about a process they have not seen tested yet. Maybe Milestones will work, maybe they won't. We'll see, then we can make a judgment.

Still, like back in the days of yore (2003) we are seeing excitement for a Windows release. I wonder what will come of it.

Mike Torres · 1 year ago

One thing you can look to with respect to a proof point for the changes in the organization: the new IE8 beta 2 which also reports through Steven. I've been running it for 2 days and it absolutely screams. Agree that it needs more for the "passionates" but all things considered (given the recent history post-IE6) the progress is very impressive.

Submit your SEO Articles · 1 year ago

What is the chance of including SEO concept in the new IE8 as a way of measuring whether the visited site is SEO optimised according to certain predefined user-settings ?

I hope I am not dreaming or so.

Thanks anyway.

Khalid

Den · 1 year ago

CUSTOMER SURVEYS: Why does Microsoft not
do meaningfull surveys of what the users
of their products want ? Not doing so and responding
to customer/user "needs" represents some sort
of arrogant or arbitrary group thought there.
Surveys and product previews could have easily avoided
the disaster of Vista.
Why not disclose what is on the drawing board
and allow users to comment rather than "pushing"
the product after it is out ?
The lack of effectiveness in this area may be
a case study in rant policy decisions,
so review and rescind the arbitrary rant policies.

Mike · 1 year ago

First you give praise for how much better their teams are working when they are silent to the press, then you ask them to change all that because you want to do a story on it. Probably not a very good pitch!

Maurice · 1 year ago

sounds liek some one senior at ms read "Rapid Software development"

Club Penguin Cheats · 2 months ago

I'm a big Linux fan but still press home the compatibility of Microsoft Products... not because they work well with other systems but rather that everyone has Windows (in one format or another). Lets hope this is a step in the right direction. I'm keenly watching this one!