Scobleizer: No Java, no Flash, no .NET/Silverlight for iPhone?
Michael
· 2 years ago
Why would you assume that those things aren't possible? I think there's still some doubt, but my impression is that the announcement today was "if it runs in Safari, it will run on the iPhone, period." Which means Java and Flash are fine - both have been important components of some Web 2 apps since the beginning.
David Geller
· 2 years ago
Expect Flash to run on the iPhone just fine. It appears to be the case in some of the commercials running on TV. Look closely at the one for web browsing with the NYT. The iPhone would be DOA if it didn't support flash. Now, why that's not the preferred development platform for user generated iPhone apps is beyond me. Perhaps it's a download size issue. A typical Flex app will be over 200KB. Multiple times benefit from caching, of course, but the first gulp is a big swallow.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Michael: several people have told me that other runtimes are blocked from running on the phone. Apple wants people to have a good experience with a minimum of tech support calls.
I don't know this to be true for sure, but look at all the wording today. They only say "HTML and AJAX and JavaScript." Not a word about Flash apps. Or Silverlight apps. Or Java apps.
Those all require you to install a runtime. If Apple keeps you from installing a runtime they won't run.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
David: I hope you're right. It'd be nice for someone who has an iPhone (hi Walt!) to tell us what will run on the iPhone. I'll have mine on the 29th, I guess, and will check what runs on it then.
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
Well, again, Java's not a real problem, as of yet, who CARES about Silverlight, (Until Microsoft deals with the extreme trust issues with regard to this kind of song and dance, why should anyone believe this isn't a repeat of ever other "effort" they made in this?), as aside from the "will it survive for more than one major version" question, it's also still in beta and buggy as hell.
Flash however is a problem. But sort of. I've tried to use Flash on phones, and it's not a good experience. The screens are too small, (and I have a phone with a screen that's as big as the iPhones), and that makes it rather difficult to really get anything out of it.
Could the scaling in the iPhone's WebKit build do this? Well, I don't know. Can you just scale a flash application in the browser? I can tell you that from my own (VERY) quick tests, zooming in Flash is not the best experience you'll see. So that means Apple would have to scale flash outside of Flash. Probably not the greatest way to spend a month of coding, since you don't know if the next flash rev is going to fuxxor your code.
As well, it's not like Adobe is keeping the mobile versions up to date. Look at http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/alterna.... Flash 7. What happens if you have a site using features that aren't supported by that version of Flash? Well, you're kind of screwed, and even worse, you stay screwed until Adobe adopts it. What if your device doesn't ship with the flash plugin? (like, oh, IE on WM 2003 or WM 5) From what I can tell, there's no Flash for Treos. So you're either perma-screwed, or maybe-screwed.
But that's the problem with content that requires plugins, isn't it. If the plugin doesn't get updated or gets killed for your platform of choice, then you're screwed.
Don't get me wrong, I like Flash a lot. It solves some neat problems, and allows for some neat stuff. But it's not the perfect solution. It's not going to work real well for every device in every situation. Nor is the way the iPhone is doing things.
But just like I can't run Silverlight on Linux right now because Microsoft isn't supporting it and Mono hasn't gotten it out yet, I can't run, or more correctly, won't be able to run, Flash on an iPhone, or really, most phones. So Silverlight content doesn't exist for Linux, and for most phones, Flash doesn't exist for them. Will that cause problems? Yes. Does that cause problems now? Yes.
What's it mean?
You don't get 100% of the web on the iPhone. If the parts you don't get are parts you *need*, and it HAS to run on your phone, then don't buy an iPhone. Really. If I needed flash on my phone, then I'd be SEVERELY restricted to what I can have for a phone. Such is life.
But for the people who don't need/care Flash/Java on a phone, and there's a lot of them? It's a good option. So I'm thinking the idea that since OMGFLASH hasn't killed every browser-equipped phone as of yet, it's not going to kill the iPhone.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
John: since Steve Jobs keeps saying "the full Safari" is loaded here, why wouldn't the full Flash be too?
There's a lot on the Web that requires Flash. Google's Finance site. YouTube. Yahoo's Maps. Etc. Etc.
gwhiz
· 2 years ago
Mr. Scoble, Let's have someone put together a page or a mini-site that has all of the DHTML, CSS, Java, Flash and Silverlight stuff we can and see how this deal fares at 6:30, June 29th.
Better yet, let's make a simple page with links off to select things and see if Mr. Mossberg (or someone else in the friendly pool) experiences "goodness", "mediocrity" or "yuck".
Whaddya think?
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
John: since Steve Jobs keeps saying “the full Safari” is loaded here, why wouldn’t the full Flash be too?
Robert, flash is no more a part of Safari than it is a part of IE. It's a third party plugin. You DO know the difference between the Browser and plugins, right? May want to revisit those concepts
There’s a lot on the Web that requires Flash. Google’s Finance site. YouTube. Yahoo’s Maps. Etc. Etc.
Well, I can't use those by default on two generations of Windows Mobile by default, yet it's not been a problem for Windows Mobile. Hmm.
You did see the changes they're making to YouTube for the Apple TV? As well, FLV is a video codec, ala MPEG4, H.264, etc. It is perfectly possible to play FLV without the flash plugin.
In fact, QuickTime handles Flash content, (not sure what the limitations are), so since the iPhone does support QuickTime, it may in fact, be incorrect to say that Flash is barred to you on the iPhone. (I'd actually forgotten that until just now, although the story may be as bad in QT as it is on WM
Oooh...Safari 3 warns you if you're about to close a tab with form data on it. Sweet.
seshadri
· 2 years ago
"Robert, flash is no more a part of Safari than it is a part of IE. It’s a third party plugin. You DO know the difference between the Browser and plugins, right? May want to revisit those concepts"
Strawman.
Robert's question is valid. 'Full safari' includes the ability to install flash plugin which would provide support of play flash files.
seshadri
· 2 years ago
"support of play flash files" support playing flash files...
seshadri
· 2 years ago
"support playing flash files…" No. that sentence is wrong too..please correct it yourself :-(
anon
· 2 years ago
This is very disappointing - doesn't this mean no Bluetooth access, no SIM info access, no Contacts access, etc?
Web applications are not phone applications. Google Maps on the iPhone is a true iPhone application. Web applications are not.
What an insult.
Erik
· 2 years ago
Flash is a processor pig.
If the battery is an issue, then they will want to avoid working the processor too hard.
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
Strawman.
Only if Apple makes flash. Which it doesn't. The lack of flash support in phones in general is an issue that Adobe has to address, and considering the memory constraints of a lot of phones, (in fact the majority), I think they're going to have to rethink that plugin model anyway.
Robert’s question is valid. ‘Full safari’ includes the ability to install flash plugin which would provide support of play flash files.
Wow, a strawman combined with ignorance. *Safari* does not allow you to install shit. That's the *OS*. Do you need a lesson in what the difference between an OS and an application is? If you set OS permissions to disallow access to the required folders, then you can't install the plugin. Safari will let you download it, although again, you can use the OS to prevent this as well, but you still can't install it. So much for *safari* allowing you to install it. CompSci 101 happened to other people in your world?
Again, if this is so critical, then please to explain why almost NO mobile phone has flash support. Just queried some Nokias here. Not only no Flash Built In, but no way to get it, as the Adobe Flash Download site, (you know, the people who make flash) doesn't support them. Wow, permascrewed.
Where's the Nokia version of Silverlight? Wheres the version for JavaOS phones? Who's going to do that, since obviously Microsoft won't?
Plugins on devices with severe memory constraints is a real problem, and as web browsers on them improve, a problem that will have to be answered.
seshadri
· 2 years ago
@14 - strawmen(if there's such a thing).
I didn't talk about whether Flash support is essential or not. I am refering specifically to Robert's question.
"Wow, a strawman combined with ignorance. *Safari* does not allow you to install shit. That’s the *OS*. Do you need a lesson in what the difference between an OS and an application is?"
Okay. I come from Ice age.
You tell me - whether flash plays or not on a browser is determined by the OS?
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
You tell me - whether flash plays or not on a browser is determined by the OS?
I can accept people misquoting me. But you are not misquoting YOURSELF:
‘Full safari’ includes the ability to install flash plugin which would provide support of play flash files.
You were talking about installing flash, and that's an OS function.
You're also using that as a strawman to the point that *adobe*, and no one else determines how you can integrate flash content into a browser. If it requires a plugin, then right now, damned near every non-WM phone is fucked when it comes to flash, because Adobe only makes phone plugins for WM phones. Ironically, since QuickTime can handle at least SOME Flash content, and the iPhone DOES include QuickTime, it may be less of a problem for the iPhone than it is for other devices.
However, even the bigger phones, memory-wise, are rather limited from a memory standpoint. I have a PPC-6601, which has the ASTOUNDING amount of phone ram....128MB, and that's for the OS, and application execution. Storage happens on a SD card, but that's not where execution happens. So right now, with no third party applications running, i have 6.3MB of free space for program execution. Where the hell is flash going to do its work? Esp. on WM, where you "minimize" instead of closing, so applications keep running and taking up space.
I'm not saying this isn't a problem. It is, a lot of the Web uses flash, and most of it quite well.
But as long as Adobe is pushing a downloaded plugin architecture, then it's a problem for every mobile phone that isn't running Windows, because they're all fuxxored. The question is, how is adobe going to fix this beyond video playback. That's pretty simple.
The Flash question is not going to get solved without some real work by Adobe.
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
He keeps pointing out that it has the full Safari engine. That gives us hope that Flash will run fine on it, but probably not “native, non-browser” technologies like Java and Silverlight.
When did Flash become a native part of every browser?
Avatar
· 2 years ago
when jobs refers to the full safari engine, he must mean the core... but a core can be either locked or open..in this case it seems the core is a locked core..and there is simple reason for that.. a browser consumes resources in a very erratic way while having plugins or runtimes... it has spikes of ram and processor surges too high for the power of the iphone.. so for the moment i think it will start as a locked core, however, it is easy to unlock later own.. but for a launch is more that understandable that they want as less problems as possible.
Brevin
· 2 years ago
He keeps pointing out that it has the full Safari engine. That gives us hope that Flash will run fine on it, but probably not “native, non-browser” technologies like Java and Silverlight. It’d be nice to have someone who actually has an iPhone to verify this, though.
Huh? Flash and Silverlight are both plugins. Why would one be "native" and not the other?
Welch, this has nothing to do with your hatred of Microsoft. You will avoid visiting any Silverlight pages because of said hatred, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice for iPhone to support such pages; Microsoft lined up some major partners with major sites, such as MLB, and it would be nice for those site's advanced features to be supported on iPhone, particuarly since Silverlight targets the Mac and Safari already.
mike
· 2 years ago
"He keeps pointing out that it has the full Safari engine. That gives us hope that Flash will run fine on it, but probably not “native, non-browser” technologies like Java and Silverlight. It’d be nice to have someone who actually has an iPhone to verify this, though."
It takes a certain kind of idiot to be so skeptical about such a nice device.
Here we go kids. Take any Apple notebook. Does Flash work? Yea. Silverlight works. Everything in the world works.
Okay now break off the keyboard and put a touch screen in. Now divide the screen real estate by 4.
That's an iPhone.
It's a handheld computer with a PHONE program (and a bunch more).
Enough with the bullshit strawmen arguments. iPhone runs OS X.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Mike and everyone else: except OSX on iPhone isn't really a "full OS" because unlike OSX on Macintosh we aren't sure you can install ANYTHING. It sure would be nice for someone with an iPhone to tell us what we can install on it.
John Poisson
· 2 years ago
We'd love to port our Radar mobile app into a robust and open Java implementation for iPhone. (Frankly the arguments against it are specious and tendentious. Security concerns? Really?)
But no mobile platform is perfect--not even the iPhone--and if webapps are meant to be the bright shining future, rest assured we'll provide a fully engaging Radar experience for the iPhone browser.
David Geller
· 2 years ago
If iPhone doesn't have Flash 9, it will be a huge disappointment to everyone. I've got to believe both Adobe and Apple want this to happen. Also, the spirit of what Jobs has been publicly saying suggests that what we would all see in terms of general, out of the box use of Safari would be present on the iPhone. If that's true, that means Flash. OS X comes with the Flash plug-in installed for Safari. Also, if you check the installed plug-ins page for Safari you'll see that Quicktime appears to be responsible for a lot of the common image and video handling done. According to the summary I'm seeing, mime types such as image/png, video/avi, video/mp4, video/x-mpeg, etc. So, if iPhone doesn't have some standard plug-in support, lots of stuff, including Apple's own website, won't display properly.
Ioannus de Verani
· 2 years ago
Robert: why are you worried about some Google Maps app not working on iPhone? They already have a (supposedly) awesome app for GMaps built in...
Mr_Cynical
· 2 years ago
'No .NET apps, no Silverlight apps'
Sorry Scoble, but that's what happens when you rely on proprietary formats and runtime libraries, instead of open standards.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
24: Ioannus: well, I'll reserve judgment until I see the Google Maps version that works on the iPhone. The version I have on my cell phone is awesome. Shows me traffic and more.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Mr_Cynical: OK, but tons of Web sites rely on Flash and lots rely on Java on mobile phones to do really killer applications. It'll be interesting to see how this evolves when the iPhone is actually shipped.
leechio
· 2 years ago
I recall being in a lecture by James Gosling (Java creator) earlier this year, when he went on a bit of a rant about Apple. The two things he mentioned most were the underdevelopment of OSX and the iPhone. In particular, the way Apple were refusing to support J2ME or any variant thereof.
Could this point-blank refusal mean Apple will pull their own development platform out of a hat? The folks at Apple are smart - I don't think they're going to just snub their devoted developers with 'ooh, you can use AJAX'. Something's in the pipeline...
Ewan Spence
· 2 years ago
Robert, pick up your N95. Run the we browser. It uses web core, or to translate from English to Job-sian "the full Safari engine." At best the N95 will be able to run Adobe's flash lite runtime as a plugin, but beyond that nope. Given the similar processor speeds and capabilities on iPhone compared to the N95, I'd be very surprised if full flash appears in this iteration.
Tomi Itkonen
· 2 years ago
From the announcement:
"Developers can create Web 2.0 applications ... which can seamlessly access iPhone’s services, including making a phone call, ..."
So, an iPhone Web 2.0 application can make a phone call. Are they going to add phoneto: command to link tag, like mailto:?
I guess there'll be a message: "An application is trying to start a phone call, click OK to accept it."
Mike
· 2 years ago
Just a quick question for you: on your N95, can you run .Net application? I guess not. Don't expect from mobile device escpecially from Apple to be 100% compatible with everything on the market. And pointing out lacking applications from Window Mobile available for iPhone is just silly IMO.
Erik
· 2 years ago
Okay now break off the keyboard and put a touch screen in. Now divide the screen real estate by 4.
That’s an iPhone.
It’s a handheld computer with a PHONE program (and a bunch more).
Enough with the bullshit strawmen arguments. iPhone runs OS X.
That's marketing speak.
iPhone runs a stripped down subset of OSX. The full OSX install takes 3 gig of storage, the iPhone only has 4 gig. That would not even leave enough storage for a single movie. Do you want a device that uses 75% of it's resources just on OS overhead?
We don't know what has been stripped out.
Tom B
· 2 years ago
I wouldn't touch Silverlight. I know you used to work for MSFT, Mr. Scoble, but: 1) Silverlight is only partially implemented on the Mac 2) there are trust issues 3) there are good alternatives. I expect Silverlight will see VERY LITTLE adoption on the web, given that most web dev is done on Macs.
Luke
· 2 years ago
Rather than try to read things into what Jobs said, just accept what he did say. iPhone 3rd-party "apps" are limited to AJAX web apps. If you want to develop for iPhone, you're stuck with AJAX. End of story.
Todd Stellanova
· 2 years ago
The real shame here is that Apple has not chosen to create an open platform for third-party development. Certainly there are a lot of useful info-grabbing apps you can write within the AJAX framework, but what about access to the iPhone's address book, its camera, its media files? Rather than "the full Safari" environment, we'd prefer the "full Dashboard" environment, where we could get access to more useful phone services. Instead of just a "tel:+14155551212" link, we'd like to launch the address book application and allow the user to select a contact. Maybe it is possible to access these extended services using javascript on the iPhone, but the fact is that Apple has made zero iPhone developer documentation publicly available. Instead we're left guessing-- and the iPhone will have far fewer apps and services available for it for months to come.
So, no SDK, no Flash (let alone Silverlight), and no Java.
Chris
· 2 years ago
"given that most web dev is done on Macs."
I have to strongly disagree there. I do agree that Silverlight, or ActiveX 2.0 is bound to meet the same fate as ActiveX v.1 without ever hitting the top of the bell.
I also predict failure for the ultramobile computers, for the coffee table machine, and for the Zune. With MS, it's easy to be right 80% of the time.
Tom B
· 2 years ago
"With MS, it’s easy to be right 80% of the time."
Well, I think they only make money on Windows and Office. Someone can correct me if that has changted recently?
Chris
· 2 years ago
"Well, I think they only make money on Windows and Office."
This isn't Windows 95 and Jay Leno isn't on the screen anymore. Their sales are shrinking, and these new gadgets and clones are their attempt to grab some solid rock to keep from slipping down the side of the mountain.
Mike
· 2 years ago
@Chris, you more than wrong! MS sold more licenses for Vista than for WXP in the first 100 days of release. Sales are shrinking? Nope. It's getting better...
Wolfman-K
· 2 years ago
If it runs full blown Safari just like OS X, then Jobs has no control over what web apps are possible, but it was nice of him to say he's "allowing" them. It doesn't look like you'll be able to download and run Java apps, or anything of the sort, but Javascript (AJAX) stuff should be possible in safari, as long as its all in the Safari sandbox its has his Steveness's blessing.
lame.
Chris
· 2 years ago
"but Javascript (AJAX) stuff should be possible in safari"
I haven't tried them in Safari yet, but I know that none of the MS atlas stuff works in Konqueror, the browser Safari shares the rendering code with. I hope Atlas doesn't work properly on my iPhone or on the new Mac I just got for the office.
I would pay a premium to have MS platforms not work on my computing devices.
Chris
· 2 years ago
http://www.beercosoftware.com/atlasmac.jpg Woot, there it is. Atlas at it's finest. No iPhone for you MS devs! This was on a brand spanking new 24" iMac with core duo 2.16 cpu, and OSX Tiger 10.4
Jave, Flash and .Net? The iPhone is not meant to be a like all those other crappy phones. Why should it run all the crappy slow software that is the bloat-ware of the internet. Not saying that won't be it's downfall, but still at least try and do things right.
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
Welch, this has nothing to do with your hatred of Microsoft. You will avoid visiting any Silverlight pages because of said hatred, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be nice for iPhone to support such pages; Microsoft lined up some major partners with major sites, such as MLB, and it would be nice for those site’s advanced features to be supported on iPhone, particuarly since Silverlight targets the Mac and Safari already.
Nonsense. Currently I avoid them because Silverlight 1.1 crashes both Safari and Firefox. When I get an update that doesn't do this, I'll take a look. My reasons for not taking Silverlight seriously is based on Microsoft's well - documented and rich history of starting, then quickly abandoning various cross-platform efforts. Microsoft has a trust issue in this area, and they have yet to seriously attempt to answer it beyond "No really guys, this time it's different." Well, they said that all the other times too. Why is this time different?
What's Microsoft's answer for Nokia Phones? For Treos running Palm? JavaOS Phones?
You're also conveniently avoiding the problem of high-memory use plugins on a memory limited device like a phone, like...um...flash and Silverlight. The Mac plugin needs almost 30MB to just sit on my hard drive. How well is that going to work on devices like my WM 2003 device that ship with only 128MB of RAM, (Or less) for storage AND program execution?
That's a problem for everyone wanting to reach smartphone-style devices, not just the iPhone, and your insistence that this is only a problem for Apple is far more delusional than anything you accuse ME of.
skc
· 2 years ago
Maybe Jobs needs to stop lying to the public. You can't on the one hand say the phone runs OSX and Safari but leave out the fact that you're actually gimping them.
AJAX as an SDK for a phone. Wow. Laughable.
John C. Welch
· 2 years ago
Mike and everyone else: except OSX on iPhone isn’t really a “full OS” because unlike OSX on Macintosh we aren’t sure you can install ANYTHING. It sure would be nice for someone with an iPhone to tell us what we can install on it.
Robert, stop trying to get technical, because honestly, you don't know what an OS is. The version of OS X on the iPHone does not have everything that OS X on your MacBook, because if nothing else, you'd need it to have an iPod and a 12" screen. Most of the userland is not there. Is it a "full" OS? yes. Is it the same byte-for-byte OS as on your MacBook? No. But it is still as much a "full" OS as the OS on your Nokia, on my WM phones, on a treo, or a Razr.
anon
· 2 years ago
Oh my gawd. No proprietary Microsoft .Net or silverlight on iPhone means it's DOOMED I tell you. DOOMED.
You need to get some new material, Bob. You couldn't PAY me to install that Microsoft proprietary garbage - maybe that's why Bill & Co have to violate the law in order to enter a market.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Anon: it'll have an Apple logo on it, so it's far from doomed.
But, I sure wish it had Java and Flash.
Some Guy
· 2 years ago
Java, Silverlight, and Flash bring nothing to the party, so the iPhone isn't going to waste the storage for them.
Here's what it boils down to: no cruft, no crap.
Chris
· 2 years ago
A man just walked into our office. He didn't knock or anything. He gave each of us a business card with a smiley face that said something to the effect of "Help me financially, I'm deaf and the govt won't help". I stared blankly and gave him the card back. Mostly because I didn't have any $5's on me, and he left. The others did too. I wanted to Google some resources for him, but I was almost stuck like a dear in headlights. Our building is open to the public. This just happened, so I'm still thinking about it. The guy walked right into my office. Now I feel bad.
So all this to say it doesn't matter what we think or feel about the iPhone's display capabilities, because we are not steering the ship. That would be Steve Jobs and Scoble can't get his prime time it would seem for an interview. The last time Scoble ran into Jobs with Dave Winer Jobs chastised him for stealing Apple stuff and putting it into IE.
All this to say that Scoble should repair his booboos with Apple and get an interview with Jobs and ask him himself.
James
· 2 years ago
Although I shouldn't be making such a bold statement about an Apple product, iPhone looks like it's going to be a flop! :)
Michael
· 2 years ago
I hope this isn't true; I'm looking forward to the iPhone (who isn't?) with Flash / Silverlight. I hope it's okay -- I've added this article to the Silverlight forum I'm building, credited to you: silverlightsaber.com
Comic Strip Blogger
· 2 years ago
iphone must have 3G and GPS first of all - the running of 3rd party applications is not SO important - after all Apple probably HAS some internal SDK - because for example Google Maps for iphone was developed by Google, not by Apple... but they will give this secret SDK only to chosen companies...
Song Kim
· 2 years ago
I really enjoyed your comments. Also looked up the original story. I blog it. too.
David Bennett
· 2 years ago
Job’s stance against Java has nothing to do its popularity or size and everything to do with keeping the iPhone proprietary. If Apple were to support Java, they would have to support open standards which would mean that applications would be portable to other mobile devices. This is the same proprietary, closed system strategy that Microsoft has been using to maintain their strangle hold on various markets. Of course, the Mac groupies will buy anything Apple creates. I am hoping the developer community just says no to the iPhone.
Neil Anderson
· 2 years ago
This is just the beginning. The best is yet to come.
Some Guy
· 2 years ago
"everything to do with keeping the iPhone proprietary"
Didn't you get the memo? Java is the property of Sun Microsystems, and has never been submitted to any independent standards body.
mike
· 2 years ago
iphone must have 3G and GPS first of all - the running of 3rd party applications is not SO important - after all Apple probably HAS some internal SDK - because for example Google Maps for iphone was developed by Google, not by Apple… but they will give this secret SDK only to chosen companies… --
Duh. Google is a company of websites. That's just an online app customized for iPhone: exactly what Apple has told devs to make.
You get a bookmark and put it on the iPhone homescreen.
*waves banner
Mission Accomplished.
Next?
Bahi
· 2 years ago
"Google Maps for iphone was developed by Google, not by Apple," says ComicStipBlogger. Not true, according to Jobs interviews. Apple developed it using the regular Google API to send and retrieve Google maps data and showed it to the Google folks afterwards.
Unlock iPhones as much as u want available here!!!
No it's not a shameless plug I just know some1 who bought iphone from them and is using in Bombay, India!
Matt
· 1 year ago
As a developer of Java applications for Blackberry I think Apple and the iPhone are missing a huge opportunity for innovative 3rd party applications for their customers. A closed system might be more secure but it will also limit customer options? Isn’t the iPhone supposed to change the closed end cellular phone business model that limits innovation and choices for customers? I hope the upcoming iPhone SDK mirror some of the great benefits offered by languages like Java.
Boycott Apple
· 1 year ago
"Isn’t the iPhone supposed to change the closed end cellular phone business model..."
Matt, Are you kidding me? Don't you know who Steve Jobs is? The guy is a metaphor of greed and total lack of consideration for others. His only interest is to keep making more money and enjoying the applauses of the lobotomized devotees, for whom he has no respect, that gather at his keynotes!
His only ambition in life is to get consumers locked-in to spend more money for Apple products.
It is a sad thing for man kind and progress to have to suffer the ego of some very influential misguided leaders.
David
· 1 year ago
iPhone still needs to add more features for people who want to use it for work such as copy/paste! Such a simple feature but yet not available.
People must not forget to read through just about it. Somebody will notice the freelance writing in the internet.
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All Comments
I don't know this to be true for sure, but look at all the wording today. They only say "HTML and AJAX and JavaScript." Not a word about Flash apps. Or Silverlight apps. Or Java apps.
Those all require you to install a runtime. If Apple keeps you from installing a runtime they won't run.
Flash however is a problem. But sort of. I've tried to use Flash on phones, and it's not a good experience. The screens are too small, (and I have a phone with a screen that's as big as the iPhones), and that makes it rather difficult to really get anything out of it.
Could the scaling in the iPhone's WebKit build do this? Well, I don't know. Can you just scale a flash application in the browser? I can tell you that from my own (VERY) quick tests, zooming in Flash is not the best experience you'll see. So that means Apple would have to scale flash outside of Flash. Probably not the greatest way to spend a month of coding, since you don't know if the next flash rev is going to fuxxor your code.
As well, it's not like Adobe is keeping the mobile versions up to date. Look at http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/alterna.... Flash 7. What happens if you have a site using features that aren't supported by that version of Flash? Well, you're kind of screwed, and even worse, you stay screwed until Adobe adopts it. What if your device doesn't ship with the flash plugin? (like, oh, IE on WM 2003 or WM 5) From what I can tell, there's no Flash for Treos. So you're either perma-screwed, or maybe-screwed.
But that's the problem with content that requires plugins, isn't it. If the plugin doesn't get updated or gets killed for your platform of choice, then you're screwed.
Don't get me wrong, I like Flash a lot. It solves some neat problems, and allows for some neat stuff. But it's not the perfect solution. It's not going to work real well for every device in every situation. Nor is the way the iPhone is doing things.
But just like I can't run Silverlight on Linux right now because Microsoft isn't supporting it and Mono hasn't gotten it out yet, I can't run, or more correctly, won't be able to run, Flash on an iPhone, or really, most phones. So Silverlight content doesn't exist for Linux, and for most phones, Flash doesn't exist for them. Will that cause problems? Yes. Does that cause problems now? Yes.
What's it mean?
You don't get 100% of the web on the iPhone. If the parts you don't get are parts you *need*, and it HAS to run on your phone, then don't buy an iPhone. Really. If I needed flash on my phone, then I'd be SEVERELY restricted to what I can have for a phone. Such is life.
But for the people who don't need/care Flash/Java on a phone, and there's a lot of them? It's a good option. So I'm thinking the idea that since OMGFLASH hasn't killed every browser-equipped phone as of yet, it's not going to kill the iPhone.
There's a lot on the Web that requires Flash. Google's Finance site. YouTube. Yahoo's Maps. Etc. Etc.
Better yet, let's make a simple page with links off to select things and see if Mr. Mossberg (or someone else in the friendly pool) experiences "goodness", "mediocrity" or "yuck".
Whaddya think?
Robert, flash is no more a part of Safari than it is a part of IE. It's a third party plugin. You DO know the difference between the Browser and plugins, right? May want to revisit those concepts
There’s a lot on the Web that requires Flash. Google’s Finance site. YouTube. Yahoo’s Maps. Etc. Etc.
Well, I can't use those by default on two generations of Windows Mobile by default, yet it's not been a problem for Windows Mobile. Hmm.
You did see the changes they're making to YouTube for the Apple TV? As well, FLV is a video codec, ala MPEG4, H.264, etc. It is perfectly possible to play FLV without the flash plugin.
In fact, QuickTime handles Flash content, (not sure what the limitations are), so since the iPhone does support QuickTime, it may in fact, be incorrect to say that Flash is barred to you on the iPhone. (I'd actually forgotten that until just now, although the story may be as bad in QT as it is on WM
Oooh...Safari 3 warns you if you're about to close a tab with form data on it. Sweet.
Strawman.
Robert's question is valid. 'Full safari' includes the ability to install flash plugin which would provide support of play flash files.
support playing flash files...
No. that sentence is wrong too..please correct it yourself :-(
Web applications are not phone applications. Google Maps on the iPhone is a true iPhone application. Web applications are not.
What an insult.
If the battery is an issue, then they will want to avoid working the processor too hard.
Only if Apple makes flash. Which it doesn't. The lack of flash support in phones in general is an issue that Adobe has to address, and considering the memory constraints of a lot of phones, (in fact the majority), I think they're going to have to rethink that plugin model anyway.
Robert’s question is valid. ‘Full safari’ includes the ability to install flash plugin which would provide support of play flash files.
Wow, a strawman combined with ignorance. *Safari* does not allow you to install shit. That's the *OS*. Do you need a lesson in what the difference between an OS and an application is? If you set OS permissions to disallow access to the required folders, then you can't install the plugin. Safari will let you download it, although again, you can use the OS to prevent this as well, but you still can't install it. So much for *safari* allowing you to install it. CompSci 101 happened to other people in your world?
Again, if this is so critical, then please to explain why almost NO mobile phone has flash support. Just queried some Nokias here. Not only no Flash Built In, but no way to get it, as the Adobe Flash Download site, (you know, the people who make flash) doesn't support them. Wow, permascrewed.
Where's the Nokia version of Silverlight? Wheres the version for JavaOS phones? Who's going to do that, since obviously Microsoft won't?
Plugins on devices with severe memory constraints is a real problem, and as web browsers on them improve, a problem that will have to be answered.
I didn't talk about whether Flash support is essential or not. I am refering specifically to Robert's question.
"Wow, a strawman combined with ignorance. *Safari* does not allow you to install shit. That’s the *OS*. Do you need a lesson in what the difference between an OS and an application is?"
Okay. I come from Ice age.
You tell me - whether flash plays or not on a browser is determined by the OS?
I can accept people misquoting me. But you are not misquoting YOURSELF:
‘Full safari’ includes the ability to install flash plugin which would provide support of play flash files.
You were talking about installing flash, and that's an OS function.
You're also using that as a strawman to the point that *adobe*, and no one else determines how you can integrate flash content into a browser. If it requires a plugin, then right now, damned near every non-WM phone is fucked when it comes to flash, because Adobe only makes phone plugins for WM phones. Ironically, since QuickTime can handle at least SOME Flash content, and the iPhone DOES include QuickTime, it may be less of a problem for the iPhone than it is for other devices.
However, even the bigger phones, memory-wise, are rather limited from a memory standpoint. I have a PPC-6601, which has the ASTOUNDING amount of phone ram....128MB, and that's for the OS, and application execution. Storage happens on a SD card, but that's not where execution happens. So right now, with no third party applications running, i have 6.3MB of free space for program execution. Where the hell is flash going to do its work? Esp. on WM, where you "minimize" instead of closing, so applications keep running and taking up space.
I'm not saying this isn't a problem. It is, a lot of the Web uses flash, and most of it quite well.
But as long as Adobe is pushing a downloaded plugin architecture, then it's a problem for every mobile phone that isn't running Windows, because they're all fuxxored. The question is, how is adobe going to fix this beyond video playback. That's pretty simple.
The Flash question is not going to get solved without some real work by Adobe.
When did Flash become a native part of every browser?
Huh? Flash and Silverlight are both plugins. Why would one be "native" and not the other?
Welch, this has nothing to do with your hatred of Microsoft. You will avoid visiting any Silverlight pages because of said hatred, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice for iPhone to support such pages; Microsoft lined up some major partners with major sites, such as MLB, and it would be nice for those site's advanced features to be supported on iPhone, particuarly since Silverlight targets the Mac and Safari already.
It takes a certain kind of idiot to be so skeptical about such a nice device.
Here we go kids. Take any Apple notebook. Does Flash work? Yea. Silverlight works. Everything in the world works.
Okay now break off the keyboard and put a touch screen in. Now divide the screen real estate by 4.
That's an iPhone.
It's a handheld computer with a PHONE program (and a bunch more).
Enough with the bullshit strawmen arguments. iPhone runs OS X.
But no mobile platform is perfect--not even the iPhone--and if webapps are meant to be the bright shining future, rest assured we'll provide a fully engaging Radar experience for the iPhone browser.
Sorry Scoble, but that's what happens when you rely on proprietary formats and runtime libraries, instead of open standards.
Could this point-blank refusal mean Apple will pull their own development platform out of a hat? The folks at Apple are smart - I don't think they're going to just snub their devoted developers with 'ooh, you can use AJAX'. Something's in the pipeline...
"Developers can create Web 2.0 applications ... which can seamlessly access iPhone’s services, including making a phone call, ..."
So, an iPhone Web 2.0 application can make a phone call. Are they going to add phoneto: command to link tag, like mailto:?
I guess there'll be a message: "An application is trying to start a phone call, click OK to accept it."
That’s an iPhone.
It’s a handheld computer with a PHONE program (and a bunch more).
Enough with the bullshit strawmen arguments. iPhone runs OS X.
That's marketing speak.
iPhone runs a stripped down subset of OSX. The full OSX install takes 3 gig of storage, the iPhone only has 4 gig. That would not even leave enough storage for a single movie. Do you want a device that uses 75% of it's resources just on OS overhead?
We don't know what has been stripped out.
Rather than "the full Safari" environment, we'd prefer the "full Dashboard" environment, where we could get access to more useful phone services. Instead of just a "tel:+14155551212" link, we'd like to launch the address book application and allow the user to select a contact.
Maybe it is possible to access these extended services using javascript on the iPhone, but the fact is that Apple has made zero iPhone developer documentation publicly available. Instead we're left guessing-- and the iPhone will have far fewer apps and services available for it for months to come.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/fast-and-furious/no-...
** No Adobe Flash Support on the iPhone **
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/06/12/no-flash-su...
** The No-SDK Cheat **
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18073/Editorial...
So, no SDK, no Flash (let alone Silverlight), and no Java.
I have to strongly disagree there. I do agree that Silverlight, or ActiveX 2.0 is bound to meet the same fate as ActiveX v.1 without ever hitting the top of the bell.
I also predict failure for the ultramobile computers, for the coffee table machine, and for the Zune. With MS, it's easy to be right 80% of the time.
Well, I think they only make money on Windows and Office. Someone can correct me if that has changted recently?
This isn't Windows 95 and Jay Leno isn't on the screen anymore. Their sales are shrinking, and these new gadgets and clones are their attempt to grab some solid rock to keep from slipping down the side of the mountain.
lame.
I haven't tried them in Safari yet, but I know that none of the MS atlas stuff works in Konqueror, the browser Safari shares the rendering code with.
I hope Atlas doesn't work properly on my iPhone or on the new Mac I just got for the office.
I would pay a premium to have MS platforms not work on my computing devices.
Woot, there it is. Atlas at it's finest. No iPhone for you MS devs!
This was on a brand spanking new 24" iMac with core duo 2.16 cpu, and OSX Tiger 10.4
http://atlas.freshlogicstudios.com/
I knew it was not going to work because of Konqueror, but like a good scientist, I had to test it.
They also make big money in dev tools, enterprise business software, servers, etc.
Oh no, you didn't just go there. You did.
http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone
Let's go there too.
Nonsense. Currently I avoid them because Silverlight 1.1 crashes both Safari and Firefox. When I get an update that doesn't do this, I'll take a look. My reasons for not taking Silverlight seriously is based on Microsoft's well - documented and rich history of starting, then quickly abandoning various cross-platform efforts. Microsoft has a trust issue in this area, and they have yet to seriously attempt to answer it beyond "No really guys, this time it's different." Well, they said that all the other times too. Why is this time different?
What's Microsoft's answer for Nokia Phones? For Treos running Palm? JavaOS Phones?
You're also conveniently avoiding the problem of high-memory use plugins on a memory limited device like a phone, like...um...flash and Silverlight. The Mac plugin needs almost 30MB to just sit on my hard drive. How well is that going to work on devices like my WM 2003 device that ship with only 128MB of RAM, (Or less) for storage AND program execution?
That's a problem for everyone wanting to reach smartphone-style devices, not just the iPhone, and your insistence that this is only a problem for Apple is far more delusional than anything you accuse ME of.
AJAX as an SDK for a phone. Wow. Laughable.
Robert, stop trying to get technical, because honestly, you don't know what an OS is. The version of OS X on the iPHone does not have everything that OS X on your MacBook, because if nothing else, you'd need it to have an iPod and a 12" screen. Most of the userland is not there. Is it a "full" OS? yes. Is it the same byte-for-byte OS as on your MacBook? No. But it is still as much a "full" OS as the OS on your Nokia, on my WM phones, on a treo, or a Razr.
You need to get some new material, Bob. You couldn't PAY me to install that Microsoft proprietary garbage - maybe that's why Bill & Co have to violate the law in order to enter a market.
But, I sure wish it had Java and Flash.
Here's what it boils down to: no cruft, no crap.
So all this to say it doesn't matter what we think or feel about the iPhone's display capabilities, because we are not steering the ship. That would be Steve Jobs and Scoble can't get his prime time it would seem for an interview. The last time Scoble ran into Jobs with Dave Winer Jobs chastised him for stealing Apple stuff and putting it into IE.
All this to say that Scoble should repair his booboos with Apple and get an interview with Jobs and ask him himself.
Didn't you get the memo? Java is the property of Sun Microsystems, and has never been submitted to any independent standards body.
--
Duh. Google is a company of websites. That's just an online app customized for iPhone: exactly what Apple has told devs to make.
You get a bookmark and put it on the iPhone homescreen.
*waves banner
Mission Accomplished.
Next?
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A closed system might be more secure but it will also limit customer options? Isn’t the iPhone supposed to change the closed end cellular phone business model that limits innovation and choices for customers? I hope the upcoming iPhone SDK mirror some of the great benefits offered by languages like Java.
Matt, Are you kidding me? Don't you know who Steve Jobs is? The guy is a metaphor of greed and total lack of consideration for others. His only interest is to keep making more money and enjoying the applauses of the lobotomized devotees, for whom he has no respect, that gather at his keynotes!
His only ambition in life is to get consumers locked-in to spend more money for Apple products.
It is a sad thing for man kind and progress to have to suffer the ego of some very influential misguided leaders.
David
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