Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Custody — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:11:34 -0000

NY Times ran an article titled,“ Mothers Scrimp as State Takes Child Support.” It caught my attention because child support is a topic I write about in my book. But you may have skipped it, or not seen at it at all. Why? Because you have to connect with something on an emotional level first in order to express further interest. What you define as a“ must read” may have more to do with your career, your...

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Lloyd Dewolf — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:21:28 -0000

A significant part of Don Dodge's article is that he thinks that teachers are fairly compensated, which I think is absurd!

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Leslie — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:16:14 -0000

Just a note that charter schools are usually non union and many offer incentives for job performance and parent satisfaction or what you would call merit pay. Could this be one of the reasons that charter schools are successful in producing positive results?
Leslie

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Patrick J. Fanelli, Esq. — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:13:01 -0000

As everyone has pointed out, there is plenty of blame and credit to go around. While I have "issues" with the unionization of teachers, those are more philosophical than practical. There are good teachers and there are bad teachers. There are teachers that work hard and teachers that don't. That has nothing to do with unionization.

As a school law and labor law attorney, I can tell you that it is NOT, contrary to the perception of Steve Jobs and many others, impossible to fire teachers. Are there problems (fear of litigation, etc.) that prevent it from being as easy as some would like? Perhaps. But it is not impossible. Nor is it the solution, however.

I do find it interesting, however, that while some are trying to make it easier for individuals to exercise union rights, others are seking to limit those rights for teachers.

Just some food for thought.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

ryan l — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:33:46 -0000

Its not the teachers or even the schools that are to blame for our educational systems lackluster performance.

It is the parents.

The entire perfomance curve is dragged down by parents that can't afford to invest in thier children cause there too busy just trying to figure out how to put food on the plate.

Kids that go to preschool or early childhood education of some sort are much more likely to succeed.

Education is just like any other investment..if you start early and keep a stable input...your going to make out allright.

Unfortunately many can not afford to invest in thier children let alone a 401k.

Jobs would do better to imitate his geekie arch rival and start working on the solution to the problem instead of just bitching about it.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Bob Goldstein — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:24:10 -0000

There isn't any "the" problem. There are many interrelated issues, involving parents, students, gov regulations, and
sure, teachers, principals, and unions.

$80k salaries won't fix it. (I'd pay, if it would.)
Read joelonsoftware.com for essays on how to compensate programmers. Similar ideas apply -- money is important, but the various psychic environments and rewards can be even more important.

Simplistic solutions remind me of the apocryphal
difference between democratic and republican
responses to a man drowning 50 ft off shore.
The republican throws out a 25ft rope and tells
the man to swim halfway, since it's good for
his character. The democrat thows out 100ft
rope and then walks away looking to do other good deeds.

BTW, check out:
www.donorschoose.org
It might not save the world, but it lets you funnel money to individual teachers for specific projects, when they can't get support from the schools.

bobg

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Edward Ferron — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:16:25 -0000

Robert, and Steve;

You make me want to go out and be a teacher (their are some good teachers working in a bad system). Make sure you address the system and not kill the people in the process because you do not have the insight to seperate the good ones from the bad ones. There are bad people in everything and everywhere you go, thus repeating and driving the point home about bad teachers does not help your cause.

Same thing goes for bad parents. I am of the mind set that everyone who has influence like you Robert, you should let your money do some talking and stop waiting on the government to solve our problems. In a country where someone has as much free enterprise start a nation of large private schools sweeping the country, where free enteprise is so available. We spend more time in shouting matches and protest instead of taking action.

This post does make some assumptions that you are not doing anything currently so if that is not the case then I apologize, however if it is the case, that you are doing nothing, well then...

I pray for our nation, school and children...

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Robert Scoble — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:05:30 -0000

Christian: doing a future of learning channel sounds very interesting! You interested in doing something like that?

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Christian — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:31:18 -0000

Robert -- Thanks for tweaking the subject outside of the obvious K-12 echo chamber. Jobs is going to be thrown under the bus or carried atop shoulders because we are more fixated on the either/or mudslinging rather than taking a step back and getting a bigger piece of the horizon line in our view finder.

The 'system' of traditional public K-12 education (this is what he's talking about, and not colleges or private schools or kindercare programs on the weekends) is seen as an infinite ecosystem that must be saved at all costs. Why? Because we're all familiar with it, we've invested insanely to get to this point, and it's pretty iconic.

One of the above comments offered that we still aren't sure if it's about education or socialization -- and he deserves credit for that statement. True. And because we aren't really arguing similar terms, and because (this is the kicker) EVERYONE (myself included) is an 'expert' since we attended as students (at least), everyone can see where others are to blame. But we rarely can offer a firm foundation based on a unified purpose or a set of solutions that are valued by more than a niche audience.

What always surprises me is that when the system was born, there was NO guarantee it'd be around 10 or 25 or 100 years later. It was an epic risk. A risk that offered mass literacy, mass voting access, agrarian to industrial transitions, and so much more at a time in our nation's history when there were very few guarantees that we'd be a global superpower of much worth. And for 150+ years we've been insanely successful -- regardless of what was going on in society or the ugly view in the mirror we had to face (Brown v. Board of Education and 1970's Boston Bus Riots and Reagans 'ketchup as school veggie' for 3 examples). There was no previous example. We pulled it off. Warts and all.

But what about tomorrow? Are we spending more time sticking fingers in watery holes or in asking what we really will need for the future?

Perhaps if we began to imagine that a) we were successful with an epic historical risk at mass proportions and put our nation in a position to chase Sputnik when that seemed so important and b) it's time to focus on 'learning' in ways never before imagined for a change, rather than simply mudslinging about a system that may not have been set up to take us into the future...perhaps then and only then we might make progress other than hunting "Did you hear what Jobs said?" headlines.

Jobs shouldn't be thrown under the bus. He shouldn't be carried atop shoulders, either. If he was just Joe Citizen, it wouldn't matter. Nobody would listen. Or oooh-n-ahhh. It only got the press it did because 'Apple' is named in such a way to endear itself to teachers in the first place (other than the 'knowledge' and Eve metaphor if you're so inclined)...and he seemingly took a shot at those who love him so.

Ironic. Strategic. Whatever.

Why are we spending so much time on his comments? Why not spend more time on John Seeley Brown and Ian Jukes and others who are trying to identify where we need to take it, rather than those who simply want to kick it in the backside from a proprietary point of view?

Just a thought. Blaming one or another or another seems to be only rocks through windows. Either way, we all have to clean it up and all of our property values go down. Loud echo chamber. But the view lacks.

Scoble -- thanks for throwing education sticks and flame together in an area not always discussed on your blog. Brought a smile to my face when the RSS feedtruck came down the street this morning.

My ONLY question to you, Robert, at this point is:

When are you going to add a "Future of Learning" video series at PodTech? You've got a good portioin of the trends covered from India to the newly named gaming/virtual worlds channel. Perhaps the ONE thing that impacts all as we go forward -- LEARNING -- oughta grab a bit of vodcast/vloggies love as well? (he smiles with a hint-hint, nudge-nudge).

Tell me when you and John are ready to launch 'the obvious' and I'd love to help connect some of the dots for you. Considering that your neighbors-down-the-street at Edutopia (George Lucas Educational Foundation) are doing a brilliant job of cornering an educational story-telling market that you could easily get a video foothold in, perhaps there's even a bottom-line upside for you as well. Perhaps (again, a smile)

Or -- he smiles -- is this post conversation just an excuse to talk about Jobs really, and to use 'education' as conversational fodder and left-over bac-o-bits on the salad bar floor when everyone moves over to the nest 'Who link-baited who?' controversy? (grin)

Tell me when you're in Texas next, my friend. I owe you one for being such a good host in Montana last August and letting me enjoy the hot springs as you were daydreaming the video adventure you've recently smacked out of the park. Perhaps I can wrestle down a few CEO's and geeks for you, too!

Cheers,
Christian

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Stephen Rahn — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:59:15 -0000

I was not a math teacher, but I can usually see when things don't add up. The math from the BLS is still not adding up for me, so maybe some of you math guys can help me.

In most cases, a teacher's yearly contract covers approximately 190 days. For the sake of this calculation, I will go with that. If we assume the $34.06 hourly rate over 190 days (8-hour workday, which is what every place I worked in required), then the average salary should be $51,771. This is not taking into consideration ANY outside or "take home" work at all.

The problem is that I can't find any stat that says that the average teacher salary was that high. Most I have found are in the $46-49k range. Even if I could find that it was over 51k, that does not take into account the outside hours. I know that other professions also take work home, but it seems that the BLS isn't taking any into consideration at all.

Again, I am willing to listen to any numbers to help me understand this. The BLS numbers just aren't adding up for me. If you were to go with a 7.5 hour workday, then the numbers are believable, but that is not allowing for any take home work at all.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

grey clay — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:19:27 -0000

Any discussion of performance-based compensation should address criteria to be used in evaluating performance.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Stephen Rahn — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:17:56 -0000

Doug, your article made me laugh out loud when I read the part about "paid lunches" and "rest periods" for teachers. Please tell a 2rd grade teacher about a paid lunch when he or she has to monitor 25 7-year-olds while trying to squeeze in enough time to scarf down a sandwich him/herself. I was a high school teacher, and I ALWAYS had some sort of lunch duty or hall monitoring during my "paid lunch" and "rest period" time. I could barely find a spare minute or two to take a whiz most days. Truly hysterical.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Doug — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:33:44 -0000

The only problem with your post is that unions are also responsible for what we pay teachers. What prevents a superintendent from paying a better performing teacher more than an average teacher isn't politicians - it's the collective bargaining contracts.

There's also some recent research which finds hourly teacher salaries pay above average: http://www.manhattan-instit... Perhaps most surprisingly, public school teachers are paid 61% more per hour than private school teachers.

It's a bit disturbing to see you attack NCLB with such a broad bruch but don't seem to understand what it actually does. You seem to miss that it includes nearly $3 billion to help support increased teacher salaries as well as bonuses for teachers who work with at risk students, hard to staff subjects like math, or improve student performance.

You also make the claim that NCLB is underfunded which is based on the misguided notion that "authorized" funding levels in legislation are somehow promises. They're not - they're spending "caps." Look back at the Clinton budget when the democrats also controlled congress and you'll see similar patterns where neither the president's budget not the congressional appropriations provided the full amount authorized.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

joem — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:41:37 -0000

The world is becoming ever more demanding of intellectual ability but people are not getting any smarter. We have the same genes as our stone-age ancestors. The schools cannot fix what nature did not choose to provide.

Sure, teachers' unions, etc, etc, are a drag. But this is a secondary phenomenon. With increasing desperation, well informed, educated parents are concentrating their children in private schools or pricy suburbs - leaving the rest of the population to its fate.

Until we face up to the essential truth that children vary widely in their intellectual ability, all this discussion is futile.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Tommi — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:13:30 -0000

"Steve Jobs deserves praise for at least speaking half the truth."

Sorry. We (America) are where we are today as a society because of compromising truth.

Everything that comes out of Steve Jobs makes me cringe. He's nothing but the best example of America gone bad but still appearing to be "cool". Whoopee. What a jerk.

If you think the US school system is screwed, try mixing it with the German system. Here's a post of mine that is a bit winded, rants too much, has some bad language, is way too long, but does come full circle and provide first-hand insight into a really screwed up school system.

http://worstwriter.wordpres...

Tommi

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

teacher — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:09:51 -0000

My school's/city's background...

inner city (99% free or reduced lunch), a city where 6/100 students have a college degree after five years, the school with the highest DCFS population in the state, one of the highest AIDS rates and special education populations in the city

...yet we are expected to have all our students testing at a benchmark a wealthy white suburb meets.

I have yet to log a week less than 50+ hours. That hourly wage doesn't deduct the supplies teachers pay for out of pocket.

50% Parents and Students:
What fails to be addressed is the students interest in education. When students will call teachers a "bitch" or tell them to "Go fuck yourself." you will have difficulty retaining the best and the brightest. This may only be a few students, but sexual advances and obscene comments on a regular basis is draining emotional. You can't blame the unions for the students behavior. The parents and a legal rules that allow students to engage and continue in this behavior are responsible.

I love teaching and accept the comparative low pay (I have a BS in mathematics), but I can feel the exhaustion and frustration with the system setting in. I would accept even lower pay if it was to reduce class size.

If teaching was an easy job (John Stossel) you wouldn't have such high attrition rates in low income areas. My last school had a 70+% turnover in 1 year.

Some teachers are horrible, but some become terrible when they check out. The Unions are flawed, but teachers can be fired. Where I am, unless tenured, you can be let go without a reason.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Matt Stoller — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:10:29 -0000

Here's a perspective that you may not have heard.

Jobs' basic argument is that schools hire bad teachers and that they can't be replaced because of union policies. What might surprise you is that, to some extent, I agree with him. It does seem crazy that a person can achieve tenure after three years, and I have no doubt that many union leaders are more interested in protecting teachers than in protecting quality education. Unfortunately, that's as far as Jobs argument goes in terms of making sense. He argues that principals need to be able to hire and fire quality people, ignoring that principals and school administrators are often the cause of the problem, and among the least qualified people working in schools . What sounds like a common sense solution, giving principals more power, ignores their frequent lack of qualification and the simple fact that they HIRED the bad teachers that Jobs condemns. Doesn't that suggest they might not be very skilled at evaulating employees?

Jobs' easy answer is just sloganeering, but one that is occuring in enough places to cause concern. Rather than focusing on systemic inequity, violence, family structure, or the host of social ills that are contributing to failures in American education, let's blame the unions. No one likes them anyway. It's not a hard sell to a public that is desperately looking for answers. Personally, I am tired of teachers blaming everyone but ourselves for problems in education. We do need to take a long, hard look at our methods, effort, and technique, but if Jobs and other critics of education truly wanted to elevate this debate to a place where we can work on real improvement, they need to offer a little more sophisticated insight than "Unions bad!"

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

LPH — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:14:08 -0000

Carla,

I support your efforts to teach but there are funds for teachers to improve themselves.

"Teachers pay for the own education their entire lifetime. That comes out of their yearly wages. Their is no education fund to support continuing education."

There are numerous funding sources for a teacher's education. My teaching certification program was paid, the support program for beginning teachers was paid, as well as many professional development workshops for keeping the certification continues to be paid. New teachers in some states receive tax credits. Plus, some districts will pay signing bonuses for certified teachers. Teachers looking for housing assistance can even get zero down loans. Teachers also receive numerous discounts on products. For example, I received a 150 dollar discount on a cell phone because of my teaching job. Book stores provide discounts because of my job.

BTW: Two years of allowing a teacher in the classroom to teach, who fails to meet standards, is two years too long. The principal is trying to be too cautious about documentation and therefore has weak decision making abilities. Tell the teacher they have 1 week to get it together - quit hugging and pampering. Give the person the time to submit lesson plans with proper standards or face termination. Period. If the teacher fails then the kids will be better off with someone else.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

totaltransformation — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:36:01 -0000

"The plan states which teaching standards must be brought up to proficient levels in order to meet profiency according to her principal"

John, I am curious, what happens if she fails to meet these standards? Will the union allow the school to fire her? Will she be transferred to another school?
The procedure sounds good IF after an unsuccessful attempt at helping her she could face termination for failure.

-J. Kaiser

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Carla — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:18:56 -0000

Jobs speaks out and everyone is listening. I have read all of the blogs posted to date. As a life-time teacher, I have a background from which to speak (if anyone will listen). 1)I knew what I was getting into (i.e. lower wages) for the sake of educating learners. However, wages have not kept up with inflation. Hmmm. 2)I work an average 50 hours a week. Two years ago when I had thirty fifth grade students, that number increased to nearly 60 hours a week at times, which just about exhausted me and my family 3)Parents play a large role in the outcome of education for their children. For example, when considering how well children perform on tests, the testing giant ETS claims that 90% of test performance can be explained by 5 factors: the number of days pupils are absent, the number of hours children watch TV, the number of pages they read for homework, the quality and quantity of reading matter in their homes, and the number of parents in their homes. A teacher can only control the quality of the instruction in the classroom. Yes, a teacher can influence parent involvement with their children, but ultimately, the parent chooses. I believe that parents are the ultimate influence of their child's education. Lucky the parent who moves up the economic scale and has more choice available to them and knows how to manuveur systems 4) Whether you want to believe it or not, public education is political. Not only do teachers need to be involved with current research (reading, trying out new techniques, classwork, etc.), they need to be writing and speaking with their representatives. It is easy for a teacher to feel overwhelmed with decision makers who are not working alongside them in the classrrom. 5) Teachers pay for the own education their entire lifetime. That comes out of their yearly wages. Their is no education fund to support continuing education. They are the fund. 6)Technology plays a large role in today's world, but is only as good as the teacher who knows how to use it. More work needs to be done in that arena. And then there is the factor of updating technology. With technology changing every few years, who will pay for the upgrades and shifts of equipment, software, training, etc.

These are some of the things on my mind while reading the blogs. It makes my blood-pressure rise when reading comments from influential Americans who may not be intimately involved with schools. Only when people get their "feet wet" so to speak, will change happen because teachers will continue to teach. It is their profession and obsession. By the way, in the public school district in which I work, I am currently on a peer assistance team working with a union teacher of 7 seven years who has had two years of below proficient rating. Five professionals (two principals, two classroom teachers, one Title 1 administrator) are helping her meet standards. We have been meeting with since Oct. Since that time, a plan was drafted with the teachers input. The plan states which teaching standards must be brought up to proficient levels in order to meet profiency according to her principal. There have been classroom observations, individual conferences, etc. to help the teacher move towards proficiency. They are being meet with the assistance of her peers. Ultimately, her principal will determine the outcome based on her performance. So far, the forum is working to help "bad teacher's" performance. I would agree with the person who said bad teachers may be those who need improved training and education.

My final comment is this. Get involved with your local schools and local politicians. Every has that right in a democracy. You can influence change. Imagine influencing the lives of millions!

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

John Seals — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:13:14 -0000

Scoble:

So you say teachers should be paid more money and then you blast unions?

How are they supposed to improve their lot? Wait for management/school districts to increase pay/benefits out of the kindness of their hearts?

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Herschel — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:22:55 -0000

Education is not the responsibility of the GOVERNMENT!

Paying teachers 80K a year is not the answer.

The problem with education is what happens to kids when they come home. Parents do not follow up and stay on their children to actually learn. Parents are the final authority and where the majority of issues reside with the poor state of public education system we have today.

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

totaltransformation — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:11:54 -0000

Tell me about it. I have a Master in History and couldn't get a job teaching Social Studies to high schoolers because I lack teaching certifications. However, who ends up teaching that Social Studies class? A guy called coach, whose approach to history is to read the boring textbook word for word.

So instead of teaching high schoolers in a high school, I took a job with a community college were- get this- I will be teaching high schoolers for college credit. Explain that to me?! It makes no sense. It only makes sense if you understand how powerful the unions are.

I know people with Ph.D's who have been turned away by schools because they don't have a four year B.A. in education. It is so sad it is almost funny- but it certainly isn't for the kids who suffer through second rate teachers.

-J. Kaiser

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

JK Phillips — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:51:32 -0000

Well, in NJ teachers with a master and several years experience are paid over $80k per year. Yet, the system still sucks. We drive 35 miles to take our children to private school - and pay $13k a year in real estate taxes. The system sucks because they teach consistently to the lowest common denominator - it is only about standardized test scores - so reading comprehension and critical writing and thinking skills are all but gone. Thank goodness we have the ability to bail out of a broken system. But, I fear for the future of this country since most can;t. The scary part is most parents are OK because their kids are getting A's. But, what they don;t seem to realize is that my son was a straight A student, but no learning. Moved him to a VERY GOOD private school, where writing, critical thinking and basics are what counts. It rocked his world. After a horrible first semester he is back on track and on honor roll. But this time he worked to earn the spot. In our public school a listtle over 1.3 of the entire class made honor roll. Huh?

Re: Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Yuvi Panda — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:50:51 -0000

Now, just wait till you get to the details of the Schools HERE...

And, think about the ones in africa. War torn Iraq. Sri Lanka.