Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Peter Parker — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:04:14 -0000

Lets see the top 4 P2P applications of all times are Faroo P2P Search, MetaASO Mermaid Worldwide Multimedia Broadcast Systems, Emule P2P file sharing, Azureus BitTorrent P2P File Sharing

None of these applications can be developed using the Live Mesh. Live Mesh is not open enough to allow the Open Source adopters to hook onto it. It is and will always be a closed source propeitary solution which will work only to further Microsoft's commercial interests. What happened to the Free Software revolution?

Live Mesh has a very heavy infrastructure behind it but it fails on so many counts that one cannot even think that it will succeed on the global scale. The problem lies in attempting to design a universal generic solution for everything and then failing miserably on all counts except some.

As a developer I fail to see how I could use this?

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Christopher Coulter — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:51:51 -0000

And your holier than thou BS is tiresome.

Hey, I agree. Tech rot bores even me. But if I had a blog, then my "holier than thou BS" would be a valuable conversation? Heck, every blogger slash pundit out there operates on "holier than thou BS", and that's the very fuel Scobleizer runs on, it's just the Bay-Areaish "holier than thou BS". My "holier than thou BS" runs more 'will it play in Peoriaish'. Take as will.

you’re way overly dependent on dashes

Beyond guilty as charged, it works in Final Drafty dialogue-mode however. :)

But I wouldn't be so quick to knock those Average Joe's, as they are CONSUMERS, the Mesh target market. But the classic "you don't get it" is circular logic at it's best, like a conspiracy theory where lack of evidence only proves it further, "you don't get it" is a debate killer. And those "good ideas", are little more than wishful thinking at this point. Possible, but not yet proven. And "good ideas" are nothing without "good implementations".

Why don’t you explain the “macroview” and compare .NET to the whole market.

You expecting a book? Not taking that bait. It's your argument, just saying comparing Win32/.Net ISP markets, says nothing about .NET Framework penetration or the scope of Java Enterprise developments etc. etc.

doesn’t really matter much does it?

Considering that without those 5,000 you wouldn't have half of Hollywood and hardly any of Burbank, I'd say it matters. ;) Hollywood does have a lot of Final Cutters, but Burbank is almost all (still) Avid. And in true blogger-elitist-dogma, it's not the SIZE of the audience, rather the INFLUENCE.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

redfish — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:34:06 -0000

"Developers will get excited, then nobody will use it.
Apple will come and make it usable, beautiful and portable.
It is not the idea that counts, it’s the implementation.
And we all know M$ always sucks at that!"

Because of your last sentence I'm not sure whether you're facetious or not.. but I think Media Center is more usable, beautiful and portable than Front Row. The Zune UI is also nicer than the iPod UI.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Mark Ashton — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:39:04 -0000

Coulter, you don't get it. And your holier than thou BS is tiresome. What does Exchange Online have to do with Web apps? Nothing. Exchange is a native Windows app, written in C++, delivered over the wire, mostly to users who will be using Outlook, not OWA. You may spend most of your time in front of Avid "terminals" doesn't really matter much does it? There are about 5000 of you. Go have fun in your dark office.

I certainly haven't argued that "markup as a platform' doesn't have merit. It does, for delivering a half decent experience of delivernig data to my browser and a bit of interactivity. But if I want to do anything interesting, markup doesn't cut it.

If you're referring to MESH as the "vaguely-defined non-shipping raw-concept consumer-targeted marketing-send-up" then (1) you're way overly dependent on dashes and (2) lots of good ideas weren't immediately understood by the average Chris...I mean Joe.

The fact that you get "lots of acceleration on OLD hardware" is just fine and dandy. I made no refernce to new or old hardware. I just like to use the hardware I have for something other than running a Web browser.

Lastly, what the hell does your last paragraph even mean? Why don't you explain the "macroview" and compare .NET to the whole market. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Christopher Coulter — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:52:23 -0000

you’re already stuck in the world of using Web-based apps

Yeah, like Microsoft 'Albany', Microsoft Exchange Online and Microsoft SharePoint Online, Dynamics CRM Online. Pity that.

But eh? The "web apps" would be news to me. Web 2.0 crashy clunky mash-ups, that's the Bay Area and Scoble and Co. Most of my "computing" is done in front of Avid "terminals", hardly web, and not even close to "desktop". So I am already beyond your boxed-in character-scenario definitions. But a philosophical argument over the failing merits of markup as a platform, doesn't automatically mean there is any cloud-sync demand, let alone a vaguely-defined non-shipping raw-concept consumer-targeted marketing-send-up. Now Server underutilization, off the charts.

And funny, I get lots of "acceleration" on OLD hardware, with "faster/more interactive" applications, with "local file system access", after installing Fedora. Thanks for the tip.

The Win32 to .Net migration is a microview, look at the macro, i.e. where is .NET in comparison to the WHOLE market itself.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

tophtucker — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:19:49 -0000

Mark--"Don’t you want to use your machine for what it was designed for? Hardware acceleration? Access to the local file system? Faster/more interactive applications?"

Yes, please. :)

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Mark Ashton — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:16:17 -0000

Hit send to soon on previous. The old canard of Windows development being broken and in a long slide to death has been around for a while. If you're talking about Win32 then you're mostly wrong but partly right. Joe developer is not building a lot of Win32 apps using VB anymore. Those people have turned into scripters/HTML jockeys because it's so much easier and they're riding the rush to the lowest common denominator in app design and performance. But the biggest part of the software industry as a whole is Win32 - both on the client and the server. Look at all of Adobe's software. Quicken. SAP. Oracle for Windows. All the big line of business applications are built using Win32/C++.

Then a large part of the remaining developers are using .NET on Windows. A large chunk of home grown line of busines software is writting using .NET. Although Silverlight brings part of .NET to Windows and eventually Linux, .NET is fundamentally a new programming model/API for building Windows apps.

If that's a long slide into oblivion then I'd geuss that most companies would take it. ;)

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Mark Ashton — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:11:11 -0000

Chris Coulter said..

"I don’t get it, what demand is there for cloud sync? They’d be better off preaching the virtualization gospels.

Windows development is truly broken, I think it will be a slow slide into nothing, a decade-long freefall."

I disagree with your premise that there's no demand for cloud sync. I want it and I see dozens of scenarios where it would solve difficult programming/computing problems. But one possible reason you and others might think there's no demand for cloud sync is that you're already stuck in the world of using Web-based apps for most of your computing. If you're doing that, who cares right? Your data is already on the Web. But then you're living in a world of AJAX/Flash/Flex that turns your PC or Mac or iPhone into an expensive dumb terminal. Don't you want to use your machine for what it was designed for? Hardware acceleration? Access to the local file system? Faster/more interactive applications?

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Mark Ashton — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:06:27 -0000

Eduardo (and others) tried to make the point that Google Gears does what Mesh does.

“Mesh is about letting you use browser-based apps and accessing all your data when you HAVE to but also giving you the choice or running your apps locally when you CAN.”

"Google Gears does that."

Not so much. Google gears sort of kind of makes Web-based apps work when the user us offline. That's nice...but you're still stuck using a Web-based application. MESH is about having your apps and data move with you from device to device and up onto the Web when you want your data there. MESH means that you can use local/native applications when you're using a PC/Mac or other device that supports the application and only forces you into using "native Web" apps when you have to or want to. Big difference.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

tophtucker — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:37:59 -0000

Christopher Coulter -- vaporware? I'm using it right now, and it's going great.

Tom - cling to their Windows dominance? What about the "Mac and mobile versions coming soon" part? I'd say it's more about using all the work done on Windows in a more modern, "connected" way, instead of throwing it away just because it's not in the browser.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Karen — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:59:00 -0000

@ Christopher Coulter.
You're adding ZERO to the discussion. The fact is that no matter what Microsoft did, you'd belittle it and bash it, and everyone knows that. That's why your "input" is so tiresome, because it's based on your hatred of Microsoft and nothing else.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

ValentineS — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:04:08 -0000

This appears to be stuff we already have from other companies, but in an alpha stage, not as pleasant, and kind of mushed together in some type of anamorphic glob.

An I agree with so many others, w/o universal support, there is no way any of it is making it into any of my networks. I run Multiple flavors of MS Windows and Linux, and everything we do also has to play well with Macs. Someone give me a nudge when this works with all three.
Until then, I'll continue to work in the real world w/o rose colored glasses.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Epic — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:57:50 -0000

EPIC FAILURE!!!

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Brad — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:19:57 -0000

There is a really good youtube video that ties this into their strategy quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

ilde — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:36:13 -0000

It comes from microsoft? Fuchi. No, thanks.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Tom — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:19:27 -0000

ok, so now I have had a very good long hard look at this Mesh thing.

My conclusion is that unless they make it easier and more transparent to use it will remain a technology only used by the 10% people that make up the Geek World... people like Scoble etc.

I think the real problem with most things Microsoft makes these days is that they look like they where build by engineers for engineers. The Channel 10 presentation is the perfect example. I seriously doubt that Microsoft in it's current way of doing things will be able to make this work easily for the common punter.

Apple has tried something similar on a much much smaller scale with their integration of .Mac and Leopard. It's easy to use and seamless in that environment yet not many people really seem to make heavy use of it.

I think the bottom line is this is another attempt by Microsoft to cling to their Windows dominance, to make it relevant in a Web only world. I doubt there will be much support for devices or Operating systems not made by Microsoft. It also don't think this will be very useful to people without two way broadband connection and I don't think this will be easy to use...

... in a nutshell this will be a real uphill battle.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Christopher Coulter — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:54:51 -0000

Well, 24 hours later, and the collective response (minus the MVP sugary Fun-Dips) can be summed up thusly: "Huh?"

Vague, mushy-lockbox vaporware, all without a sexy marketing hook. When you are pitching something Consumerish, and even developers are having a hard time wrapping it up, you know it's doomed (well, the mere fact that Scoble is excited, is enough of a short-sell signal to me, but your mileage may vary).

Over-hyped spin yet under a Sinofskyish lock-and-key, contradictions can be best-friends.

WhydoIfeellikewehavebeenherebefore? Failstorm, Part Deuce, hey, great idea, Mesh needs a "Passport" Digital ID system. Only thing missing is trotting out Explainer-in-Chief Charles Fitzgerald to face the press and industry machine-gun fire.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Ken Stewart — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:59:02 -0000

Robert, great links. I'm looking forward to reading through this over the next few days, and probably weeks to come.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

tophtucker — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:04:33 -0000

Gubbi--

Hm. You make some good points--the browser has its advantages. And yes, it's a little annoying having to download the client to facilitate all this. But if it's truly fleshed out as a platform, that should be pretty insignificant in the long run. Sometimes the power and flexibility of offline apps outweights the convenience of doing it in-browser.

So the client is a relatively small, one-time cost. Now they just have to make it worthwhile.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Steve — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:15:34 -0000

I didn't see any mention of you crying after seeing this. Can't be all that great if it didnt make you cry

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

eduardo — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:15:21 -0000

Mark Ashton: "Gubbi - if you want to live in a browser only world you would have loved the days of the IBM Mainframe or mini-computers - its’ the same thing. All of the data and processing happening on centralized machines, connecting up via a dumb terminal. The Web browser is the “modern” equivalent of a dumb terminal."

No, in the old days of the mainframe and mini-computer, the IT department wrote your applications or purchased them, but with the web you have an endless number of individuals and organizations producing applications you can use for free. If you don't understand that difference and why it is so beneficial, then you are really out of touch with reality.

"Mesh is about letting you use browser-based apps and accessing all your data when you HAVE to but also giving you the choice or running your apps locally when you CAN."

Google Gears does that.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to explain again what Microsoft Mesh is supposed to do that can't already be done with Web 2.0, or that could with some additions?

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Frank Daley — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:04:39 -0000

This is awesome. I haven't felt this excited since the day Microsoft launched PlaysForSure.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Dirk Stevens — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:01:20 -0000

Robert, do your job and be critical.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Gubbi — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:55:16 -0000

Toph: I think it’s as much about bringing the web outside of the browser as anything else.

Exactly. And that is why it doesn't make much sense. Why would I want to stay within browser? Because I don't want to install an application for each and every web service on each of my devices. I may even not have those applications ported to all my devices in their initial phases. I don't want to bother with upgrading to latest versions. The only problem Mesh solves is synchronizing my preferences. With this solved, it still sucks to move out of the browser.

Browser is not just another application, its a virtual machine on top of the actual machine.

Re: Ray Ozzie delivers with Live Mesh

Jon — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:23:51 -0000

> Firefox support? Yes! Linux support? What’s that?

That is why I won't be bothering. Seriously, you have to *try* not to support Linux. Telling me how many standards are supported is a waste of time unless they plug seamlessly into my standards compliant system (Kubuntu).

There are 13 mentions of Windows in the article and comments, 6 of Linux, 4 of apple. MS, call me when you're *really* ready to talk (to my desktop).

Not to rain on Mr Ozzies parade at all. Truly cross platform, this would be great stuff!