Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

jason — Fri, 23 May 2008 09:40:16 -0000

Maybe they should learn Java?

Just a thought

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Andrew — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:48:15 -0000

You cannot have a democratic society without a democratic workplace. Everyone, including those often-ignored janitors, should have a say in their workplace.

And as for this "FDR was a Commie" business, let's not forget that he got America out of the Great Depression, which was largely caused by Libertarian business practices.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Econ — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:16:56 -0000

Why are you people even arguing about this? Capitalism is the Natural Law by which we live in the US economy. Nothing should change that. Nothing should cost-motivate the system to change in any way. Take, for example, a reverse scenerio: if the janitor made more than the programmer, how would people be motivated to create as much innovation in the world? How would people be motivated to better their lives? People get by when they are forced to--furthermore, they are motivated to improve their lives. Sure some statistical outliers experience a downward spiral, and become homeless, and this is a real problem, too, but the wage disparity is essential to the US Economy.

Furthermore, in matters of supply and demand, more people azre capable of doing unskilled labor, so wage competition ensues & business leaders profit from people out-bidding each other. I think that since Google and Wikipedia generally reduce the overall asymetrical information situation, many so-called skilled laborers will find that competition is much more keen in the future, as information is more easily available to everyone else. But then employers will hae to rely on other factors in screening and wage determination. Credit score & credible experience will become tantamount in the years to come--not formal education. I think we have seen this phenomena, already.

In closing, I want everyone to rest assured. As long as you are doing what you enjoy, or at least learning the skills for what you wish to do & preparing yourself for a growing move into what you enjoy, you will be fine. Low income is a great tool to motivate people to improve their lives & there are plenty of relatively unskilled jobs out there which pay more than poverty level--just see your temp agency. In the long run, everything balances out or oscillates the other way. One day, people are going to say, "To heck with this janitor job," and they leave their current job for something nicer / profitable / whatever. This will leave a larger than usual hole in the janitor job market, and janitors will be more empowered to set their own wages. Diminishing oscillations in economies are a wonderful long-term phenomenon which ensure a balanced, and efficient job market.

Thanks.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Billy Bragg — Mon, 19 May 2008 13:07:53 -0000

There is power in a factory, power in the land
Power in the hands of a worker
But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood
The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for
From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud
War has always been the bosses' way, sir

The Union forever defending our rights
Down with the blackleg, all workers unite
With our brothers and out sisters from many far off lands
There is power in a Union

Now I long for the morning that they realise
Brutality and unjust laws can not defeat us
But who'll defend the workers who cannot organise
When the bosses send their lackies out to cheat us?

Money speaks for money, the Devil for his own
Who comes to speak for the skin and the bone
What a comfort to the widow, a light to the child
There is power in a Union

The Union forever defending our rights
Down with the blackleg, all workers unite
With our brothers and out sisters from many far off lands
There is power in a Union.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Stiv Bator — Mon, 19 May 2008 02:01:47 -0000

"Well, given that FDR approved about every socialist program this country now has, I’d say his understanding of capitalism was a bit flawed"

Man, good times, what?

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Rajiv — Sun, 18 May 2008 23:07:56 -0000

Just because janitora are in a job where they can market , i.e. BS their way out to the top, using utopian ideas and romantic faith, means that they will continue to be discriminated against. Sometimes, I feel for all it's goodness, in terms of wealth creation and richness, the US is actually a harder place to survive - the standard deviation is so huge

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Steve — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:38:39 -0000

Well, given that FDR approved about every socialist program this country now has, I'd say his understanding of capitalism was a bit flawed

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Nicole — Sun, 18 May 2008 18:35:50 -0000

Unions i think cause more damage than good. they make it difficult if not impossible to fire poor workers. I worked as a manager where i had unionized workers. I do believe every one of them should be paid a good living wage and have access to health care. However workers get paid by seniority not by work effort and quality, meaning we had problems with people doing just enough to scoot by and not be fired. I don't get 100% coverage on my health, and yet our janitors striking demanded 100% coverage, and a raise. I irked me the sense of entitlement. We even fired one woman for physically attacking and harassing a co-worker, but the union made us re-hire the worker because it was a first offense and there had to be at least three with proper paperwork filed to fire someone. See what I mean? All people, regardless of job should be paid well enough to live if they work full time at minimum. Unions taking a cut of pay and other things doesn't help people. Workers could certainly strike and negotiate as a group without an official union 'leader' leading it.

Sorry to ramble but unions aggravate me, i think poor workers should be able to be fired so that we can hire a good worker instead. Admittedly if we aren't paying enough we won't get a good worker, and then we'll have to raise what we are willing to pay for what we want.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

peppone — Sun, 18 May 2008 18:24:23 -0000

Stiv

thank you :-) btw Professions do have unions Medical Doctors and Lawyers have pre entry closed shops :-).

And just because techies are clever doesn’t been they cant get taken for a ride. How would an individual deal with a long running legal case about say pensions (look up the BT Section A Case) or represent themselves in a labour court.

Profesional unions (Ie M&P) deal with some of the same issues but there are more subtle issues that come into play at the higher end I’ve had bullying cases when i was woried about one person and when I heard that someone had jumped in front of a train at the local station I was relived that it wasn’t one of my boys and girls who hadn’t come to anyone with their problems – felt a bit bad about that afterwards.

Ill leave with the reminder that FDR said Capitalism only works when everyone benefits.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Steve — Sun, 18 May 2008 15:47:23 -0000

No one has a "right" to a specific wage or salary. It's a free market. You, as an employee, are simply a resource the business puts a price on for the output it gets. If you are a scarce resouce you are worth more. (there are exceptions, like Scoble, Arrington, et.al.). Yeah, it sucks that is the going wage for janitors. But obviously that is what the market has set the price at. To artificially inflate the market price will only hurt in the long run. Its the same illogical argument used for enforced minimum wage. It creates unemployment, higher prices, etc. And what is the magical "fair wage"? $40k/yr? $50k? Hell, why not just force businesses to pay everyone $250k/yr, regardless of skill level? That should solve eveyone's problems, right?

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Snyygast — Sun, 18 May 2008 15:00:24 -0000

Google janitors make around $10 an hour. It was on the news about 2 years ago.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

aiusepsi — Sun, 18 May 2008 14:50:23 -0000

"Meritocracy" is a word the rich and well-off use as an excuse to trample the poor underfoot. It justifies treating people badly, because if they're working such poor jobs, they must be either lazy or stupid, and so deserve what they're getting.

It's really the most terrible myths there is, and it's all the worse because the rich people with all the power, and who make all the decisions, believe it. That's why unions are necessary; to protect the workers from exploitation that they would otherwise be powerless to prevent.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Interesting Twist — Sun, 18 May 2008 14:27:11 -0000

Here's an interesting twist. One of the hardest parts about hacking is gaining physical access. Once you have access either to a network port or to a physical machine, gaining entry to critical systems is trivial. So what you have here is a BUNCH of really pissed off janitors who all have physical access. Seems a very risky proposition in terms of enterprise security. Imagine a competitor trying to steal "secrets" paying $10K to one of these people to plant some small network listening devices or steal a harddrive, whatever. $10K is nothing to a large firm, but a TON of money for someone paid this little.

But, if you paid them well, you engender a sense of loyalty that eliminates some (not all) of this risk.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Stiv Bator — Sun, 18 May 2008 14:26:41 -0000

Andrew,

What I did was read scobles post and know that some commenters would play the glibertarian line.
"Unions are bad'.
It's up there in the comments.
It's not like this is the first post ever about unions.
Alex Plank makes the points I would make.
They all aren't soprano style jersey unions.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Alexander von Halem — Sun, 18 May 2008 13:24:50 -0000

Stiv: missing any actual arguments or facts in your post. Wow. Isn't always great to discuss society's downturns? ... just to add an argument- and fact-free post of my own.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Stiv Bator — Sun, 18 May 2008 12:57:57 -0000

I knew in the comments there would be a handful of libertarians.

Oh yeah, the union might be the problem says one.

Tech libertarians seem to be the most naive/ignorant of real world problems out there.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Alex Plank — Sun, 18 May 2008 12:49:17 -0000

Robert,

Unions serve to protect skilled workers from being mistreated by their employers.

I see no reason you can't support meritocracy and still support unions. In fact, unions work perfectly fine with meritocracies.

Let me give you an example from the film industry. Yes, there are bad directors in the director's guild of America, but do you see these horrible directors being hired for the same jobs as people like Spielberg? All the union does is ensures that everyone is treated fairly and greedy executives don't keep all the millions for themselves without giving anything to the people behind the movies.

Yet, technology people seem to be averse to unions because they feel they're "professionals" and don't need it. This has created an environment where tech people are not paid what they deserve and are frequently treated poorly. There's nothing wrong with the idea that talent will rise to the top but without a union, it's more likely that you'll be unfairly compensated by your employers. It's the nature of the machine.

With the kind of success you have, it's easy to come to the conclusion that unions aren't that great. Sure, talented people like you and I are able to gain recognition and get noticed without the help of a union, but I'd say it's more about us being lucky. Even so, our careers would probably be helped by a union. There are plenty of people who are just as talented as you, but they don't have the same luck.

I just ask that you reconsider your take on unions. It's this kind of elitist attitude that makes working in the tech industry so rough for a lot of people.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Thomas — Sun, 18 May 2008 12:20:17 -0000

So protesting by picking a weekend night that will attract a lot of notice. One would think say a Monday night or the like might attract far more. Odd day to pick.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

francinehardaway — Sun, 18 May 2008 11:17:53 -0000

I have two former foster children who have been janitors. If you make $23,000 per year, you pay 10% in taxes. That takes it down to $21k. Then you have a car. Even without a payment, filling up your car costs $200 a month, which takes it down to $18.5k. You share an apartment, and your rent and utilities are at least $12k a year. That takes it down to $6.5k. Your food is at least $200 a month (with food stamps) That takes it to $4k. So you have about $350 a month for health insurance, car insurance, incidentals, God forbid a car payment, and clothes.

And this is not in Silicon Valley. These are numbers for Arizona. I make these budgets all the time for my kids and even with two of them living together they barely get by. And the CEO becomes a billionaire.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Ed — Sun, 18 May 2008 09:56:20 -0000

The union might be the problem. The unions do collective bargaining so everyone good or bad gets paid the same. Imagine if that was the case with tech people. No one would strive to go the extra mile because you're paid the same as someone who doesn't. Maybe one could pay a good janitor a little more but one can't because you'd have to pay all help the same. Hence, the pay is low for everyone.

On a side note, if you can't in live in Silicon Valley on $23k, how are these people doing it and why don't they relocate to someone cheaper like Las Vegas? What's keeping them in Silicon Valley?

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

B.D. — Sun, 18 May 2008 09:15:19 -0000

Right on, Robert. I was a janitor for a couple of years. It's hard work and the folks who do it have to put up with a lot. They should demand higher wages. If the people who are denying said wages had to clean up after themselves and their employees for a week, then there wouldn't even be a discussion about this. I won't go into the disgusting tales of what I saw from the workers I served (in and out of the tech industry in Bellevue and Redmond, WA, by the way), but it provided me with a whole new perspective on humanity.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

ceejayoz — Sun, 18 May 2008 08:49:32 -0000

"Umm yes, they are, try coding in something outside python."

App Engine isn't even in beta. It's a preview release. They picked one language to start with, not as a final total.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

LL Donovan — Sun, 18 May 2008 08:35:30 -0000

The logic of SearchEngines' last comment fails miserably. Foresight does not make up for the economic circumstances of a person's youth, lack of educational opportunity, or - heaven forbid - a lower IQ that all the smart alecks who can write code. It's not a hard luck story to have fewer natural resources. People are not all the same. There are jobs that many of us have aspired to because we had the capacity to do that. The menial jobs will remain and the folks who do them deserve equity in the job market where they work. Denying the cleaning staff the right to have children or live in decent conditions is not an answer.

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

SearchEngines — Sun, 18 May 2008 07:31:13 -0000

There are a lot worse jobs than being a Janitor in ultra modern Silicon Valley.

$23 k is tough if you are living alone or a single parent - but not if you have another working partner making the same.

Society is not guilty for others who do not use foresight when planning their future. Some immigrants came here to get those jobs that many Silicon Valley educated would never dream of doing.

If you then have a family and choose to stay in the same city to work - it is not society's fault.

They probably get work benefits also - and may live in subsidized housing - as well as get food stamps and Medicaid.

So fucking sick of hard luck stories every day

Re: Silicon Valley’s janitor problem

Christopher Coulter — Sun, 18 May 2008 07:02:10 -0000

that this problem will get solved

Pullling stunts like that will get you fired, what if something toxic was dumped?

No one saying “your type can’t come in here.”

Umm yes, they are, try coding in something outside python. So the Microsoft Windows Mobile, Palm, BREW, RIM, LiMo guys are all welcome? Hah.

Well at least you are consistent, that is, consistently wrong. ;)