One area I don't see mentioned in this or any other article comparing Zune to IPod is that Zune is, for now, one product. IPod has three distinct versions. In my household, we have all 3 (shuffle - for my workouts, Nano - for my wife, full size - for my large music collection in the car). If I'm not mistaken, the Nano is the biggest IPod seller. If Microsoft is going to make a dent, it will be based upon quickly extending their product line to compete against the Nano too. And not just emulating it, they have to surpass it widely.
Also not mentioned so much is the experience of buying or copying music to the Zune. Will their version of ITunes be easy? Will it just work? Or will it be a drawn out process (see the comparison videos at 37 Signals for an example....
David Feldt
· 3 years ago
I agree with you, as the sound of your blog. I think it will take alot of effort to convert me to some other MP3 player than my IPod Nano 2GB than something else. Because i like the service and the amount of songs that are available on iTunes. Too simply put it, Microsoft won't get any "ipod" customers. Why? Because the ipod users are very satisfied with their selection of music, film and podcasts. And i still think ipods are more wanted than other different kind of mp3 players. At least here in Sweden or probably Scandinavia. It still would be cheaper than a Zune or other mp3 player in the same range.
Yours Sincerely
David Feldt
Bat Masterson
· 3 years ago
Obviously, nobody is going to take down the iPod in the near (or even foreseeable?) future.
This first version of Zune is a Toshiba Gigabeat + wifi + slicker UI (and the Gigabeat is using Portable Media Center 2.0 UI, which is already slick in its own right). I have an iPod, but I've regarded the Gigabeat as the best all-around portable digital player; that is, until the Zune. This first Zune's successors will be the ones that Apple might have to worry about (those will likely have the podcast support; and the aftermarket products will be more established (it's being established even as we speak)). As it is, all of the other players do have to be concerned with the Zune, even if Apple isn't.
Now, regarding the "kid's view". You're obviously rich, to have your kid trading $300 dollar gadgets with other kids without the first care in the world as to whether they get lost, stolen, broken, et. In my neighborhood, nobody "trades iPods". Those that have them guard them. They don't have the money to replace them if something goes awry in such trades. But Apple has always appealed to the rich, so maybe they do have a stronger hold in that segment of the populace.
And why would "white earphones" be a conversation starter? Not in my experience. If it is, what color are the earphones of the white Zune? If it's white, does that nullify that particular "advantage"? ;-)
I'm interested in build quality too. The increasing reports on message boards regarding people going to two or three iPods in 24 months is worrisome. If Zune has better build quality (and that'll be up to Toshiba), then that's a big advantage right there.
bl0rq
· 3 years ago
I do not think missing podcast support is that big of a deal, especially considering it will watch the folders and sync up properly. This will let you use a 3rd party rss/podcast sync to download the files into the proper folder. Its not "ideal" but i personally cant stand using iTunes, so for me, it falls under the "at least as good" category.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
Good analysis, but it really matters little in the long run, as Microsoft doesn't command that pop culture edge needed to take this bigtime. And it's just a beta test anyways, like the UMPC/Tablet/Smartphone/Pocket PC, better off waiting for version 2 or 3 or multiple firmware upgrades.
PS - Whatever happened to the PMCs? Wow...that's disappeared faster than anything. All the rage for Microsoft at CES, and gone in 60 seconds.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
PSS - Sorta come back with the UI, sooo Zune is PMC2 then?
Kurt Brockett
· 3 years ago
So here's why I think the Zune might make an OK go at it...everyone has an iPod. What was one of the biggest factors of picking up an iPod? The cool, hey look, that guy/girl has an iPod. That no longer works. But if Microsoft gets behind the Zune from a marketing standpoint people may pick it up just to be the cool kid on the block again.
anand
· 3 years ago
>>Does it work with a Macintosh? No.
Does it really matter?? WOuld you or 99% of the ipod crowd bought it if it was not compatible with a PC/windows -->>> NONONONONO.
I am sure the marketing guys at microsoft are intelligent enough to make it compatible if Mac continues to grow.And it will appeal even more to 85% of the office crowd using MSoffice in their work place where they have no permission to install itunes. Zune will be integrated in wmp. A HUGE advantage.
>>Kids point of view
Frankly its not the kids point of view. Its your point of view. He gets an ipod coz you allow that. Another parent having a PC might be more inclined to buy a zune seeing a microsoft logo there. And yes kids love gadgets that can integrate with xbox.
Read somewhere that microsoft is going to make its point system ubiquitous. You play games or share movies and you earn points. Use that to buy song. Now that is cool as well for gamers and Kids.
>>The Zune team didn’t show us the OOBE (Out Of Box Experience
Well you no longer work for microsoft. And even if you had, the zune team might have had some restrictions on leaking out the features. This is hardly a reason to worry about at this stage. Wait for some more time.
>>But, for now, I’d stick with an iPod.
You have too. Even if you wish there it is not for sale :)
>>The Zune has a wifi antenna. Can I use it to download music without hooking up to a computer? No.
Again it depends on the demand. If more ppl want that feature, it should be easy to implement. Sell a wifi reciever, update the software and it should work seemlessly.
>>Zune doesn’t have a microphone.
Nor does the ipod have. Atleast my shuffle has none (btw i got the shuffle free..otherwise i might have got something cheap that fits a students pocket).
>>Zune doesn’t have a podcast client. >>Zune doesn’t have a way to subscribe to Rocketboom or ZeFrank or any other videoblog.
Guess you are confused here. A podcast client and a way to subscribe are in no way RELATED TO ZUNE. ZUNE is the HARDWARE. These are SOFTWARE. All microsoft needs to do is a software update. And yes, they need not be in hurry as 99% of teh ppl using computers have not heard podcast (and/or) not used it yet like me!!
Rohit
· 3 years ago
I agree with the post. Right out of the box the Zune is no iPod killer. We all know it, Apple knows it and above all Microsoft knows it. Right out of the box 1G Zune is an entry point. It’s a basic device which tries to get the basic right.
However I think the some interesting features are going to come in as updates. After some time when a few thousands Zune are sold and all the minor glitches worked out, that’s when we will see the upgrades.
I don’t think the form factor of the G1 Zune has mush role at this stage. In case the form factor really becomes a problem MS can easily introduce a new Zune with different design. Over a period of time it will be worked out.
Sometimes I think the missing features in Zune can also be a sort of marketing strategy. Let the device go out with a couple of features missing and add it within a couple of days of release to garner attention. I am sure adding support for podcast will not be that difficult through an update.
As for voice recording I don’t expect this to be added. Nor games. They will like to stay with the music and introducing those at this stage takes away from the main message.
Finally all will hang upon the updates. That gives them a huge advantage. They can basically introduce any features which they think people are missing the most. In other words the product can evolve.
However I am wondering if anyone sees any features in Zune which are not there, but are present in iPod(except for podcast)?
Rohit PS : Maybe theory of 3G product with MS still holds....
Dileepa
· 3 years ago
In unrelated news, Scoble relates anything to anything else.
S3rgi0
· 3 years ago
I don't really think that podcasts are such a big thing for kids right now. I would say it's kind of lame to see a kid subscribing a podcast.
Probably what's going on here, is that podtech.net feels left behind by the lack of this feature on the Zune.
If podcasting was as cool as they say, that feature would have been there since the first version :)
$0.02
anand
· 3 years ago
again one last thing. There is no use scolding MS or Apple for DRM. The music companies dont want that. If MS or apple refuses to implement that, the music companies are going to stop selling cheap music. It is as simple as that.
anand
· 3 years ago
>>I don’t really think that podcasts are such a big >>thing for kids right now. I would say it’s kind of >>lame to see a kid subscribing a podcast.
Actually i know some kids listening to major nelsons podcast. IF there are gonna listen to some podcast from SUN ceo or google or MS programmers, there is some big problem.. This is not the age to worry to much about technology. Rather play and have fun
madhu
· 3 years ago
one huge thing, i wonder why microsoft lost it.. i mean windows media player, common should that sync instead of the zune marketplace.. thats pretty lame. wifi thats pretty lame.. if i cant use it so stream or sync music with... whats the point then... i am not gonna share songs with some one alone... maybe its true.. we wait for version 3.
Michiel
· 3 years ago
I'm pretty sure 'Updateability' is not actually a word.
I also fail to see why you think having or wanting to update your music player often is a good thing. And for the tweaking-inclined ipod owners there are replacement firmware/OS solutions0 like Rockbox: http://www.rockbox.org/
In fact, I bet they will be running on the Zune in no time, and hackers (in the good sense of the word. Stupid media) like them might open the Zune's rather crippled wifi to its full potential. Because this p2p 3xplay stuff is really rather lame.
I'm still getting massive use out of my 40 Gb non-video non-colour screen ipod that I bought some 2-odd years ago. To be fair, I did replace the battery recently with a fresh heavy-duty one. If it were to break down right now, I'd probably buy another ipod; I'd have a hard time choosing between the rather sleek and light 8 Gb nano or the fat 80 Gb ipod for the packrat in me.
T Man
· 3 years ago
You make some good points. But let's look at these that I think are a little glaring:
"But let’s look deeper. The Zune has a wifi antenna. Can I use it to download music without hooking up to a computer? No."
I agree, that would make that killer feature much more "killer". How about throwing a browser on the Zune too? Then work with Verizon and get a MP3/phone combo that Apple is possibly working on.
"Does it work with a Macintosh? No."
Not really a deal breaker at this point. You are going to have a hard time convincing any self respecting Mac user to give up their Steve Jobs goodness. So why even try in that market out of the gate? And MS really only cares about numbers. 3% doesn't amount to much.
"Does it free me from DRM? No."
Neither does the iPod, so I don't see why this is even mentioned. I hate DRM myself, but no player is going to free us from DRM. Only the big, bag record labels can.
"Can I use my iPod music on it that I’ve purchased on iTunes? No."
You know better. Since the iPod is an "accepted" closed system, everyone thinks that this is an advantage. But the iTunes purchased music is all DRM'ed, so I couldn't imagine this any other way. And with a big player like MS entering the market, any chance of Apple opening up their DRM to competitors is now nil.
"Can I record off of the FM tuner? No."
Agreed. Hopefully this will be one of the upgraded features. Given their experience with MCE, I would imagine we will see it at sometime.
MARKETING
The marketing I have seen has been pretty good, and is innovative in a viral sort of way. Remember something about the iPod marketing. Apple wants us all to "think different", however, how are we all thinking different when we all have the same device? I think that in the teen/college aged sector, there are still plenty of people out there that are anit-cool, whereas they don't like those things that everyone else thinks are cool. If MS taps in to this marketing niche, I think they can find some success in the market.
In any case, MS has already stated that they are in this for the long haul, and don't expect (and shouldn't) to win it overnight. Strong second is what they hope for, and with an expanded product line, downloadable features, and what I am going to assume some sort of hackability, they should be able to do it.
paul
· 3 years ago
Wi-Fi on such a small device is a killer feature and we will be sync'n with our PC's for content.
David
· 3 years ago
> Remember 1989? I thought the Macintosh was superior > to Windows. Which one ended up with more market > share? The ones that the developers could extend > the easiest.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Microsoft wound up with marketshare to competition (hardware) and a lack of competition (operating system) caused by Microsoft's manipulative processes.
Because there were lots of PC compatible box manufacturers all making the same product they competed on price driving costs down. To Apple's view, there was no competition and therefore no need to keep price down. Apple guessed wrong and people chose low cost computers over high priced computers.
But that doesn't mean buyers chose Windows - that's just what came installed on the box they bought. Lots of us formatted the drive and installed the OS we really wanted. This double charge for an OS eventually gave Microsoft the upper hand and their competitors were driven out of the market.
But don't make the mistake of thinking we chose Windows or that the PC platform won because it was superior. If superiority were the issue we'd all be using systems based on IBM's PS/2 computers.
Russ Henry
· 3 years ago
Size and functionality will keep zune from zooming.
I have a shuffle that made it through the hot water wash and the very hot regular dry cycle inside my cargo pants. I would be far too afraid to re-create the same scenario for the Nano or Zune. I like many others have the shuffle for hard use and the Nano, iPod’s are reserved for cool town casual stuff.
I believe the Zune will become your “Fathers Oldsmobile”. Pre-loaded with Lasik commercials. The smaller screen on the Nano is somewhat of a litmus test, don’t trust anyone over 40 deal. Check this out on my Nano ... hang on I have to get my reading glasses.
Multiply the error times 10 and see if the size has a big impact. The same logic applies to all error analysis.
Bigger was bad-er. I; would also stick to the iPod.
devils_advocate
· 3 years ago
If you did a feature based comparison like this one on Youtube Vs Google video which will come on top?
Even if YT wins it will be by a very small margin. But the market trend didnt quite obey that.
If feature based scientific comparison was the way to predict markets and trends we wouldnt have failed products
kw198025
· 3 years ago
But let’s look deeper. The Zune has a wifi antenna. Can I use it to download music without hooking up to a computer? No.
This REALLY would be an advantage, imagine being able to get music anywhere, I am sure microsoft could quite easily implement some kind of browser technology to enable end users to be able to do this, lets face it there are web browsers compact enough to run on a pocket pc or a mobile phone, if you were able to download via WI-FI with no PC needed I would probably not think twice about getting one of these. **************************** It is a shame to see that this is yet another device that does not free the user from DRM, however if people would only purchase their stuff legally then maybe there would be no need for DRM in the first place. **************************** Updateability: better than iPod (if I were Apple I’d worry about this). I Agree 110% this has to be a distinct advantage for Microsoft. ***************************** Shame that it does not work with a mac, though I would have to say this does not cause any problems for me as I use my mac only for design work and photo editing and my PC for everything else, but I can kind of appreciate the need for cross platform support.
Ron
· 3 years ago
Robert, I like your review. I have been using the Yahoo music subscription service for the past couple of years and thought about switching to Zune, but in the end decided to just order a new Creative Zen Vision:M for $200 and stick with Yahoo for now. Yahoo Music is a bit cheaper solution for a subscription music solution and works with a couple of other older devices I already own. I think the second generation Zune will be worth a look in 18 months or so.
Like you said market share changes in music playing/purchasing platforms will likely depend on youthful customers - Microsoft faces an uphill struggle due to Apple's marketing genius and reasonably decent hardware and software engineering.
Sina
· 3 years ago
I'll be buying a Zune because of the subscription music. I've been using Yahoo music for a while now, and I love it. It's really amazing to have access to so much music, and I really think its a "killer" feature. But the user experience with the current "playforsure" services is terrible. The software (e.g. Yahoo music engine) is slow, the music transfers are unreliable, and the hardware is a mess. Every player seems to be unreasonably slow when playing the DRM'd tracks, and none provide a good user experience. But Zune can fix all that.
Also, I don't think podcast support is quite so important - if anything, video is the cool hip thing at the moment (hence youtube's success). Of all the people I know who have ipods, only a very small percentage listen to podcasts. And Microsoft can easily fix the issue in future firmware versions.
JimmyLee
· 3 years ago
MS has been famous for releasing faulty software and devices… so updateability is a must! At the end, there will be over 3 versions of this Zune device…. and I’m sure ipod will release some version of the ipod with wifi connectivity if the time becomes that you download music directly to your zune … that is not too hard to implement… I may say this antenna for ipod may be plugable and sold like any other ipod plug in.
Besides… as usual, some crazy guy with nothing important to do will figure out a way to install a linux kernel on the Zune…
This is so typical that honestly I don’t feel any excitement about the launch of this player.
MK
· 3 years ago
The Zune product team is run by J.Allard. This man is very close to to destroying Sony's Playstation. Zune is round 1 of at least 12. I know who I'm putting my money on.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Before responding to Scobie, I have to respond to this:
"This man is very close to to destroying Sony’s Playstation."
Ha, ha, ha!!! Sony can screw itself and sit on its ass and the PS2 still outsells both the XBox and the XBox 360 combined currently. The XBox 360 is selling SLOWER than the first XBox. Destroying Sony indeed.
devils_advocate
· 3 years ago
Goebbels - any stats to back your claim?
James Clarke
· 3 years ago
For me, the lack of the ability to sync down audio or video netcasts/podcasts over wifi is a real missed opportunity. Granted, they will probably do this as a software update but that would be the killer feature to have at launch, particularly as broadcasters such as the BBC are offering radio and TV shows this way so you can mix UGC with traditional broadcast stuff. Since I will never buy or download protected content, the whole Zune store thing isn't very interesting, neither is the sharing (the 3x3 thing kills that for me). Plus, my new T-Mobile Dash phone is so sexy I'm wondering if I really need a separate device at all.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
I know who I’m putting my money on.
Well, you will have to put that money on, once, twice, thrice, again, again and again, never-ending really. The Microsoft Beta Test Ecosystem Defense Fund. And Sony, even given it's trainwreck-level massive problems, still has a worldwide PS3 footprint marketshare that will vault them to the top, in terms of raw numbers. In fact, they already outsell Xbox and Xbox 360 combined, that with a 6 year old VGS.
If you started, and bet on Win CE/Pocket PC from the get-go, you would have had to buy 6 devices, sometimes much more depending on the OEM you chose, per various firmware and chipset upgrade issues.
Expect the Early Adopters, the MVP and other freebie entitlement Webmasters and other Microsoft Mobius-leeches like that, to go bonkers. Everyone else, wait 2-3 years before you even start to pay attention.
Chris G.
· 3 years ago
I don't get how upgradability is a major advantage over the iPod?
Apple has released iPod firmware updates for years. And since iTunes 7 has been released, everyone will be alerted of updates and be told to install them.
Example of updates to Apple firmware: addition of AAC support when the music store was introduced, addition of podcast support, Nike+iPod support, etc.
If Apple ever feels the need to match a software feature on the Zune, it will take a simple firmware update.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Part 1
"Box design: good. As good as iPod."
This isn't very "Fundamental" or important to the success of the product. Just doing better than the horrible job MS usually does does not provide any advantage. It's nice to see, but rather insignificant. More important will be how it is displayed: Apple has its own stores and millions of users allowing anyone to sample an iPod. Microsoft will be behind a glass case in a box in WalMart.
"Look and feel and overall hardware quality: good. As good as iPod. I actually even liked the brown one a lot."
But you are missing size. On this type of device, the slightest difference is immensely noticeable. You can see this within the iPod community between generations. I know people who upgraded, not because of features, but because of size. Zune has a HUGE disadvantage here.
"Screen: better than iPod."
Debatable. Not much bigger, lower quality. And we only have one point of comparison. Apple has 3 devices: one with no screen, one with a small screen, one with an average screen. It is now the appropriate time to buy into rumors and expect a much larger and better screen than the Zune in the next 3 months, if not before the holiday.
"Hard drive size: worse than iPod."
Yes.
"Features: mixed bag, we’ll get into that below."
Yes, below.
"Price: in the right neighborhood."
But probably costly to MS without the proper scale at this time.
"Marketing: unknown, but Apple has set such a high bar that I doubt Microsoft can even get close."
True, but the "viral" campaigns have been pathetic and scattered. There does not appear to be a strong, focused marketing message. Will wait...
"Software experience: unknown."
Agreed. Why didn't you push any buttons on this? This is MS's "integrated" experience and the best we have is a screenshot of the library. That's it. If the software is so cool, so community focused, why has MS been unwilling to prime the hype pumps on this aspect?
"Updateability: better than iPod (if I were Apple I’d worry about this)."
Woah, woah, woah!!! This is absurd! Because Zune doesn't have the many, many features people expect and they say, "Well, we could add that in the future", you say it has better upgradability? Absurd! Apple Macs had been far ahead of PCs in terms of upgradable firmware, and the iPod has always had upgradable firmware. The rest of the market has upgradable firmware. You haven't seen the software, Zune hasn't been released (nevermind refreshed)... You can't claim it's more upgradable! The device will have its limitations as all hardware is by definition constrained in its software upgradability.
Maybe it can be said that Apple has a preference to not work on upgrading older models to drive adoption of new generations, but it can't be claimed that the Zune is more upgradable.
Hell, we've recently seen how even "renegade" companies like Archos have released "upgrades" which limit features. For all we know, Microsoft will have to impair its WiFi because of studio pressure. We can't just give them a star for claiming they may or may not add features in the future because they don't have them now and because they've discovered this thing that's existed for years called "upgradable firmware." Sorry, Scobie, but you are just sucking on the old teet on this one.
"Conversationality: (Does it cause a conversation). Here Apple wins with the white headphones hands down."
Apple wins here, hands down, agreed. But not because of white headphones. They win here because they have a clear, focused vision which is reflected in their products, advertising, strategy, etc...
"Integration: beats the iPod cause it works with Xbox."
What? Because it can stream (when connected by a wire) to a device owned by less than 20 million people it has an advantage in integration? What about 70% of US cars having iPod docks, what about 3000+ accessories, what about connecting any mp3 player to any home entertainment component. Sorry, ZERO advantage Microsoft.
Fundamentals you ignore:
Strategy confusion, abandonment: what about PFS devices and stores?
Media experience or music experience: Zune is primarily focused on music. What is, where is MS's strategy on TV, films, other video, podcasts, games, and personal information like notes, contacts, calendars? MS has had PMCs, Smartphones, the XBox, etc... for years, yet they ignored these other personal media experiences in the Zune. Why?
A Family of Products: How do you get WiFi in a Nano? How do you tout that bigger screen in a shuffle-like device? How do you hit every price point selling a rebranded third-party product with very low volumes?
The full ecosystem: MS can catch up here, but their strategy seems to be give the higher margins to the retailers but put the risk on them (inventories, advertising, etc...). Apple may not be every retailers friend, but the advertising happens on its own without work, and even if margins are lower, the inventories fly off the shelf. Likewise, MS's strategy seems to be to provide many of these accessories themselves. Apple does so as well, but not as broadly -- kitschier products, smaller niche products, higher end items. How does MS get the ecosystem if they are providing most of the accessories themselves? How does MS attract the truly significant partners like Nike when they will have a much, much smaller share of the market?
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
devil's advocate, yes, I do. Since it's a self-evident and well-known fact, you can use this thing called the web and Google to find out for yourself. I see know reason to try to teach you something.
jonas
· 3 years ago
I think the iPod will win this and probably the next round mainly because of one thing: brand awarenes.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Before moving on to Part 2, I realized I skipped a piece of my integration argument... So I'll provide a prediction. I bet you that by the end of 2007, Apple has sold more "iTVs" than MS has sold XBoxes. (Maybe that's too bold, but I bet the number is close... Say between 8 and 15 million.)
So... Not only does the iPod have 3000+ accessories, docks on 70% of all new cars, integration with both the Mac and PC platform (can I "integrate" Zune with a Mac?), but they will also have the same home integration at a higher level of functionality and probably greater ease of use with (the same or nearly) as many users.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Part 2
The Edge Case.
Firstly, I agree the Zune presents no compelling features for the geek.
Secondly, are you really continuing to argue that subs are the killer feature after 4 years of hype and zero success? Sad. Subs do not even register as a blip. You may buy into renting music for your entire life, but most edge cases either want to own or are willing to indulge in piracy.
Thirdly, who cares? Geeks may be a source of early penetration, but we are FIVE YEARS into the development of this market. The iPod is for edge cases, the mainstream, and those who weren't even big music consumers but are newly discovering they enjoy the personal device. The edge case might have been significant 5 years ago. Now, the edge is simply those geeks who want to hack the "OS" and who want support for a dozen barely used OSS content formats. Zune will never provide these "edge case" features, and the edge doesn't represent a significantly large enough market segment to matter.
El Duque
· 3 years ago
This is a very biased and one-sided comparison.
So Robert, does the IPOD free you from DRM? NO!
In fact, the ONLY reason the Zune can't play iTunes music is because of APPLE DRM!!!
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
devils_advocate
· 3 years ago
Goebbels - thanks for the pointers. I am still not sure what 'web' is. You see, i am writing this message on a clay tablet and my genie would put that on this thing called 'blog'.
I see you are a wise man. Great predictions on iTV.
You should be very wise. You are able to write a big comparison story without having seen/used the device. ( remote possibility - you have seen it - Still thats not the one out of the box)
Aren't you going to predict 99% market share for macs also? I am tired of all market predictors. You can look up a couple of pictures/use some thing for 10 minutes and go on on how the market and the mass will react to things. Why dont you tell me that you knew GOOG would hit 485 today and YT will be bought for 1.65 billion...
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Part 3: The Kids' View
Not much to argue here, but I'm much, much less enamored with the "coolness" argument. The iPod is cool because it is cool. It is a trendsetter, and Apple appears to have the vision to keep executing, keeping the iPod ahead of the pack. The "Fundamental" section of your comments shows that the Zune is not cool, nevermind cooler.
However, your point about sharing deserves comment. The iPod has always been a great sharing device: use headphone splitters, share the headphones, swap iPods, connect your iPod to a friend's computer or stereo or iPod dock, stash one of many small apps on your iPod so you can pull tunes off the iPod to share. Lend your iPod to someone for a day or two or longer. All of these modes of sharing trump MS's marketing speak about "social experiences" when thaty social experience is confined to a highly limited one-directional "sharing" aimed at adding some revenue to MS's coffers. This sharing on the iPod (and largely available to any DAP but less so because of smaller marketshare and less of an ecosystem) is more human and interactive and real than Ballmer's "squirting" with limited playback.
And I'd surmise that only 3% of portable players ever have podcasts transfered to them at all.
This is not a big deal. And as was stated above, you can probably use a 3rd party podcast subscriber and just sync with the folders that that 3rd party app uses.
Dare is in the process of adding podcast support to RSS Bandit as we speak. ;-)
IE7's RSS functionality already supports automatically downloading multimedia attachments within RSS feeds (i.e. podcasts), so one can simply sync with the folders that IE downloads those to as well.
Not a big deal, IMO.
engtech
· 3 years ago
Nothing to add, I just wanted to say kudos to a really good comparison.
Bat Masterson
· 3 years ago
Another thing - Regarding lack of Mac support: This is not an issue. You know why? 99.99999% of Mac users will NOT choose a product against which Apple competes. They will choose the product that Jobs tells them to, end of story. That's why there's virtually zero (or only half-hearted at best) support for the Mac by other portable player makers. They know that Apple has that market locked up to themselves. The Windows market is much more competitive.
Bat Masterson
· 3 years ago
Goebbels, what makes you think that Zune can't do the sharing that you cite for iPod? Zune does have headphone splitters, you can share Zunes, you can plug them into a friend's computer, etc.
Alfredo Octavio
· 3 years ago
Good article. Got a question though. The iPod works with an Xbox 360. You connect to it and you can play the (non DRM crippled) songs on it. Does the Zune does anything else? Can you buy songs from the Zune Marketplace with an Xbox 360? Can you use the Zune only with an Xbox 360 (no windows required)?
Custa
· 3 years ago
You are making a lot of asumptions of what Apple's software capability is and what they have up their sleeve Robert. Are you sre the excitement of getting some hands on time with the Zune team is not clouding your judgement that while the Zune is not released yet, but you know what's coming with it that you have forgotten that Apple is probably working on their next big thing which can occur at any time with no pre-warning?
Patrick Scoble
· 3 years ago
Yah Dad, we don't trade iPods we go to each others houses and steals their music ;)
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
"This is not an issue. You know why? 99.99999% of Mac users will NOT choose a product against which Apple competes. They will choose the product that Jobs tells them to, end of story."
This is such a silly myth. 90% of Mac users use both systems because the work environment forces them to. Most Mac users will consider any worthwhile product.
And I'm not making a point about trying to attract that marketshare (although the Mac marketshare is greater than the XBox marketshare in pure numbers), but that it is not a more integratable device... in which case, it is relevant that the Zune can only connect to the XBox.
"Goebbels, what makes you think that Zune can’t do the sharing that you cite for iPod? Zune does have headphone splitters, you can share Zunes, you can plug them into a friend’s computer, etc."
Did you miss the part where I said: "This sharing on the iPod (and largely available to any DAP but less so because of smaller marketshare and less of an ecosystem) is more human and interactive and real than Ballmer’s “squirting” with limited playback."? The point is: the extremely limited WiFi sharing doesn't enable or improve sharing in any meaningful way. It is essentially the sole differentiator, yet it is not a true differentiator.
anand
· 3 years ago
>>Yah Dad, we don’t trade iPods we go to each others >>houses and steals their music
scoble gets owned for over exagerration of stuff.
Mark Alexander
· 3 years ago
Robert, On Screen: The screen on the Zune and video iPod is the same resolution. The screen size is larger on the Zune, which actually makes the image easier to see, but the image quality will look worse.
On box: The box as pictured for the Zune is quite poor. It only has a Zune logo and name. No image or description. (I realize that MS tends to over do it with description, but no description at all is going too far the other way) The current iPod package is now a clear box. It is very easy to see what you get with iPod. Zune box will only appeal to people who already know that they want a Zune.
On subscriptions: So far the bulk of the Music services, except iTunes, already offer subscriptions. To date that has not been a significant feature requirement based on current subscription levels. Maybe MS will get Zune/Subscriptions right, but that is unclear at this time.
On updates: iPod/iTunes does and has done many updates, some are bug fixes, some add new features. Prior to iTunes 7, iPod updater was a standalone program, but in iTunes 7 it is now integrated directly in iTunes. iTunes updates now part of Apple Software update on both Mac & Windows.
Thats enough for now. Mark
Patrick D. Gaul
· 3 years ago
I have a 60 GB iPod, a 4 GB Nano and a 1 GB shuffle. I recently ordered the new shuffle. My wife has a 4 GB Nano and both kids have 4 GB Mini's. I have over 30,000 songs loaded into iTunes and use two 200 GB Seagate External Storage Devices for back-up. In my neighborhood, I'm not the exception. Apple's advantage is what Seth Godin always raves about; i.e.: being first has some serious advantages. In this case it is the level of penetration that they have achieved and the level of complexity they have created relative to change. It's the same reason I don't buy software from Apple....yea, you know it. I'm a MS fan all the way when it comes to running my business and my home computing.
winmac
· 3 years ago
Good interview Robert, the Microsoftie is young and looked Nervous, but otherwise I like what I see with the Zune, will this hurt Apple, not on your life, to much mind share and market share. But then again Microsoft doesn't expect to make a dent against the iPod at first and this is a gen 1 product, I believe Microsft is thinking five years to establish itself in this market.
I wouldnt mind dumping my ipod, the big question here is can the software match the ease of use of iTunes,WMP 11 is pretty robust and seems faster than even iTunes 7, not surprising concidering how buggy iTunes 7 is, but I need the ease of use and WMP 11 seems to be right there .
I guess I'll wait and see.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Part 4
The User's Point of View
Here is one area where MS could have an advantage: they are essentially copying word-for-word from a playbook that has been wide open for 5 years.
Also, I expect that the software will include more social features and other extras. MS will, from a place of weakness, do whatever they can to add value.
However, this is where the change in strategy will hurt them. Users will expect PlaysForSure to be a part of the experience; there is no reason for it not to be. They will expect the "openness" that is at the core of Microsoft's standard strategies. It is not clear if MS knows how to do a vertical solution, nevermind if they can satisfactorily get people to accept their strategy hypocrisy.
Additionally, this will help Apple. All of the complaints surrounding the iPod (DRM lock-in, simplicity, battery issues) will be equally present in Zune. This will leave the iPod-haters with less of an argument against Apple's few unique "problems."
The Ecosystem
As mentioned previously, the XBox or Media Center are inconsequential in comparison to the iPod's car market and other devices and the future potential of the "iTV."
"And, the Zune has a better software updater. I’m already hearing that within a few days of release in mid-November that there will already be some new features released."
Also mentioned previously, this is nonsense. Holding back a few features for a couple of weeks after launch isn't promising. It's a gimmick to make it appear as if it will be frequently updated. Everything I've heard, seen, and read from anyone involved with Zune claims they've done massive R&D and yet at the same time they claim they don't know what users want, what will be possible, etc... This is simply silly. In fact, we've already seen large steps BACK from what was originally announced: no DJ feature, for example, only per song 3 play-3 day sharing with an individual at a time.
"If Microsoft can upgrade all of its Zune players easily with new features and games and such, then they can build experiences that the iPod can’t easily get..."
Woah, woah, woah!! The Product Manager told you they have no plans for games and have no interaction at all with the XBox team and you are already presuming they are getting games? Absurd. And why can't the iPod easily get the same thing? In fact, the iPod has already gotten many of these things via updates.
"(and if third-party developers can play there, watch out."
Woah! Microsoft has already locked out of its device its existing partners, its WMP team, and its XBox team, and they are proudly proclaiming this is a closed, vertical system to provide simplicity and ease-of-use, and you are granting them 3rd party developers when already the iPod has iPod Linux and a vast community of hacks and apps, numerous apps to interact with the iPod, simple apps using its notes and other features, game development, exclusive and innovative apps via partnerships with Nike, and you are giving the advantage to the Zune? More silliness.
"Remember 1989? I thought the Macintosh was superior to Windows. Which one ended up with more market share? The ones that the developers could extend the easiest."
Why should I care about your misguided views and poor predictions? Yes, you've shown a track record of being wrong over and over.
Conclusion
"It’s that last point that could turn into a killer feature. If software developers are enabled to build new experiences for the Zune, then we could see something killer come along that’ll get more people interested in the Zune."
And from what we've explicitly have been told by numerous Zune sources and Ballmer and other MS execs is that we should not expect this at all.
Also, in the case of consumer electronics, it is the content, not the developers as it is in the PC world. Apple has a music catalog of 3.5 million; Zune 2 million. Apple has over 200 TV shows, over 40 movies, a broad podcast directory, thousands of music videos, and will continue to expand this more rapidly in more countries quicker than MS can come close to.
Bruce Curley
· 3 years ago
Robert,
With your review and more especially the comments to your review, you just performed tens of thousands worth of free marketing research for both MicroSoft and Apple. The technical, business, marketing, sales, and projection data and strategic expertise here is worthy of Knowledge Wharton. Who exploits it faster may answer your original questions, analysis and conclusion.
James
· 3 years ago
Robert, You're dead wrong about updatability...iTunes 7 has excellent support in iTunes itself for applying firmware upgrades to your iPod.
Russ Henry
· 3 years ago
I am sure Apple R&D reads your posts. If not, shame on them.
Eric Rice
· 3 years ago
I have a sneaky suspicion in my gut that it won't be someone making a music device that will win this battle. We're looking too narrow at the player-only feature first.
A hunch, is all.
Jamie Wright
· 3 years ago
Great post! Here is a link to a post that I wrote several weeks ago that share the sameideas that Scoble wrote about (http://www.wrightin.gs/2006/09/zune_is_so_fing.... biggest problem is that Microsoft is banking on this social sharing idea. Problem is that a lot of people have to own a Zune in order to share.I don't see that happening. Especially with a 1.0 product.
Solo
· 3 years ago
Here is the code Zune must live by:
The supreme law of the Bizarros' home planet Htrae, as transcribed below:
BIZARRO CODE:
1. US DO OPPOSITE OF ALL EARTHLY THINGS!
2. US HATE BEAUTY! US LOVE UGLINESS!
3. IS BIG CRIME TO MAKE ANYTHING PERFECT ON BIZARRO WORLD!"
late to... GUI OS - now dominates word processor - now dominates internet browser - now dominates server OS - now dominates pda software - now dominates video games - now dominates
their next targets... digital music search technology
are you ready to count them out before the zune is even released?
hint...the xbox 360 is killing ps3. microsoft is already working on the third generation xbox.
and I ask you again, are you ready to count them out before the zune is even released?
shoo
· 3 years ago
Mr. Scoble,
The downfalls of Zune? I think every time Matt stumbled or diverted on a question - there was your down fall.
How come you can't share video?!? Possible answer is that Soap Box will fit into that equation. BS, that users were just looking to share music. Heard of YouTube?
I like the features, but as you made note, maybe 3.0.
Podesta
· 3 years ago
I think this the most telling of Robert's remarks is his claim that Zune offering subscriptions is somehow original and a 'killer feature.' Has he been asleep for the last five years or something? The subscription services, combined, have less than 20 percent of the digital content market.
Bat Masterson is a master of cluelessness, but this really takes the cake:
"Regarding lack of Mac support:
This is not an issue. You know why? 99.99999% of Mac users will NOT choose a product against which Apple competes. They will choose the product that Jobs tells them to, end of story. That’s why there’s virtually zero (or only half-hearted at best) support for the Mac by other portable player makers. They know that Apple has that market locked up to themselves. The Windows market is much more competitive."
The Windows market belongs to Apple as much as the Mac market does when it comes to digital content and MP3 players.
(And, btw, Mac computer market share is above six percent now according to market analysts, not the three percent you make a habit of saying. That's just the kind of foolishness I expect from someone who doesn't know the XBox is a loss leader.)
Microsoft fanboy apologia notwithstanding, the Zune will be an also ran for the foreseeable future. (Assuming, of course, that M$ doesn't pull the plug altogether.)
Isaiah Watkins
· 3 years ago
I think the point that Scoble has missed is that there is a LARGE market that Apple has not peretrated yet. The facts are that only 10% of homes(US) even own ONE PMP!!!! They arent trying to convert people who have 30,000 songs in iTunes or have multiple iPods in thier home. Microsoft wants the rest of the world that hasnt bought into iPod and if they can get 30-40% market share they are making MO'MONEY MO' MONEY MO' MONEY.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
Only 2 profitable hits, been OS and Office, for all that "domination" nothing else has ever much paid off.
Here's the ADD-ON to your list. :)
late to...
Phones - Joke of a joke. Getting Symbian slaughtered. And as phones become more PDAish, even strict PDA domination will fade. Tablet/Pen/UMPC tech - No one paying attention, all mostly wasted. Web TV, Ultimate TV, MSN TV, Cable TV Ventures - Billions upon billions lost, but still puffing on that pipe with IPTV. Web Servers - Apache deathtrap. PDF copycats and eBook tech - DOA. Graphics software - Ain't no Adobe. Digital ID Tech - Passport? What's that? Finance software - Microsoft Money, hahaha, do be serious. Xbox/Xbox 360 - Both outsold by PS2, still BILLIONS! in the hole. SPOT watches - Oh dear me. OS - MSX and MSX-II. Grand Unified Vision, not. Tech Toys - Microsoft Actimates...oh oh. Web Conferencing Software - Dead already. Content - MSNBC iffy, Slate, Sidewalk toasted, as countless other content partnerships. MSN Media Network the latest poke. Rathole. Home Tech - Microsoft at Home (MAH)/Microsoft at Work (MAW) / BOB trainwrecks. Hardware - Abandonware WiFi. Mouse and some halfway dominate still.
And more...and much more to come. I predict the Halo movie will be a Bonfire-like disaster.
webomatica
· 3 years ago
I'm already hooked on Mac stuff so it would take something really awesome from the Zune to make me "switch". I have an iPod video and it's like another appendage. I'm totally embedded in iTunes and the way it manages music and podcasts, and now videos.
The only thing that was intriguing to me about Zune was the wireless. At the minimum it should have allowed syncing with a PC to copy files. The sharing thing is interesting but not cool enough, since you need more than one Zune for it to have any point.
We'll see but I'm predicting this is a loss leader and a doorstop to buy time for MSFT to come out with a better version 2 or 3.
shannonclark
· 3 years ago
A few other people have noted this but I would like to add to those who point out that Apple has been adding features to iPods via updates. Even my lowly 512mb shuffle has effectively been updated over time with some of the specific features that were missing when I first bought it (iTunes noting play times for items I played on the shuffle - and now it also tracks skipped songs).
Also re the podcast comment - my shuffle is almost entirely filled with podcasts. My daily routine is to run my podcatcher in the morning (Doppler Radio, still searching for anything as good for the mac) and then sync my shuffle (which is usually already connected and recharging overnight). I sync against a smart playlist of unplayed songs - so typically I fill my shuffle with 10-12hrs of podcasts - more than sufficient for my listening needs most days.
With the rare exception, I only use my shuffle to listen to podcasts - and though I may be an exception - I suspect I'm not the only person. For me the shuffle has a great set of features - small, nearly indestructible, lightweight. I am tempted however to get one of the new shuffles - which are even smaller and the clip looks pretty useful as well (I usually use the lanyard currently).
I may also get a nano or bigger iPod in part due to the cross platform compatibility (I have an iMac and a Thinkpad)
Brett Nordquist
· 3 years ago
>>Which one ended up with more market share? The ones that the developers could extend the easiest.
Nice job. This is what I've been saying but have been a bit more blunt. Just like the original Xbox was hackable, if the Zune is as hackable (such as being able to turn on Wifi to connect to network or there's a way to trade songs with no limitations, etc) then maybe it has a chance with the edge group. That same group that bought mod chips in order to turn the Xbox into a media center that played nearly everything.
But the Zune won't reach a mass audience like the iPod has. Women won't buy it. How many women do you see carrying around a the feature-rich iRiver players? It's not stylish and nothing from Microsoft will become as cool as anything from Apple. J. Allard and the Xbox team couldn't pull it off this time around.
MJ
· 3 years ago
"several people have told me they didn’t like the round control surface on the Zune because they were used to the iPod wheel and the Zune didn’t work the same way. Once you get used to it, the Zune is just fine (and offers a couple of advantages"
How do you know it's just fine when you get used to it? It's not just the controller hardware but the software also which you admittedly claim as:
"Software experience: unknown."
There's no substance here Robert. And claiming it's better at integration because it works with Media Centre and XBox? iPod works with Macs, PCs, Linux machines, cars, stereos...
Zune doesn't work with anything other than Microsoft platforms. And not taking podcasts into account? It's a stinker, Robert. An absolute stinker.
With WiFi, you'd think that it would be perfect to stay up to date by the second with your RSS feeds (better screen too) and podcasts. An opportunity to be completely connected in a device designed for consumption rather than communication. But the WiFi is totally wasted and used solely as a marketing tool to allow the labels to sell more music. And what's the chance that some enterprising scumbag will hack the WiFi and use it to share the first Zune viruses....
Zune is, by design, the ultimate antithesis of the iPod. Restrictive where iPod is accepting, open in areas that iPod would not go because those areas are not pro-consumer. Apple says "Don't Steal Music". Microsoft says "Buy Music Now".
Zune causes conversations and that's great. But they're all talking about how badly this device will fare. But shops will sell out anyway due to a stranglehold on the number of units released to shops. It's a bundle of marketing floss.
Yada
· 3 years ago
I hate booth!
Vivek
· 3 years ago
Scoble
It is increasingly becoming obvious that you are moving away from your role of a "reporter" to that of an arm-chair critic and the laundry list of know-it-all-comments that decorate your blog only perpetuates that belief of mine.
My 2 cents -
Corporates today only indulge you for historical reasons; they dont regard you as a credible source of input or information(except maybe for blogging and related matters)
Start reporting; Stop Opining. Opine on those things that you understand and are proficient at - corporate blogging, social networks, podcasts and so on.
Stick to the facts when reporting all else; else you sound hopefully inadequate and out of your depth.
Here's my take -
It really doesnt matter what 90% of 2% of a market owns or thinks of. The mp3 media market is largely untapped and there is going to be plenty of room for everybody without having to push and shove.
Please dont take my word for it - visit a country like India and you will understand what the drivers are. (after all this is the biggest retail opportunity outside of China isnt it?)
Buying an Ipod every 3 months is not it. Nor is having to break open a device to change batteries.
Vivek
· 3 years ago
Sorry - read that as "Hopelessly Inadequate". My bad.
Chrono Cr@cker
· 3 years ago
Nice Post Scoble, though I would like to know if there is a price differnece between teh Zune and the pod, perhaps that would enable me to buy it!
Dave
· 3 years ago
Good post Robert. A few thoughts....
(1) Your comments about iPod updating isn't very accurate. From the updating itself all the way through thinking it could be a killer feature.
(2) The fact the Zune doesn't work on a Mac brings to mind that at the beginnning the iPod didn't work on Windows. In fact, the tipping point for the iPod was when the iTunes Windows client was released.
(3) I agree, Zune has no compelling features today. It is a single model with one or two - easily copied - features to differentiate it from an iPod. To me THIS is the major point to remember. Just as Microsoft can easily add podcast support to the Zune, Apple can add subscriptions.
(4) So they really ARE going to call it "Zune"? Sigh. At least it's a step in the right direction - much better than the 7 versions of Vista... each with enough syllables to insure it can never roll off the tongue.
But what exactly IS a zune? Zune? Or is it zUne? I mean, the original iPod was pretty much that - an easily removable peripheral that seamlessly integrated with a piece of software that downloaded music over the internet.
Russ Henry
· 3 years ago
I can check my e-mail at Star Bucks with a Zune. Can you do that with an iPod? Just a thought; an old rumor I just started.
Drive the innovation. Don't PM about the technology.
This is the forum to voice all of your wouldn't it be nice features for the teams that may or may not be listening. PM = "piss & Moan" Be part of the solution. WHAT DO YOU THINK ?
Besides Robert said he would give his take on the technology after we told him our opinions. That's not armchairing, that's a wise blog guru.
Phill:J
· 3 years ago
am I the only person in the western world without an iPod ?
danasatriya
· 3 years ago
go iPOD!!!!! :D
Ryan
· 3 years ago
Good article Scoble..
as for the "can i do this, can i do this"... all of those features would rock, but they're all features that the music industry doesn't want you to do. How much pressure did MS recieve from them? I'm sure there's a lot.
The Music industry would collectively shit themselves if you were given a handheld device that played multi DRM formats, recorded radio, let you download music on the fly.
also, I'm sick of the indsutry using "podcast", and "ipod compatible".
My Jeep has had an audio in jack in it's stereo years before the ipod was dreampt of. It's not ipod compatible, it's audio in. (great for road trips.. hook up laptop through car speakers, watch movie)
It's genious marketing though. Almost a "brand hijack". How many people actually buy ipods to listen to "podcasts"... and why did we need a name other than "audio file"?
dmatriz
· 3 years ago
HEY SCHO, I LIKE YOUR STATS & REVIEWS... YET IF YOUR REVIEW IS BIASED ON ZUNE THEN YOU MAY BE QUITE WRONG! APPLE DOES DESERVE THE DESIGN ON "i-POD"! YET M$ SEEMS TO ADAPT THE SAME...NICE BLOGGING...
Anthony
· 3 years ago
There's one significant problem with the subscription feature - having to give Microsoft a credit card for recurring payments. I had a paid hotmail account for a while (so I could get POP access). It was super easy to sign up on the web page. When I no longer needed it, it was super hard to cancel. There is no way to cancel online. I had to call. It wasn't easy to find the number. The place was only open certain hours (which didn't match my needs). The first time I called their "computer was down" and I had to call back the next day. Then of course the mandatory grilling to find out why I was leaving. Overall a really bad customer experience which ensured I will never sign up for a Microsoft paid service again. Back-end service quality matters at least as much as the product itself.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Vivek: I've never done much reporting here, even when I worked back at Microsoft. There is an unsubscribe button on your News Aggregator for a reason. You might be happier reading my Link Blog where I just link to other bloggers who are doing a good job.
TK
· 3 years ago
I will not buy an iPod. I will not buy a Zune.
In my opinion, they are just overpriced "junk". Plus, I don't want to "fit-in" with the rest. People look pathetic wearing their iPods on their backpacks or on their arms so they could "show it off". Sad.
We are like cookies from a massive cookie cutter machine.
Davor
· 3 years ago
How stable is Zune? Does it crashes? Does it have viruses? Battery life? Just a few thoughts...
Andy Freeman
· 3 years ago
Only geeks currently know what updating means, and they know that an update can reduce functionality. The Vista license says that MS reserves the right to degrade the OS. (If an update makes it impossible to do something that I could do before and I want to do said something, thats a degrade.)
Yes, Apple can degrade IPods through upgrades, but MS is the one with the bad reputation in this area. That's an obstacle that Zune has to overcome.
devils_advocate
· 3 years ago
Robert - It feels sick everytime you ask someone to 'unsubscribe' just because they disagree with you or criticize. Not something a 'book author' would do regularly.
I am thinking how your blog entry would like if your car manufacturer told you to stop using 'their car' bcos you complained...
Rich
· 3 years ago
I tried to force my daughter down the path of Napster and Creative player, I wanted her to have access to all these songs without worrying about pay-per-download. Blew up in my face. Subscription services to-go were WAY too confusing for her (and even for me). Sometimes they would just stop working. And of course she now wants -- and really always wanted -- an iPod.
I think there's a market for an Apple alternative -- isn't that a funny concept -- that will just slowly grow over time. Remember Internet Explorer, Microsoft MP3 player will have a similar path but ending I think more at 50-50, which would be a huge Apple long-term success story.
totoro
· 3 years ago
best comment so far? #60, and mrbill!
"hint…the xbox 360 is killing ps3. microsoft is already working on the third generation xbox. and I ask you again, are you ready to count them out before the zune is even released?"
anyone else see the humor in this? :D
david zotter
· 3 years ago
Zune will not live up to the hype.
Seriously...is this the best MSFT can do? If so, they are dooomed.....and I hate to say it being a MSFT fanboy for years.
This is about design... the design doesn't even come close.
Best, E. David Zotter
Sportsunit
· 3 years ago
Great article Robert. It seemed rather fair to both the Ipod and Zune. In all actuality, this will be a very interesting battle. The Ipod lemmings think it will go one way, the MS fanboys obviously think it will go the other. I'm a subscription music listener for life. I just can't go back to the pay per song model. Currently, I use a sandisk with AOL Music Now. I get good mileage out of it. But, I want a traditional several-gig beast with the slickness of a Gigabeat S that also features subscription music. With that being said, the Zune is an obvious choice for me. It's not really about the cool factor or anything else. If Apple offered subscriptions, then I'd give them a look. Until then, I have no reason to look their way. And since I'll be buying this 249 dollar device, they may be out of the picture for several years. And by the way, brown is the new white. People either love it or hate it, and talk about a conversation piece...I can see people defending it now with heated battles ensuing, and you can be sure the Ipod lemmings will attack it venemously.
Nescio
· 3 years ago
so who want on the list for testing the Commodore Gravel in-Pocket ;-)
Robert and others feel more than free to give suggestions for our device. Btw we will release a SDK for develop and share your own apps for the Gravel devices.
Oh I will unsubscribe not because you opine but because you can't seem to stomach criticism - it looks like only conformism works with you. I am ok with that.
I will take my 2 cents and my eyeballs elsewhere.
Russ Henry
· 3 years ago
MS Future Team: How about a cool prox viewing feature where xBox players can transmit the current game to Zune units within a 50 foot radius if the option is selected on multiple Zunes.
How many kids would like the "watch me kick his but in blah blah " game function. Talk about connecting. The new spectator sport while waiting to take on the competition and gaining strategy. I could hear it now "Get him! Look out ! etc. " Just a thought for the Zune team. Robert ask Patrick what he thinks about the idea-r. Was that you in Bldg 42 on the 3rd Floor? ; ) Say hi to Bill.
Stealth blogging at its best. No not yet.
kamlabhatt
· 3 years ago
This is a very useful comparison for buying.
I have had a case of Hamlet: Do be or not be in the iPod camp. But your post nailed the decision for me.
I was waiting to get the word on Zune before making a decision. Guess iPod is the way to go, especially if your son did not see anything different in Zune. The young ones are the harbingers for any kind of traction in the gadget world.
Thanks for the review.
Kamla
kamla
Russ Narei
· 3 years ago
First, Apple is not sitting around waiting for competitors to catch up. It continues to improve and innovate even though it's on top. Zune may add features and updates, but in that time frame, iPods will also.
Second, the Mac's market share of personal computers is low. That's all personal computers in all uses including enterprise. In home use where iPods and Zunes will compete, Macs have a larger market share that the stats quoted by some here. Based on past Microsoft behavior, we would eventurally expect Zune for Mac.
Wade Rockett
· 3 years ago
The Macintosh incompatibility and podcast-unfriendliness are total deal breakers for me.
When I bought my iPod, I thought that I'd mostly use it to listen to music. As it turns out, podcasts have become my media of choice - I listen to them on my commutes to and from work, and most of my news and current events information come from podcasts (and textcasts.)
I'm sure that podcast support will be added to the Zune in later versions. But until then, given my listening habits, it makes no sense for me to switch.
And I use Windows at work, but an iBook at home. So I need my device to function with both.
Podesta
· 3 years ago
There's still someone who thinks he can use Wi-Fi to check his mail on a Zune as much as the limitations of its Wi-Fi have been discussed?
Vivek, the digital media content market is not even remotely about backwaters like India. For the time being and the foreseeable future this is a First World matter. Heck, even much of Europe still does not have full iTunes Store access.
Isaiah, about a quarter of Americans currently own or have accesss to MP3 players. It puzzles me that people like you and Bat Masterson just pull some arbitary figure out of the air instead of checking market research.
Raman
· 3 years ago
I am afraid I have to agree with Vivek. No offence, Robert but I will go elsewhere as well.
When viewers who disagree with you are continually advised to unsubscribe, your blog begins to lost its objectivity.
Thanks a lot for the good information and witty comments, Robert. Time for me to move on!
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Vivek and Raman: this is my blog. Sorry you don't like it. Have fun reading something else. I don't want to be a "reporter." If you expect me to be one, you probably will be happier over at news.com or ZDNet or somewhere like that.
What you get here is what I want to talk about. Period. To expect something else will get you the reaction I just gave. Go somewhere else. It's obvious you want to read someone else.
As for taking criticism, I get tons of criticism. I think my record on listening and understanding criticism is unparalleled. If you think it's not, then maybe you aren't a smart reader and you might be happier reading someone else who doesn't expect a reader to be smart.
Kevin Crossman
· 3 years ago
"I remember being in a meeting at Microsoft where someone showed off how much better the iPod experience"
I think you meant Apple for this sentence.
Regarding the ability for Zune to update itself, how does this differ from Apple's ability to send iPod firmware updates through iTunes?
Bat Masterson
· 3 years ago
Robert, Apple does provide software updates for iPods. I don't know where you got the idea that they didn't. Unless it's that you buy so many iPods for yourself and your son, that your purchases are more frequent than the software updates themselves; so you're getting the new software via hardware purchases. ;-)
Bat Masterson
· 3 years ago
Podesta, you completely missed my point.
My point was that Mac users will choose Apple products regardless. So it makes no sense for a portable media player to go after the Mac user market. Your response that "Apple owns the Windows market just as much as the Mac market" (wrt mp3 players) is irrelevant to my point. The Windows market is more wide-open to competition from multiple companies. With the Mac market, competition basically dies once Apple introduces a product in a particular field, because Mac users ignore and mock competing products from that point on. I've been a Mac user since 1986 and a Windows user since 1990. I know of which I speak. If anyone is "clueless" it's you.
frabgod
· 3 years ago
If Zune Version 1 is as good as I'm seeing it, and if Microsoft stays committed to its success (as they have with Xbox), then I'm in. The subscription service, the screen size, the built-in FM, the cool UI, and sure, the wireless sharing, are good enough to put it over iPod for me. It's been well thought out, and I think we'll see many of the holes - like podcasting - filled painlessly in firmware releases.
Kevin: no, I meant at Microsoft. We were in a meeting where we were talking about what the iPod did right.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
What the iPod did right, everything Sony did not.
Podesta
· 3 years ago
Whoa, Nellyf. Bat, you said:
"My point was that Mac users will choose Apple products regardless. So it makes no sense for a portable media player to go after the Mac user market. Your response that “Apple owns the Windows market just as much as the Mac market” (wrt mp3 players) is irrelevant to my point. The Windows market is more wide-open to competition from multiple companies. With the Mac market, competition basically dies once Apple introduces a product in a particular field, because Mac users ignore and mock competing products from that point on. I’ve been a Mac user since 1986 and a Windows user since 1990. I know of which I speak. If anyone is “clueless” it’s you."
To support your position, you must explain why products such as Microsoft Office and Microsoft mice are so popular with Mac users. After all, there are Apple and non-M$ third party alternatives. Take all the space you need to 'educate' us.
When you've done with that, DO explain why you believe Apple computers have three percent of the U.S. market.
If Zune were The Perfect Pod, it would indeed eat into iPod market share quickly. The reason it will not is that it is not even competitive.
Robert, perhaps if you describe your blog as being an expression of opinion in your masthead people like the fellows who are leaving will not get so huffy when opinion is what they get.
Larry
· 3 years ago
I just don't get why anyone would purchase this product.
1. MicroSoft has been saying different things for years re: why the iPod will fail and Microsoft's offerings would prevail. None of their prognostications have proved true. As a result, MicroSoft lacks credibility (see failed positioning statements below), the one thing you can't buy.
2. WiFi etc are features that are easily duplicatable. Why would anyone purchase a product for a feature that can so easliy be added (and for which patents from Apple already exist)?
Failed MicroSoft positioning statements: * people want choice in their music playing hardware * people want subscription services * everything is moving to cell phones * we beat Apple in the 90's and we'll beat Apple again in music.
The company, in my humble opinion, is tilting at too many Windmills.
It's getting really sad to watch this.
Some Guy
· 3 years ago
Zune is already over. It's fading out just like that "Origami" abortion a couple of months back.
I forget who it was that first wrote this, but I agree with it 100%: How many times have you wanted to hand someone a song that you're listening to on your iPod? Lots of times, right? Now, how many times have you wanted to hand someone a song that will vanish in three days? Never in your life, right?
Some Guy
· 3 years ago
Ok, I've just watched the video. The dude talking about "the product" is an utterly interchangeable generic marketing dink, who would be just as enthusiastic about chicken McNuggets as he is about this thing he's hawking. He nearly always refers to it as "the product", not "zune", not "the music player", not "MY music player".
Kawasaki could use this video as the textbook case of how NOT to be an effective evangelist. For crying out loud, he DIDN'T EVEN KNOW the resolution of the display! That clown is a perfect fit for the Zoon: they're both worthless.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Heck, Podesta, he has to explain how Mac users don't use anything non-Apple, but he admits that he's a Mac user that uses Windows. Duh. How's that for clueless?
Diego
· 3 years ago
"I tried to force my daughter down the path of Napster and Creative player"
Forced your daughter to use a Creative player? That's gotta be some form of child abuse! :)
insearchoffootball
· 3 years ago
i remember the days of napster .. the kings of P2P sharing ... and the first to get drilled becasue of it
I think that all the people who are freaking out that Scoble is a human with opinions and is not a "reporter" are confused. Does the blog state anywhere that this is news reporting? No. 99% of all the crap on the internet posted as fact is opinion, so why can't Scoble openly have opinions and post about them without getting jumped by a bunch of cranks?
Lighten up. Quit holding other people to standards that your comments clearly indicate you aren't holding yourselves to (ouch - yeah, take THAT banana up the tailpipe).
Russ Henry
· 3 years ago
"As for taking criticism, I get tons of criticism."
Mr. Scoble has flamed a few who may “Knit” pick spelling, grammer, etc. I have never observed an attack on logic other than “I do not agree”.
Robert, "crits" may be a cry for help and recognition.
Just a Grain of Salt from Salty me. IMHO,IMHO,IMHO,IMHO,IMH OOOO
I suppose the thing for me is that both products suffer from the same problem, the battery is not replaceable by the purchaser. This makes them an expensive piece of dispensable technology and so I would not buy either of them. Also the ipod does not play all formats and offers less features than comparable devices. I know that Apple is a marketing company rather than a technology company but I would have thought by now there would have been a backlash.
Bat Masterson
· 3 years ago
Goebbels, you have some nerve calling me "clueless" when you choose to name yourself after a Nazi propagandist who murdered his own children.
And to both you and Podesta, I said 99.999% of Mac users will not choose a non-Apple product over an Apple alternative, not 100%, you clueless buffoons. Oh, and my throwing out that 99.999% figure is known as "hyperbole", a rhetorical device that is exaggeration in order to make a point. What distinguishes hyperbole from exaggerations that are meant to deceive, is that both the speaker and the listener recognize hyperbole for what it is rather than taking it literally. Unfortunately neither of you two are intelligent enough to recognize hyperbole, so you take hyperbolic statements literally and then attack them as lies or whatever. Truly pathetic.
Etienne S.
· 3 years ago
Maybe someone can explain me why the hell the Ipod is soo much cool, and "we have to have one".
No, I don't troll. Just I don't understand: there is now a lot, lot, lot of MP3 players, and they are all very easy to use: plug it in your PC/Mac, then drag and drop the MP3s (with or without DRM, if the firmware allows that, that is good), put in your playlist generated with whatever tool (The Godfather, Winamp, Foobar, etc.), and that's it. You have the music you want, or more exactly the sound you want (I mean it can be music, show, podcast, etc.).
OK, the capacity is not on the level of the Ipod or hard drive equipped MP3 players, but my... How many hours of "sound" can you put on a device like that and really listen to?
On the other side, I found PDAphone to be the Ipod killer *for* *me* I mean: small computer, with MP3 capabilities, video, phone, etc. Developpers can extend it very easily (with the SDK). And for the memory, well, you are currently limited to 4GB, seems tp be ridiculous compared to HDD... But no mechanical parts, means (usually) longer life for the support. The weak part being the battery I admit.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
"Goebbels, you have some nerve calling me “clueless” when you choose to name yourself after a Nazi propagandist who murdered his own children."
Why does my nick make me clueless. You go on and on about hyperbole, but I can't use both hyperbole and irony in my nickname at a propagandist's site?
How hyperbolic are you being? Is it 75%, 50% of Mac users? What? 50% of Mac users would still be 10 million more Zune users than MS has now. Isn't it somewhat clueless to make a claim that you yourself are 100% a contradiction of?
Steele
· 3 years ago
Goebbels, your point in calling yourself "Goebbels" is a shot at Scoble for being a "propagandist?" For whom is he spreading propaganda? Sure, he sings the unqualified praises of Google more than I would, but I wouldn't call it "propaganda".
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Steele, I've been commenting here for over 4 years. You know the time period when he worked for a certain company that had a better media plan than Apple, etc...
stephen
· 3 years ago
doods im 15 and i want a zune, forget the ipod because it doesnt have the WI-FI FEATURE! IF ALL KIDS HAD This wi-fi feature on the i-pod of course the zune isn't anything, but i think zune will take over!!!!!!!!!!!
MiniMage
· 3 years ago
"Can I use my iPod music on it that I’ve purchased on iTunes? No." Is this a theoretical question? I thought you told us you didn't put up with CRAP. http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/03/27/does...
Jon T
· 3 years ago
"If software developers are enabled to build new experiences for the Zune, then we could see something killer come along that’ll get more people interested in the Zune."
NO! A bunch of developers doing uncoordinated bits and bobs here and there takes you back to why MS needed to try a Zune in its closed environment- a closed, perfectly created and perfectly executed environment that delivers...
No signs of that yet, because it lacks 1) imagination 2) innovation and 3) passion.
Will
· 3 years ago
Scoble is STILL Microsoft's bitch.
Podesta
· 3 years ago
BM said: "Unfortunately neither of you two are intelligent enough to recognize hyperbole, so you take hyperbolic statements literally and then attack them as lies or whatever. Truly pathetic."
So, Bat Masterson is still at it on this old thread? Still putting down Apple in a doomed effort to score brownie points with Microsoft by brownnosing Scoble. He is not the only sycophant around here (that MacBeach guy is quite competitive) but I must say his efforts are particularly embarrasing. (If Bat Masterson were capable of embarrassment, that is.)
Etienne said:
"No, I don’t troll. Just I don’t understand: there is (sic) now a lot, lot, lot of MP3 players, and they are all very easy to use: plug it in your PC/Mac, then drag and drop the MP3s (with or without DRM, if the firmware allows that, that is good), put in your playlist generated with whatever tool (The Godfather, Winamp, Foobar, etc.), and that’s it. You have the music you want, or more exactly the sound you want (I mean it can be music, show, podcast, etc.).
Not really, Etienne. Other MP3 players are not competitive with iPod/iTunes for many reasons. I suggest you actually read this thread to learn what those reasons are.
Winking at Will.
mike
· 3 years ago
"Updateability: better than iPod (if I were Apple I’d worry about this)."
Apple has had this for ages... Once a new iPod is released, software update will update your iPod software..
The problem, what he didn't say, is when they actually update the hardware, you cannot 'update' your old Zune to .. 'catch up'... it's a hardware update..
But new features etc, are always updated through Software Update... not new
Wesley Parish
· 3 years ago
phill:j, you're not the only individual in the Western World, whatever that is, and however that is defined, who lacks an iPod.
Microsoft's problem is of course, its usual bull-at-a-gate charge at the (perceived) problem, shedding money like a snake its skin, and sense like a desperate maiden aunt at a too-readily available tradesman.
Perhaps if it took another look at the issue, and asked what other things a Zune could do, to integrate the Zune with the massive prior investment in computer software and hardware, its chances might look a little more hopeful.
What I'm thinking of, is this - how many of us have more than one computer? How many of us have sound cards, etc, for each computer? How many of us would rather have a single node for that function, networked to all the other computers and capable of connecting seamlessly to whatever operating system we are currently using?
And Microsoft hasn't seen that? I think that desperate maiden aunt comparison might be a trifle unfair to maiden aunts, who aren't usually that stupid - maybe a headless chicken is a better comparison.
Just my 0.02c - inflation again! ;)
Wesley Parish
Patrick Sturgill
· 3 years ago
I wonder if the Zune will have less hardware problems than Apple's MP3 player. As someone who operates an iPod repair site: www.ipodcorrectors.com I see dozens and dozens of the same problems each and every week. Perhaps Zune will take note of these issues and make an improved MP3 player.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Wow, dozens of repairs per week versus tens of millions sold per quarter! Don't try to whore your business with a lame comment masking the spam!
Joe
· 3 years ago
What about SOUND QUALITY??
It's the Zune any better?
The iPod sound is just rubbish (I still use it and all my kids have one BUT it's the greatest disappointment I've found)
Paraglide Tandem
· 3 years ago
I have a Motorola Q phone with @ gig Sd card and Motorola Bluetooth wireless headset and Ipod 80 gig ( love the Ipod and can barely tolerate using media player on windows smartphone) Perhaps MSFt could take a subset of Zune player and sell it to Smartphone or PoCket PC devices that already have some wireless capabilities and a lot more market presence.
I have owned several Creative and I-River products over the last few years. Ease of use and synching music were continual pains so much that I eventually switched to Ipod photo a few years ago.
For me ease of use and a fast response from the device while scrolling or searching among songs podcasts videos and photos is most important.
I like to fly a paraglider using the wireless blue tooth headset and using my q phone , but for most day to day music and podcast listening I use the IPOD. I would more likely buy a Ipod like device with bluetooth built in and wireless headphones.
I would use that feature much more than using WIFI to share music. If the useability of wireless sharing is not pain free (if it takes too long or is too much hassle to share songs wirelessly ), it degrades the value of including that feature.
I agree that Zune has no compelling must have features yet. Third party plugin's would be a great idea to extend its value.
Does ZUNE have any ease of use features like:
Ability to delete song from device directly without docking to computer Easily create and manage playlists Find a song among thousands of songs
Did the Zune product managers ask any mainstream users what their priorities would be to improve the Ipod for useability ?
Zune is trying to create a splash with features that may not be compelling to people most likely to buy such devices..
Jeff Langer
· 3 years ago
Zune is like X-box the real deal, Apple has the lead but Microsoft has the money and ability take a giant bite out of (tiny) Apple, few people are seeing what's going to happen. MSFT is going to take Apple to school just like it's did to ADM, Playstation, Google and soon Apple. Mr. Softie has a lot of cash and the ability to pay for private companies to improve a great product which I-pod is but to make it better, over the course of time Apple and Google will bleed red and Microsoft will continue to be the greatest technology company on the planet. If you think that Apple has won the war you are a fool, the war has just begun, buy MSFT and Zune and admit the big dog always get's the bone!
Dude
· 3 years ago
Dude, you cant write this stuff based on shit. For all you know is that the software upgradeablility will allow for hardware change (wireless purchasing). Microsoft even says that the whole point to this project is to test the ability of the Zune. Plus your kid is most likly a fag. Sorry to break the truth, but I purchased a Creative Zen Vision M, and guess what, everyone talks to me about my deviece.
Some kid with ipod: "hey what you got there?" Your kid: "a brand new iPod" Some Kid: "o thats nice/cool" END
Some Kid: "hey wat you got there?" Me " A zune/ZVM/(whatever, not ipod)" Some Kid: "Sweet, whats it do? How much did it cost, asks to see it, blah blah blah..." and eventually admits that he should have bought one. Why, because apple dominates with commmercials, if these better/ same priced MP3/4 players actually did public advertising, then some progress would be made. Plus everyone seems to think that MS has no potential to be "more creative" than Apple. This is simply stupid and wrong, all they do is hire someone better than the guys at apple... DONE!
Deen Ross
· 3 years ago
The iPod's 2.5” display is smaller, but the 3” Zune and last year's iPod both offer the same resolution. The Zune's slightly larger display is still showing the same number of dots; they'll just be more obviously pixelated because each dot is larger. The lower pixel density of the Zune's screen means its display can only be less sharp.
This flaw is exaggerated by Microsoft's Vista-esque choice of using soft alpha transparency throughout the Zune interface. This makes for nice marketing photos, but makes it harder to navigate through screens when focusing on other things: walking, driving, exercising, riding a bike, or other things iPod users do.
While neither the iPod nor the Zune provide a cinematic movie experience, there is no benefit to having a slightly larger screen at the same resolution in a handheld device, apart from possibly lower battery life.
I read someplace that "J Allard plays chess... [other developers] play checkers."
It seems this way with the Xbox and Zune. With these two, he could build such an impressive ecosystem that extends way beyond just a PMP and computer.
Also, the "update-ability" of the Zune sounds nice. Especially if they have an update waiting to come out as soon as the product drops! I wonder what features it will unlock!
Maybe they should put him in charge of breathing new life into the media center boxes.
(Oh... and I am a Mac/iPod user.)
mark henley
· 3 years ago
OOBE? they already have songs, pics, and videos on it so i think its pretty flashy out of the box
Richard Johnson
· 3 years ago
The thing is that MS is basically not cool. All the Zune websites there are, are quite frankly nauseating. With captions like " Hey Dude Youv'e got a Zune" is MS trying to sound hip and trendy. Sorry MS your'e not perceived as cool. You do OK software which because everyone else uses everyone is FORCED to get but don't try and get and make money out of one of my greatest pleasures, listening to music. I'll be getting an Ipod.
LK
· 3 years ago
Good Article overall. There are some inaccuracies (ipods cannot be update, etc) but hey, the rest of the article is still good..
If somebody goes to a shop to buy a gift for christmas this year, they would already know about the ipod family and their goodiness. They might have heard about Zune. Taking into a/c the feature rich ipod and also the varieties available to suit different budgets, I think a majority of them will buy an ipod. (If sony hadn't f***ed up the ps3 release, they might have considered that instead).. So, the fate for this holidays season is pretty much sealed I think...
So, the question is, what about next year and the future? Its difficult to see what will happen beyond the next year. Now, I would be surprised if Apple doesn't have a newer version or flavor of ipod up its sleeve. I think we all will get to see a lot of fun next year...
I know people that have itunes 5.0 and still have the 1.1 firmware on their iPods... event in iTunes it takes 30 seconds to upgrade.. there is know way that upgradability is a killer feature... most people don't care to upgrade.
David
· 3 years ago
If the zune has WiFi then it will be so easy to update and give it more features. And im sure people will make cracks to get by the feature where when you send a song to a friend you can only listen to it 3 times... People always make cracks or other utilites for Mp3 players. The Ipod has linux where you can play lots of different games and stuff. So im sure people will take advantage of the Wifi on the zune.
First of all, as mentioned on other zune sites and forums, Zune is not releasing any special wifi qualities such as wifi internet connection because they believed that buyers may think that it is too complicated to work and will warn other buyers not to purchase it because of the complications. They will however release different types of wifi interactions such as wireless syncing and internet access. Zune blew Ipod out of the water on this. If anyone has a PSP I'm sure you are aware that when they first came out they didn't have a web browser either, but they (like the zune) were able to update the network. This is were ipod goes under. File sharing is a neat quality to have because it introduces new artists to people but does not allow them to keep the songs permanantly, therefore making the user of the zune want to purchase more songs. The bigger screen also is a great success by microsoft. You can switch it to landscape so the screen isnt nearly as small as the Ipod. Overall, yes, Zune does have a good chance in this run.
Brad
· 3 years ago
First of all, as mentioned on other zune sites and forums, Zune is not releasing any special wifi qualities such as wifi internet connection because they believed that buyers may think that it is too complicated to work and will warn other buyers not to purchase it because of the complications. They will however release different types of wifi interactions such as wireless syncing and internet access. Zune blew Ipod out of the water on this. If anyone has a PSP I'm sure you are aware that when they first came out they didn't have a web browser either, but they (like the zune) were able to update the network. This is were ipod goes under. File sharing is a neat quality to have because it introduces new artists to people but does not allow them to keep the songs permanantly, therefore making the user of the zune want to purchase more songs. The bigger screen also is a great success by microsoft. You can switch it to landscape so the screen isnt nearly as small as the Ipod. Overall, yes, Zune does have a good chance in this run.
Brad
· 3 years ago
First of all, as mentioned on other zune sites and forums, Zune is not releasing any special wifi qualities such as wifi internet connection because they believed that buyers may think that it is too complicated to work and will warn other buyers not to purchase it because of the complications. They will however release different types of wifi interactions such as wireless syncing and internet access. Zune blew Ipod out of the water on this. If anyone has a PSP I'm sure you are aware that when they first came out they didn't have a web browser either, but they (like the zune) were able to update the network. This is were ipod goes under. File sharing is a neat quality to have because it introduces new artists to people but does not allow them to keep the songs permanantly, therefore making the user of the zune want to purchase more songs. The bigger screen also is a great success by microsoft. You can switch it to landscape so the screen isnt nearly as small as the Ipod. Overall, yes, Zune does have a good chance in this run.
Brad Smith
· 3 years ago
First of all, as mentioned on other zune sites and forums, Zune is not releasing any special wifi qualities such as wifi internet connection because they believed that buyers may think that it is too complicated to work and will warn other buyers not to purchase it because of the complications. They will however release different types of wifi interactions such as wireless syncing and internet access. Zune blew Ipod out of the water on this. If anyone has a PSP I'm sure you are aware that when they first came out they didn't have a web browser either, but they (like the zune) were able to update the network. This is were ipod goes under. File sharing is a neat quality to have because it introduces new artists to people but does not allow them to keep the songs permanantly, therefore making the user of the zune want to purchase more songs. The bigger screen also is a great success by microsoft. You can switch it to landscape so the screen isnt nearly as small as the Ipod. Overall, yes, Zune does have a good chance in this run.
Heath aka The Batman Geek
· 3 years ago
First off, I am a windows guy, it's all I have ever known and I do not own an Ipod, why? Because I want video as well and that 2.5 inch screen just doesn't cut it. When I first heard the MS was making there own branded player, I thought hey it might be cool. However, as I have read more and more and listened to various reviews and studied the specs what it can do and can't do....I think MS has really missed the boat, the Zune offers nothing, nothing. a bigger screen is great but where is the content? And to top it off all the music I have bought from Play for Sure sites, such as WalMart, Real, etc will not work on this brand new MS product?! Why? They can't support their own program? That's just nuts. The sharing feature is a non factor, it is be honest who cares? Forcing DRM and who are you going to share with.
No support for podcasts or videocasts, etc Honestly tell me one good thing about the product, the price? I can get an video Ipod with a more music selection and buy movies, shows and subscribe to podcast, etc.
I am a MS guy, I wanted to like this product but I can't they did it wrong, they had a chance to wow us instead you are left going "why did they bring this out now?"
Maybe they will be realeasing updates and add support etc, but to me that smacks of not being ready and that first impression is hard to overcome if it's bad.
And one last thing, giving Universal a piece of the pie because we are all thief's?! MS caved, caved and for that they should be ashamed.
Bilbo
· 3 years ago
I wouldn't buy an iPod if it was half off with a hard drive full of all my favorite music. Not because it sucks, hell it seems to "have been" the best out there. I never liked those wussie Apple types who try to put themselves on the same plane as the vegan animal loving pita jerks. I'll stick to Microsoft I know whats good for me!! No has been for me!!
Joe
· 3 years ago
As far as hardware design goes, the Zune isn't really that impressive. I own a sweet little handful that is thinner and has a much bigger, brighter screen than the Zune. It has wi-fi (that actually allows you to browse the web and get e-mail!) AND Bluetooth to sync it to my laptop. It can play .wmv and .mov video, MP3 and AAC audio, and display JPEG photos. The ONLY thing it doesn't have that the Zune has is a hard drive. But it does have an SD card slot for memory expansion. It also has great schedule and address book functions, many great games, handwriting recognition, can do Word and Excel documents, and act as a remote control for my TV and DVR. And it cost only $50 more than a Zune. It's called a Palm TX.
Crocodilian
· 3 years ago
Have a Zima with your Zune.
Seriously.
If ever there were a textbook business case of how companies which grow up with monopolies are unable to offer acceptable products in competitive markets, its Microsoft.
Sure, XBox has come a long, long, way-- but I'd say that is as much a case of Sony's self-destruction as XBox's virtues.
Not only is Apple not Sony, its one of the companies taking apart Sony (eg-- the iPod is what the Walkman should have become; the utter loss of one of the most valuable consumer electronic brands is Sony's legacy).
So, can MS take on Apple?
Its very unlikely-- not only is there the issue of design, there's the issue of intensity. Apple cares about a very small number of things, and cares about them intensely. At the end of the day, in Redmond, the sun rises and sets on Office and Windows-- everything else is a rounding error (though XBox is emerging). MS has demonstrated that their capacity to "keep their eyes on multiple balls" is very limited. Think about Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, Plays4sure,Tablet PC, Stinger phones. . . the list of not-quite-implemented MS initiatives is growing very, very long.
I suspect you can add Zune to that list.
And pop open a nice cold Zima while you're at it.
If you can find one.
Ryan Karolak
· 3 years ago
Integration:
I say the ipod is better. The iPod can be synced with both MacOS and Windows (2K, XP, Vista), the Zune is only compatible with Windows.
In my opinion the design with the touch/scroll wheel on the ipod is better.
The Zune automaticly DRMs all content and is NOT compatible with Plays For Sure songs. The iPod can play all songs purchased from the iTunes music store from any date.
Updates: Apple frequently updates ALL the ipods when a problem is found with any model, including the original Scroll Wheel model.
Brendan Conway
· 3 years ago
You seem to base alot of your argument on the fact that the zune is compatible with the xbox and that the ipod isn't, but this isn't true. I use my iPod all the time with my xBox to play songs while playing games or just to chillax.
Patric
· 3 years ago
Basically Microsoft Corp made the unholy trinity of mistakes on this one.
1. They pre-bashed a beloved brand (I-Pod) out of the gate and called their yet un-tested, un-marketed, un-available product "The I-Pod Killer".
2. They came to the market with a product that rebuilt an entire system from the ground up, in an area that was already dominated by the I-Pod. Instead of focusing on a product that was cheaper, lighter and more stylish that might have worked in tandem with the I-Pod.
3. They made it in "National Park Bench-Brown", which is to say the unholiest of colors. Brown is not the new black, it is brown, plain and simple.
Just based on the color alone I see this product as DOA. Fortuntely Microsoft Corp has lots of money so they can refocus on other products they can also color brown...good Christ, what were they thinking!?
Fred
· 3 years ago
We have to compare ipod and Zune from a marketing perspective. Zune's purpose is to grab a portion of the ipod market. To effectively do that, it should atleast have similiar compatibility to the ipod or imporved compatability. Zune doesn't. I believe this is another ploy to try and make the masses windows dependent.
Zune is Awful
· 3 years ago
The Zune is awful.
1. The fake touch wheel is really four buttons covered by a plastic ring.
2. It won't play any of the music I already bought online from Microsoft, iTunes, or Napster. I'll need to now buy the tracks again from Microsoft to play them on Zune.
3. The MS music store hide the fact that it only has about half as many songs available as iTunes. (i.e. they pretend they have Beatles music, for example, but they don't)
4. MS music store has this mandatory "buy MSPoints and use them to buy music" cash exchange system that is clearly designed to push the price of a single track past 0.99 without you knowing they've done it. All they have to do is change the DollarMSPoint exchange rate at any time, and it's done.
5. --- The totally enforced DRM is ridiculous --- You can only beam a particlar track to your buddy's Zune once. You cannot forward a beamed track. A beamed track gets deleted after 3 plays, after which you have to buy it from the MS music site. If you start a song, then stop it, that counts as a "play" (if you get more than 90 seconds into it).
6. Zune won't connect to MS Media player, to any Mac or even Windows Vista.
7. Zune can't receive podcasts, can't be used as a hardrive for other files, treats your own CD MP3s as if you don't own the songs.(deletes them after 3 plays if 'beamed').
Zune is Awful
· 3 years ago
The Zune is awful.
1. The fake touch wheel is really four buttons covered by a plastic ring.
2. It won't play any of the music I already bought online from Microsoft, iTunes, or Napster. I'll need to now buy the tracks again from Microsoft to play them on Zune.
3. The MS music store hides the fact that it only has about half as many songs available as iTunes. (i.e. they pretend they have Beatles music, for example, but they don't)
4. MS music store has this mandatory "buy MSPoints and use them to buy music" cash exchange system that is clearly designed to push the price of a single track past 0.99 without you knowing they've done it. All they have to do is change the DollarMSPoint exchange rate at any time, and it's done.
5. --- The totally enforced DRM is ridiculous --- You can only beam a particlar track to your buddy's Zune once. You cannot forward a beamed track. A beamed track gets deleted after 3 plays, after which you have to buy it from the MS music site. If you start a song, then stop it, that counts as a "play" (if you get more than 90 seconds into it).
6. Zune won't connect to MS Media player, to any Mac or even Windows Vista.
7. Zune can't receive podcasts, can't be used as a hardrive for other files, treats your own CD MP3s as if you don't own the songs.(deletes them after 3 plays if 'beamed').
Kelly L.
· 3 years ago
Are we seriously comparing this Zune thing to an iPod? Am I on candid camera or something? Microsoft and cool in the same sentence? Microsoft and innovative features? Can anyone hear themselves here?
Alan
· 3 years ago
This is a pretty entertaining thread. There's nothing like stirring up the good 'ol MS is out to destroy the world perspective to generate traffic and discussion. Just some comments on some points made in other posts:
1. MP3 player penetration. Someone said that about 10% of the potential market has some type of portable player (and Apple has something like 70-80% share of this). Another person countered this and said the number of folks who have portable players already is much higher. I dunno who everyone hangs out with, but that 10% adoption rate seems closer to the truth which means there is potentially a huge market out there waiting to be tapped by Apple, Microsoft, SanDisk, or whomever. Certainly, there seems to be room for choice for the consumer.
2. I wonder if anyone from MS has ever stated for the record that Zune is an "iPod Killer"? I know that's the perception from the media, but it seems like everyone who has posted here laughs when Zune is mentioned in the same breath as the iPod ecosystem. I think you play right into Microsoft's hand by comparing the Zune to the iPod. If it really is a non-competitor, why mention it at all? I personally would rather see more comparisons with an Archos, SanDisk, or even Cowon or iRiver player. Certainly, they are more mature players in the market. Ignoring the Zune (if you really want it to fail) hurts Microsoft more in many ways than mentioning it negatively does. The fact that is coming up so often in articles indicates that people do think MS is a relevant player in the space, which is exactly what they want to establish.
3. iPod Repairs. I have a 1st generation Mini and the only thing I've had to do is replace the battery on it. I do have friends who have had their iPod "brick" on them, all when the warranty has expired. I think it's perceived that iPods fail more often than other players because there are simply so many more of them out there. How often you feel you should replace your unit because of obsolesence or mechanical breakdown is up to each individual.
4. Firmware upgrades. Yep, iPod and pretty much any modern consumer electronics device can be upgraded via a simply flashing of the firmware. I think the point of the Zune having more upside is that the raw hardware has more potential than the current generation of players (maybe save for the Music Gremlin). But I agree, the upgradeability argument is a bit misleading. I wonder if people would be taking about Zune so negatively if the software running it was Linux or some other embedded OS that was hackable?
5. iTunes Music Store vs Zune Marketplace. Completely agree that there is much less content in the Zune Marketplace than iTMS. Need to also say that both the pay-as-you-go and subscription options are going to appeal to very different people. To say that one system is better than the other is ludicrious and at least Zune Marketplace offers a choice. I do think the points system is confusing to anyone who hasn't used Xbox Live and certainly to anyone who has purchased anything from iTMS. Does it mean that it's simply a mechanism for Microsoft to deceptively make people spend more at the store? I think that's really stretching it. iTMS seems to be every bit as restrictive as the Zune Marketplace as far as buying so goes, and there is no subscription option whatsoever. Sure, stuff in iTMS has pretty flat pricing, but do you really want to spend as much money on the latest disposable pop song as something that is a back catalog item? It looks like the Zune Marketplace offers the flexiblity of pricing things differently, albeit at the expense of perceived simplicty. Oh, the whole Marketplace trying to deceive customers that there is more content there than is actually available argument is bunk. MTV does the same thing with URGE. Anyways, the Zune software is freely available to try out so you can see for yourself if it really feels deceiving.
6. Wireless sharing. Really, this is not a platform seller, even if the DRM restrictions were loosened up. That being said, at least it's an option with current generation of Zune devices. You want to talk about community and sharing? Pandora, Last.FM, and other music-centric social services are where the real action is going to happen (or are happening), IMHO. If Microsoft or Apple can integrate their device into services like this, then you'll really see the real music as a social experience happening on portable devices.
cheers
Chris
· 3 years ago
Ok, Zune has a better screen, resolutions and overall system, however, i would love if it had a bigger hard drive. Ipod is nice and all but it's way overrated. I reccomend a Creative Labs Zen Vision: M, best mp3 out there and you won't disappointed. Oh and Zune has better picture display. Ipod however has a bigger harddrive but Itunes is gay. I mean thats some serious homosexual crappy stuff.
zach
· 3 years ago
ok look.. the zune will have problems when other companies start making software for it.. the zune will get viruses.. (its from microsoft, remember?) apple is, as of right now, unbeatable. everyone knows that apple is always thinking one step ahead of the game, while microsoft is just happy to get the zune out on shelves. steve jobs has been quoted "2007 will be the biggest year for apple releases." he didn't let us down last year, and he sure as hell will not let us down this year.. 2006 marked the start of the microsoft decay.. 2007 should pretty much be the suffocating point of pc's.. sorry bill, but apples coming fast.. its scary to think about what they will be releasing next year. here's to 2007!
ps - itunes? = not gonna be beaten ANY time soon.. zune? = come on... we've seen how microsoft's shit "works already"
zorry, but the ipod WILL stay in the #1 spot for a very long time
zach
· 3 years ago
oh, and chris? get a life.. itunes, gay? yeah i guess it is since it is the number one online music store.. and it is the only online music store to reach top 5 in music retail overall... i guess itunes DOES suck and they really don't know what they're doing..
zach
· 3 years ago
oh.. one more thing.. zune has better integration? my ass! ipod has built stable alliances with everyone from bmw to jaguar.. there's some integration for you! hmmm xbox? or car... i think car, but thats probably just because i have a life and dont play video games all day..
ps - xbox 360 is pretty cool, im not bashing it.. im just sayin' if i could choose between integrating my mp3 player with that or a frikin car... come on! not to mention the recently announced alliances with airlines? ipods are now integrated on the road and in the air.. zune? iintegrated on xbox.. congrats?
me
· 3 years ago
the only reason why the ipod did so well is b.c apple made it compatible with windows.
Will
· 3 years ago
I have got threw about 8 ipods since they were released and iam not satisfied for a start Apple has the worst custormer servie i have ever had to deal with a ipod does not last more then 6 months. Ipods just malfuction alot. I have a microsoft computer like mos people and if something ever goes wrong iam sure the custormer service will be just as good and as for the wi-fi that is the best idea for an mp3 player, it drives me insane when my friend has a new cd he brought of itunes i asked if i got put it on my ipod it took me 4 hours and $10 of software to do it. As soon as i can get hold of a zune then i will be the first custormer. From Will
Guy
· 3 years ago
I think Apple needs to be careful. Love or hate Microsoft, almost everything they touch turns to gold. There were lots of people saying that the Xbox would fail, and it is #2 in the market, and with the year heads start and $200 price difference with the PS3 it may end up #1. The fact that it is easy to update the Zune is something great. You soon will be able to purchase TV shows and movies on your 360 using points, don't you think that will soon be available for the Zune? You can play your Zune through you 360 using the USB. Plus I don't care if a car has an iPod dock, for about $4 at Radio Shack I can buy a cable and plug my MP3 into my head unit. I have been doing this with my Zen for 3 months now. iPod isn't giving people what they wantno FM radio, no larger screens, no wi-fi, nothing, just new colors and better battery life. The status quo won't keep you on top. Ask Nintendo, 1994, nobody could forsee Nintendo being anything other than #1 for video games, and less than 10 years later they were #3. People wanted CD's for games, and Nintendo gave them carts for the N64, and people wanted their game systems to have DVD's and Nintendo gave us the Gamecube, now people want HD capabilities and Nintendo failed on that too. Lager storage space and better batteries will only placate people for so long. These complaints about the wi-fi being limited, atleast it has wi-fi nobody else does. The complaints about not playing Play for Sure stuff, no big deal burn it to CD and rip it into Zune. I am not sure if this will be iPod killer or not, but integrating it with the Xbox is a great feature. But finally someone who has the money to throw at Apple can take a serious run at them.
Doug
· 3 years ago
"Zune doesn’t have a podcast client."
Not trying to spam, but as the subject is lack of podcast support and third parties filling the gap...
It's an RSS video aggregator that's integrated with the Zune Marketplace software - to "feed your zune" video and audio podcasts. It's a stand alone client app based on the FireAnt platform. New interface, two integrated directories (FireAnt and Network2 guide) it's fast and, dare I say, almost bulletproof.
Enjoy.
Bob
· 3 years ago
Zune packs some features in the hardware and surprises to come later in the music / video service.
The Zune is far better than the current iPod - which looks like something out of the 1990s - the click wheel iPod is history.
The Only way Apple can hope to survive being Zuned right out of the market is by releasing the full screen video iPod with touch screen. While they are at updating the ipod, they might as well toss in camera, bluetooth wireless, AM/FM/SW radio, etc.
The electronics market has shown all too often how yesterday's got-to-have it hero becomes todays bargain bin rejects.
Now is not the time for Apple to be resting on it's past accomplishments.
If they are unprepared to compete with the Zune for the Christmas shopping season, at least Apple should have the next iPod ready for Jan 1st. 2007 - and try to capture some 'Christmas Money' sales at the tail end of the holiday season.
DCaff
· 3 years ago
Dont listen to any of these people who are talking about the zune and havnt even used one. I bought one the day it came out and i think it is awesome. All of you people need to learn a lession. Im not against the ipod and im not for microsoft...im for a good product that will expand the market and make it better. The zune is a brand new product and yall are comparing it too the 3rd and 4th generation ipod. I love the zune. It looks nice, it is easy to use...and of course it is bigger...the screen is huge. So what if the quality is the same as the ipod. When you are looking at tv's you tend to look at the bigger one. Yeah from a 10 inch tv to a 40 inch tv the quality will go down...but half an inch...that isnt going to make it look worse...its just a bigger screen which is awesome. And about the whole no videos or anything on the marketplace...it just came out...give it time. We need something to create good competition so that prices will go down and quality will go up. The zune is a great product...it may not have everything that the ipod has yet...but it has only been out for a couple of days..give it time. I would recommend the zune to everyone. It has its ups and downs...but so does the ipod. I think they are equal in there own ways. Just find the one that will work better in your life...just dont listen to reviewers who havnt even touched it yet...
stoykish
· 3 years ago
well i do agree that ipod is an overall better system for now but dont count the zune ot yet, remember this is only the first gen. you can also check out my ZUne review
I dont agree with you about the price, an ipod video is a bit over 2000 SEK and i got my zune with shipping included for 1900 SEK!
Chris
· 3 years ago
I still like the sony netwalk mans. And Ipod is not the best! Might have been the first but its not the best
JAMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
· 3 years ago
WELL THE ZUNE IS NOT THAT POPULAR ENOUGH TO BEAT THE I POD WHICH HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG. THE ZUNE DESIGN SHOULD BE BETTER. JUST FACE IT U ALL WANT AN 80 GIG I POD VIDEO BECAUSE I KNOW I DO SO GET THE I POD PEOPLE
Simple Inquirer
· 3 years ago
This is not ment to be an inflamitory question but does anyone have an opinion on these two MP3 players if they are just for normal use without all these speciall gadgets? Don't get me wrong, I love all of these things as much as the next person but i would love to hear an opinion of someone who would just use it for some music and videos.
Simple Inquirer
· 3 years ago
Another not-published or seldom-talked-about feature is guesting. A friend can take his Zune over to your computer, set up a "guest" relationship with your Zune Marketplace software (as opposed to a regular owner relationship), and you're free to drag songs and pictures from your library onto their device. These songs do not have the 3 play 3 day limit on them. Depending on whether you purchased or you're leasing these songs, you can do this with either 5 or 2 Zunes, respectively. So in essence, if your friend wants to grab a few songs off your library for listening to, they can— just not on WIFI.
Just another interesting tid-bit
will shakespeare
· 3 years ago
what would be good is if zune or apple were to include a specker in the device such as that in my rokr. it has great sound quality and adds a whole new dimension to the player. if the zune was to have a speaker first i think that could be the breakthrough feature for mictosoft.
shelbycockrell
· 3 years ago
Looks like you've written on a popular topic. You know, at first I was really impressed with iPod and thought it was the most fabulous thing (and I still use my nano all the time).. but it has a lot of small operational errors. If Zune can beat iPod by working smoothly and having good customer service, I'm sold. I'm impatient and I hate my expensive tech toys to screw up.
Bob Smith
· 3 years ago
i am an anti- microsoft person and will never use another microsoft product again after hey refused to provide me support!
will shakespeare
· 3 years ago
im a huge apple fan but i unfortunatley cant see apple keeping up their ipod domination unless they come up with more inspiring features outwith more battery time etc.
microsoft skeptic
· 3 years ago
As much as I kinda hate Microsoft, I'm a techie nerd and was really looking forward to something new. I love my IPod, but new is hot. I read in another review however, that there are no smart playlists. That alone will keep me from even considering the Zune. The screen is beautiful though, if it weren't for that playlist issue, I might really be tempted.
Anyway, reading your review and realizing I can't play my Itunes songs gives me another huge reason to avoid it (and reminds so much of why no matter how much you try to be open minded about MS, their propreitary crap will always screw you). What are we supposed to do with all those songs?
joe
· 3 years ago
it is compatible with mac
codejockey
· 3 years ago
Microsoft is not a stupid company - most of their moves are carefully calculated, and I think the iniaial launch of the Zune is really just throwing a flare to give Apple a false confidence for a bit before Microsoft engages their long term strategy.
Will they lose the short term game? Sure. iPod has a ton of momentum that would be hard to challenge for any device (even if it was superior on all accounts). In the next year or two, iPod will continue to outsell Zune, there's no way around that.
The thing is, my gut says Microsoft is making a long term play at carving out a new industry and market. They ignored podcasts because they are realistically not the focus of the device - a portable media player, and I believe they only support DRM because if they didn't (and allowed sharing songs without protection), they would be buried in lawsuits and public scrutiny. I believe out of the box they can't allow this, but now to my real point...
I am a professional software developer and what is the key selling point for me? It's essentially a Pocket PC platform (or some flavor thereof) meaning I can extend, hack and modify the device given enough time and research. I think we'll be looking at a fully functional device over Wi-Fi, ways to override the DRM sharing limitations and really extending the device. All of these "limitation" or "wouldn't it be great if" features will be answered. I have NO doubt I could write a piece of software to record from the FM tuner, it's just a matter of figuring out the device. Could I do that on an iPod? Not a chance in hell - not without risking destroying the device.
Even furthermore, if Microsoft releases a Zune SDK (removing the need to even GUESS about how to work with the device or OS), I think iPod is in serious trouble. I found XBox (the first one) appealing because I was able to swap out hard drives, rig up a PC keyboard and mouse to work with it, and even write software for the XBox given the SDK. To take it back even further, The Sega Dreamcast had the same flexibility running Windows CE. The fact that hardware devices that are based on windows, a common, well known, and extendible platform really makes any Microsoft device appealing. It gives the potential to really extend the device if you are savvy - granted I'm not the norm, but who is to say there won't be 3rd party developers and software companies writing that killer app for Zune? It's definitely something to think about - I think they are opening a door that could really put iPod in a bind in the next 5 years. Sure, music and video iPod may have an edge, but what about the ability to use the WiFi on your Zune to control your Media Center PC? Streaming audio/video FROM your media center PC over the internet using the WiFi? The possibilites are endless and I think we will see some impressive stuff out of the platform.
You couldn't even think about that on iPod.
All said and done, I don't think Microsoft cares about DRM or intentionally limited the integration with WiFi or any feature thereof - I think they had a release date to get the product to market, cut bait on the nice to haves and wanted to get the device released for the 06 holiday season. I think over the next year, we will see Microsoft play some cards that will turn heads and nobody would have expected. If not - I can honestly say I would be dissappointed with Microsoft and that they are definitely losing their edge as an innovative company.
I just don't think we've seen the entire hand, and that's how they want it for now. Enter the marketplace under the radar and then move in for the kill by opening the door for Micro ISV's to write a killer app for this type of device.
To date, every portable media player has been 100% proprietary (some custom linux flavor, etc). All Microsoft has to do is be willing to open up the architecture and they have the total advantage.
Tiger Hunter
· 3 years ago
Zune has a larger screen for videos..now dont tell me we dont need a larger video screen..thats why i have ordered a zune even though i have an ipod
Nate
· 3 years ago
I'm not big in the portable music player business. I've owned a simple 128MB RCA flash player for a couple years now and it’s more than sufficient for when I go out for sports or recreation. However, once I heard about Zune's "social" capabilities, I decided to look into it.
First off, I’m big in the whole WiFi scene. It's _the_ thing since sliced bread, it's the future. When I heard Zune had support for it, I thought "wow, this could be really good". Then I watched the video and found out its sole purpose is to send a file to a specific device, which must also accept the transmission. What a total waste! Imagine being able to broadcast live what you're listening to or broadcast your playlist for other Zune devices to "channel in" and listen. Or why not make it easy and just flag a playlist for sharing so other Zuner's can sample. To go through all the effort on the wireless front to just shun its potential really irks me. It's about as social as a cell phone with stickers on it.
I think they had the right idea, but they executed it wrong. Most of the issues could be corrected in software, but I somehow get the feeling that the direction they took also enforced limitations on their hardware, especially with the lack of a mic-in jack for recording (karaoke fans anyone?). Oh well, I guess I'm still stuck with my RCA =)
zune man 224
· 3 years ago
While the zune does have features about that dont shock me, i really do like it much more than the i pod. I believe that people who are used to i pods grow very attached to them and find anything else nowhere near as good. I myself have bought a zune and very much enjoy the devices thechnology.I believe that by next year not only will microsoft have come out with better technology for the zune, but also that it will complete surpass the technology of the ipod.I also do believe that everyone can expect to see new zune devices in the market very soon.
bg
· 3 years ago
The whole reason the ipod appeals much higher than other mp3's is because that's what got the market moving and now the majority of people have them and its the must have mp3. But i think were afraid to try something new, and why not the zune when it has nearly all the same features as the ipod and some added. The zune also has a bigger video screen and you can change your background. The only cocern i have with zune is how will their musicstore fillout. Oh yea, white headphones are not a conversation starter,showing your individuality in your backround and sending songs of meaning to your friends will spark tons of more conversations. (plus a white zune comes with white headphones)................Duh,Duh,Duh
John
· 3 years ago
Just a quick non technical comment. We were purchasing for my 12 year old daughter. I fought with myself over IPOD and ZUNE because I know all the kids want the IPOD. Our daughter requested a 5th generation IPOD. She wanted and MP3 player with a video player. I got the device that I felt matched that description best. It was an easy choice for us - we got the ZUNE - because of the larger screen and built in FM radio tuner. It is Christmas day - we thought we would have a huge dissapointment in the house because we did not get the IPOD. We were wrong. We explained why we got the ZUNE instead of the IPOD to our suprise she was fine with it and she loves her ZUNE. We are not into blogging etc. I think Microsoft & Toshiba made the superior product for what we needed. I guess for blogging etc. there is no choice here, but we don't blog. My daughter can get into all of that stuff later. For now she can just enjoy here music, pictures and videos on a great piece of equipment which has potential written all over it.
Shell
· 2 years ago
I totally think the ZUNE is better for sure!! I got one for my 10yr old and she absolutley loves it. It has a larger screen, has a FM radio, and the casing is not going to get all scratched up like the ipod it seems to be very durabe and scratch resistant. The ZUNE software is very easy to use...you get a CD that comes with your ZUNE to install on your computer...you do not have to go on to the internet to download it.
Shell
· 2 years ago
Oh yeah and its wireless capabilities and ability to share files with your friends ZUNE is cool too!!
Pker4lifeo0
· 2 years ago
Why Buy An Ipod Nano Thats 200$. If You Want A Mp3 Player That Just Plays Songs.. Buy A Cheap One. There Is No Need For Zune To Make Smaller Versions.
Okay Now That That's Out Of The Way..Ipod Sucks Is What I Have To Say. I Have Both THe Ipod 30g(black) And A Zune(black) The Zune Has All The Same Features As Ipod Plus More. WHY Buy An Ipod. No Reason. But Itunes Are A Lot Better Blah Blah Blah. Nobody Even Uses Itunes. Most People Get There Music And Vids From P2P Networks Like Limewire. Zunes Own All. Get Yalls Heads Out Of Apples Ass Little Apple Crybabies. Get Out Of The Apple Box That Your In And Actually Try The Zune!!
jatt4life
· 2 years ago
Zune totally beats Zune.
Luke779865
· 2 years ago
I have 2 IPOD nanos and a Zune in my home. The Zune was much more intuitive to set up and the Zune marketplace is easier to use. Also my Zune automatically downloads track info and album covers right out of the box. The itunes didn't. It has to be told to. Also, the subscription service is awesome! I used the Zune software on my 60 inch LCD and played music all night long on New Years Eve. It was like having a jukebox with 2 million songs on it. All my guests had to do is type in a song, artist or album title and wait a few seconds for a download and they had whatever song they wanted. I am definitely sold on the Zune.
whDsud3X8V
· 2 years ago
Hi! Very nice site! Thanks you very much! uxqQBQCKiLhC5S
Michiel
· 2 years ago
"My thoughts about Zune vs. iPod"
My thoughts: there is no 'versus'. iPod wins by default.
ps. I came to this page because I was looking for support info for a friend who has a borked Zune (songs upload but magically disappear), ha ha ha.
Jon
· 2 years ago
Also the Zune can not display other languages, such as Japanese
Simm
· 2 years ago
I am strugling wether to buy an ipod or a Zune. Please help. There are so many different comments here and i dont know which one to buy.
Punyan
· 2 years ago
@simm, thats exactly my problem. I like the Zune design definately better, but I'm afraid if its not going to be a success, Microsoft wont make much efforts to improve it. I will buy the Zune if: 1. synchronizing works better than with the Ipod 2. market place will offer somthing like podcasts 3. there is software to put music from napster and that kinda programs on it.
Can anybody answer these questions?
Zune
· 2 years ago
@Punyan
I do know MS had registered a ton of Zunecast (.com/net/org etc. etc.) domain names long before they even announced the Zune; which is usually a strong indicator of future plans from them.
I can tell you I don't have any Problems synchronizing but I have heard others complain that it was slightly complex for them. But I feel it may have more to do with lack of familiarity and less with difficulty. IMHO
Best wishes, Kim
Scott L
· 2 years ago
Robert, I found it interesting that you didn't comment on one of quality of the main purpose of the Zune: sound.
I own a Zune and the video ipod. I have listened to the exact same song on both devices and the iPod sound quality is superior. However the radio feaure on the Zune and its User interface is as good if not better than Apple's in many respects.
At the end of the day you need to get the sound quality right. Everything else is secondary.
Dodge Peters
· 2 years ago
I got a Zune for Christmas. I initially wanted an iPod. iPod has the market cornered right now. I love my Zune, but that could be because I have never owned an iPod. I was expecting more features right out of the box but I'm also very content with what I have. I'm frustrated by a few things like; how do I get my Ratings from my Zune to my Library without duplicating the song in my Library and how come when I have my Zune in shuffle mode, turn it off then turn it back on and not be in the same place on the playlist?
I have yet to find anyone being Social, everytime I scan for other Zunes I don't find any.. I'm okay with that though.
The sound quality is okay. I did notice that I took a Zune and a PSP and compared the sound quality and the PSP sounded better, hands down.
I also noticed, and I'm not sure if the iPod does this, when hooked to an external speaker system it seems that if too much "power" is transmitted between the speakers and the headphone jack on the Zune, the Zune will freeze and have to be rebooted.
Synching was easy, was I understood it, I don't read manuals. Having the album info and art update automatically is a great feature.
I like the Zune, I wish I had more space, 30 gigs is just not enough, especially since I have over 10 thousand songs from my CD library alone that I burned to mp3.
But Okay.. I'm done.. lol
Jack
· 2 years ago
ZUNE IS GNARLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPOINTED IN IT!!! IPOD IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I own an iPod as well, and well....it sucks compared to the new Zune.)
Ron
· 2 years ago
I dont know what its like in other areas, but the zune is a big hit where i live. I hate the argument of conversationallity, the white headphones are so old that no one even notices any more. there is no culture for ipod owners, they've become the old man of the industry. these days, its all about the chrome plate headphones ;). And eveyone i know LOVES the look, its totally retro and totally awesome. plenty of memory (holds a ton more video than an ipod) and once you get used to the interface, its really sleek and easy to use... as for all the other problems people continue to list (no video sharing, no podcast support etc.), i've got 2 words for ya... Firmware Updates :P
Kyle Poole
· 2 years ago
I think that the Zune sounds awesome, it has amazing usage, and the WiFi and radio really turn me on, but what I like most is the screen! I was just wondering, is it compatible with normal videos, like if I had some videos I got off of, say, LimeWire, and I wanted to put it on there, would the DRM or whatever its called stop me? Thanks.
Tedd
· 2 years ago
My zune is awesome! yeah, the zune does freeze, but the ipod does also. my sis has one, and i play around with it sometimes. Also, i found some DVD converters for zunes and ipods at cucusoft.com. my dad has an ipod also, and he played with my zune, and commented that the zune is much simpler to use than his ipod.
Tedd
· 2 years ago
one last thing, the ipod is much slower with syncing music, pics, movies and stuff than zunes. trust me, i live with two ipod owners.
Josh
· 2 years ago
see, in my school, everyone does have ipod, with minimal exceptions of a few creatives. and if i came into school with a brown stylish zune, that NO ONE will have because im in the uk, that is what will be considered cool. being a sheep isnt cool. being different is. your putting everything from an assuming ipod owning, or ex users point of view, well i dont have one, never have, so i dont care about itunes music, podcasts will work on a zune depending on the format and were you get it, just wont be in a podcast section. its PODcast, not ZUNEcast, microsoft wont be advertising it because it was made for iPODS! if your going to point out some bad points about the zune, maybe try the battery life? but the software for the zune, and the fact it DOESNT have that fuck annoying, in accurate scroll wheel are good things!
Stephen K
· 2 years ago
Hey guys,
I've got more pictures confirming the existence of a Razer Protype playing with a MS Zune. Check out these pics of the Zune charging in a Protype. Maybe Razer plans to make that ipod dock with more than just one MP3 player…?
i really wouldnt like any windblows crap,hardware or software, on any of my anything
now the stupid music sharing thing... WTF you get to play it three times in three days and then microsoft makes you buy it....
and you cant even use any itunes, napster or limewire music with it its pretty.... retarded
Tedd
· 2 years ago
that's what the zune marketplace is for, retard. plus, the marketplace has a way better deal than itunes' gay $1 a song crap. marketplace lets you pay 15 bucks a month, and get unlimited song downloads without having to pay for them. and you still want to use itunes?
Leah
· 2 years ago
I'll stick with the zune. I'm buying one soon because I'm searching for something "Better" than the ipod my sister has is. I think I'll sound pretty convincing to her because:
true, the zune has limited wi fi, but what does the ipod have?
The bigger screen is definitely a winner for me.
The screen is more scratch-resistant.
The unlimited song download deal
Leah
· 2 years ago
I'll stick with the zune. I'm buying one soon because I'm searching for something "Better" than the ipod my sister has is. I think I'll sound pretty convincing to her because:
true, the zune has limited wi fi, but what does the ipod have?
The bigger screen is definitely a winner for me.
The screen is more scratch-resistant.
The unlimited song download deal
The better price
And finally, this is just the first generation. Does the ipod shuffle even compare to this?
-But, then again I'm only 14. What do you decide?
Pwnz_You
· 2 years ago
I would just like to say this is one of the most biased reviews I have seen in a while. And It shouldnt even be published. I've owned 3 types of iPods and I now own a zune and I would have to say that the zune has just prooved better in general for me.
shortee
· 2 years ago
ok so its better for a Zune then an iPod? I'm gettin one for X-mas im 13 and my mom wants to know which one is better so can i have some suggestions?
daniel
· 2 years ago
first off, i have a zune, i like it. I think having one is kinda like "going against the man" Most of the time people come over and ask me about mine when im using it. The whole, not falling into the standard ipod fram of mind. Plus, people keep getting upset cause they can't find videos that they can put on their zune. i just have to say that they, are idiotic and computer illiterate. I have tons of videos on my zune that came from youtube and other places. you just have to know how to work the system. convert formats people. there are millions of easy and *FREE-Ware* to do it. so take some control over ur video issues and convert some vids.
Jacob
· 2 years ago
First off have any of these idiots who relly believe the crappy ipod is better than the Zune owned a Zune!!!!!!?The people who find the need to like the ipod more Are Just Mad That Thry wasted 250$ on an ipod w/o a warranty!!!!!
Haley
· 2 years ago
I think that Zunes are the better product and they cost alot less than Ipods. Everyone says that Ipods are better because they have been out for a longer period of time.
Haley
· 2 years ago
WHO EVER THINKS IPODS ARE BETTER THATN ZUNES YOUR IDIOTS. BECAUSE ZUNES ARE WAY BETTER. MOST PEOPLE JUST LIKE IPODS BECAUSE HOW YOU TURN UP THE VOLUME!!!!!
Commentator
· 2 years ago
Unfortunately the Zune cannot download television shows and such without breaking your back to get it happening (this including installing loads of software the zune doesn't come with)! Zunes are basically a let down to me because hardly anyone has or has heard of them. This makes it difficult to trade songs.
Quintin
· 2 years ago
Zune are the bom especialy if you like halo you should buy a halo version (sold at gamestop) so you should get the Zune
Jim
· 2 years ago
you can say wutever u want but the bottom line is that ipods suck. the shuffle is durable but has no screen. the nano's screen is much too small. the video ipods suck because of the battery life, they scratch really easily, and theyre 2 heavy 2 carry in ur pocket. also, itunes sucks. im just gonna buy a zune because it cant be any worse than an ipod
Q
· 2 years ago
Wow, Zune all the way, Bill Gates is the one that perfected the computer, Its just the beginning, you cant expect that Zune doesn't have anything up there sleeve. Trust Microsoft, without microsoft, apple wouldn't even be here. And dont say microsoft copied apple. You seriously think Microsoft wouldn't of thought of it, or eventually thought of it? I guarentee in the next 3 years(when Zune is on there feet) It will be more popular than the Ipod. Also, do you evr see computer professionals EVER using macs? No they are always usin windows powered computer, Not macintosh(tell u sumthing?). Well it should, in the end, Microsoft is MUCH better than Apple
Donna
· 2 years ago
I bought a 2 yr service contract for my IPOD Mini. Apple refuses to honor it and has basically ripped me a new rear to the tune off $200+. I've ordered a Zune to replace it. Is it truly impossible to transfer 400+ downloads from ITUNES to the Zune once I get it???? Most of you are way more tech savy than me. I can't believe that you can steal music but can't transfer purchased music from one MP3 to another.
jake
· 2 years ago
from the reviews i have read the zune and i-pod sound equal. i own an i-pod nano. i have it full and the screeen is broken. i am looking for a new music player. the only reasons i am going for the zune us the bigger screeen, radio, and less fragile. but i found a sweet deal for a video i-pod for 180 bucks. if you have a lot of music from itunes then get an ipod. i do not have a lot of music from itunes. i only have about 30 or so songs. most of my songs are from cds. i dont listen to podcasts and i am not a video freak. i am straight forward music junky. there is only one video that i would put on it and it is one that i made. i am just looking for the device that is less complicated. the touch wheel is annoying and the ipod is to fragile. i am a rough kid and the zune is more durable. i think a made my decision. the zune. i might get the ipod since i can get for fourty dollars cheeper but i dought it. bottom line. if you download a lot of music and you dont rough around. get an ipod. if you have a large cd collection and you run around a lot get a zune.
Matthew
· 2 years ago
i havent looked into the zune yet, but i do like how the 30-gb zune is available for the same price as a 4-gb ipod nano. dont get me wrong--i love the ipod nano. but i think the large capacity at the lower price is very competitive.
Quinlan
· 2 years ago
We all know the Zune isn't as good as the iPod YET! The Zune has a lot of potential. When they make the next Zune it'll be a lot better, and will hopefully be able to combat the iPod, or at least pose a threat.
Besides, iPod is too popular. I'd rather do something against the crowd than with it. So I can't wait to (probably) get a Zune (still doing research).
Zachary
· 2 years ago
It is obvious that the zune IS NOT on the same level as the ipod, but i would guess in the near future the zune will surpass the ipod. I currently own a zune and i had an ipod before it. ONE THING MOST PEOPLE WHO HAVE OWNED IPODS FAIL TO TELL ANYBODY is that IPODS HAVE A RESTRICTED CHARGE AMOUNT ON THEM, SO THEY PRETTY MUCH KILL THEMSELVES IN ABOUT A YEAR, and that SUCKS. The zune does not do that, which i like very much, i dont wanna funnel out $250 a year just to have good portable music. The zune software is also much better then itunes, it has subscription options to where YOU CAN BUY UNLIMITED SONGS for only 14.99 a month usd, so for the price of an average cd on itunes, you can get unlimited downloads for a month on zune software.
Overall while the ipod may be better now, the zune will surpass it soon once people realize what is going on.
Headphoneguy
· 2 years ago
As for the podcast thing: I currently have an ipod, and use Winamp to sync it However, for podcasting, i still have to use itunes
Its the same for the zune, you CAN (figuratavly speaking) add podcasts to your zune, but it wont appear in a podcast area (You could make a podcast PL tho...
CantTouchthis
· 2 years ago
iPod Touch r u kidding me look at it
Zune is trying to compete with the gen 5 ipod now this
zune is done
or for more space get the 160 gig iPod Classic
Epoc
· 2 years ago
I have a zune and I love it. One of my friends also bought a zune and we used the wi-fi, no big deal. Then my same friend found a video ipod on the ground. he got everything he needed for it, tried to use it and got angry he came in to school and said that he hated i-tunes and that the zune software is so much simpler to use. also, the updates make it very cool because when apple adds new features to the ipod, you have to go out and spend a couple hundred dollars on a new one while with zune, you can get updates to enhace the expiriance. perhaps games will be on the way (if not, that's NOT why I bought my zune, it was for music and video) but ms is working on the zune. And also again, who cares about the color of your music device!? and if that's what you're looking for, zune has plenty of colors. even some unusual colors that show that you are't an ipoder. also more duable and while walking with it just in your pants pocket and if they're baggy, you know you have it unlike the ipod nano's. Zune: not winner yet, but soon. once the word is spread around...
Salil
· 2 years ago
You guys are stupid, I use torrents and limewire, so why do I need itunes? I use windows/ PC so I'm going with the zune
Caboose
· 2 years ago
1. The Zune 2 product line will have podcasts and smaller sizes for the people that like smaller mp3 players. and an 80gb one. Oh and for the people that like the circle movement that the iPod uses be HAPPY because Zune 2's have that too.
Mundi
· 2 years ago
One thing that wasn't mentioned is the price!!! >:( Zune: 30 GB - $300
iPod: 8 GB - $300
!!!!!
Evan Gretok
· 2 years ago
Okay, clearly there have been changes to the zune since you wrote this. I just want to point out a few things. 1: The zune's 3-inch screen is awesome. 2: The controls take only about 30 seconds to master. 3: It includes EVERYTHING you need. You have to buy iTunes separatly for iPod (i don't like Apple's way of doing this) 4: It now has smaller flash models and a higher capacity model with touch controls. 5: Ever since the original release, updates have allowed it to work with more formats. 6: There are a few more color options (i know it isn't that important but...) Granted Apple was first at this market, and has been the greatest since then. But, in my opinion (and this may be affected by the fact that the only iPod i ever had anything to do with never worked), its time for the zune to take the throne. Of course the player you buy really depends on what you want. Apple fanboys will always love the iPod. But the time of the zune is coming, and it showed an extreme amount of improvement since its launch, and it'll get even better. I have nothing against the iPod, i just love the zune.
kevin
· 2 years ago
i believe that in about 5 years the zune will definately be the superior mp3 player over ipod. How many generations of the ipod has apple gone through? 6? the zune is about to be in its second generation. No wonder it seems so inferior. Once microsoft improves the product line, makes better use of the wifi feature, and makes better design decisions everyone will want it.
zune
· 2 years ago
It very hard for me to read all about zune
bobo bobobo
· 2 years ago
i have decided to buy and ipod!
Sleepy Almond
· 2 years ago
I own an iPod touch... The Wi-Fi is fast but there is no Flash or Java yet... If the Zune uses Explorer browser then it will be able to run Flash and(?) Java... So far I'm content with my iPod... But I'm still waiting for the Flash... Steve Jobs announced that there wont be any Java on iPod touch... Maybe Flash...
i dont know what podcast is or DRMs is but the zune kicks the poo out of the ipod....why do people make them seem so difficult.with all these big words when there comparing them...its a f****** square wit music in it..thats all u need to know..... all i know is that the zune has a big colored screen and u can put pictures as ur backround and it has a radio so its better thats all that matters...peace
Mikey
· 1 year ago
Okay im a teenager, and i will say that having an Ipod isn't as much of a big deal anymore seeing as a lot of kids can't afford one. On that note though,I've had both a Zune and an Ipod, and out of bolth, i kept the Ipod. Why? Because of the little things, one the Ipod is smaller and holds less, this may not seem like a big issue, but it is since most people stick thier media player in their pocket. another one is i love itunes. You can basicaly find anything you want on there. Movies, your favorite tv shows, and music videos. Third would be it works on windows and mac, which is good because everybody i know has a different computer. There's more products from third parties out there for ipods. and finally Its and easy to use product without complications. Your ipod freezes up you push 2 buttons, and voila its fixed.
Psp Game Download Services Rev
· 1 year ago
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Psp Blender Review
· 1 year ago
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Navneet
· 1 year ago
Hi Guys. I have used both the Zune and the iPod (Classic and Shuffle) Zune sucks. Its Zune software on the PC is a pain. Compare that to iTunes - really no effort required for doing even new stuff.
Actual Zune interface is also tacky. But that may be because iPods controls are revolutionary. But patented interface or otherwise, Zune did come out after iPod had been released for a substantial time. Microsoft had experienced the quality of the product that was in the market. Is this the best that they could do?
iPod Repair
· 1 year ago
Good article. I love to download music for my iPod; one of the best gadgets I have.
Elena Wasnak
· 6 months ago
Here's the deal: Microsoft doesn't always have the best track record when it comes to quality products. I don't even have an iPod but I would splurge on one before I bought the Zune. If I'm going to lay down the cash I need to know it's going to last me and the and that the hardware and software will be dependable.
Besides. Microsoft will never be able to appeal to the same market Apple does. No contest.
All Comments
Also not mentioned so much is the experience of buying or copying music to the Zune. Will their version of ITunes be easy? Will it just work? Or will it be a drawn out process (see the comparison videos at 37 Signals for an example....
Yours Sincerely
David Feldt
This first version of Zune is a Toshiba Gigabeat + wifi + slicker UI (and the Gigabeat is using Portable Media Center 2.0 UI, which is already slick in its own right). I have an iPod, but I've regarded the Gigabeat as the best all-around portable digital player; that is, until the Zune. This first Zune's successors will be the ones that Apple might have to worry about (those will likely have the podcast support; and the aftermarket products will be more established (it's being established even as we speak)). As it is, all of the other players do have to be concerned with the Zune, even if Apple isn't.
Now, regarding the "kid's view". You're obviously rich, to have your kid trading $300 dollar gadgets with other kids without the first care in the world as to whether they get lost, stolen, broken, et. In my neighborhood, nobody "trades iPods". Those that have them guard them. They don't have the money to replace them if something goes awry in such trades. But Apple has always appealed to the rich, so maybe they do have a stronger hold in that segment of the populace.
And why would "white earphones" be a conversation starter? Not in my experience. If it is, what color are the earphones of the white Zune? If it's white, does that nullify that particular "advantage"? ;-)
I'm interested in build quality too. The increasing reports on message boards regarding people going to two or three iPods in 24 months is worrisome. If Zune has better build quality (and that'll be up to Toshiba), then that's a big advantage right there.
PS - Whatever happened to the PMCs? Wow...that's disappeared faster than anything. All the rage for Microsoft at CES, and gone in 60 seconds.
Does it really matter?? WOuld you or 99% of the ipod crowd bought it if it was not compatible with a PC/windows -->>> NONONONONO.
I am sure the marketing guys at microsoft are intelligent enough to make it compatible if Mac continues to grow.And it will appeal even more to 85% of the office crowd using MSoffice in their work place where they have no permission to install itunes. Zune will be integrated in wmp. A HUGE advantage.
>>Kids point of view
Frankly its not the kids point of view. Its your point of view. He gets an ipod coz you allow that. Another parent having a PC might be more inclined to buy a zune seeing a microsoft logo there. And yes kids love gadgets that can integrate with xbox.
Read somewhere that microsoft is going to make its point system ubiquitous. You play games or share movies and you earn points. Use that to buy song. Now that is cool as well for gamers and Kids.
>>The Zune team didn’t show us the OOBE (Out Of Box Experience
Well you no longer work for microsoft. And even if you had, the zune team might have had some restrictions on leaking out the features. This is hardly a reason to worry about at this stage. Wait for some more time.
>>But, for now, I’d stick with an iPod.
You have too. Even if you wish there it is not for sale :)
>>The Zune has a wifi antenna. Can I use it to download music without hooking up to a computer? No.
Again it depends on the demand. If more ppl want that feature, it should be easy to implement. Sell a wifi reciever, update the software and it should work seemlessly.
>>Zune doesn’t have a microphone.
Nor does the ipod have. Atleast my shuffle has none (btw i got the shuffle free..otherwise i might have
got something cheap that fits a students pocket).
>>Zune doesn’t have a podcast client.
>>Zune doesn’t have a way to subscribe to Rocketboom or ZeFrank or any other videoblog.
Guess you are confused here. A podcast client and a way to subscribe are in no way RELATED TO ZUNE. ZUNE is the HARDWARE. These are SOFTWARE. All microsoft needs to do is a software update. And yes, they need not be in hurry as 99% of teh ppl using computers have not heard podcast (and/or) not used it yet like me!!
However I think the some interesting features are going to come in as updates. After some time when a few thousands Zune are sold and all the minor glitches worked out, that’s when we will see the upgrades.
I don’t think the form factor of the G1 Zune has mush role at this stage. In case the form factor really becomes a problem MS can easily introduce a new Zune with different design. Over a period of time it will be worked out.
Sometimes I think the missing features in Zune can also be a sort of marketing strategy. Let the device go out with a couple of features missing and add it within a couple of days of release to garner attention. I am sure adding support for podcast will not be that difficult through an update.
As for voice recording I don’t expect this to be added. Nor games. They will like to stay with the music and introducing those at this stage takes away from the main message.
Finally all will hang upon the updates. That gives them a huge advantage. They can basically introduce any features which they think people are missing the most. In other words the product can evolve.
However I am wondering if anyone sees any features in Zune which are not there, but are present in iPod(except for podcast)?
Rohit
PS : Maybe theory of 3G product with MS still holds....
Probably what's going on here, is that podtech.net feels left behind by the lack of this feature on the Zune.
If podcasting was as cool as they say, that feature would have been there since the first version :)
$0.02
Actually i know some kids listening to major nelsons podcast. IF there are gonna listen to some podcast from SUN ceo or google or MS programmers, there is some big problem.. This is not the age to worry to much about technology. Rather play and have fun
i mean windows media player, common should that sync instead of the zune marketplace..
thats pretty lame.
wifi thats pretty lame.. if i cant use it so stream or sync music with...
whats the point then... i am not gonna share songs with some one alone...
maybe its true.. we wait for version 3.
I also fail to see why you think having or wanting to update your music player often is a good thing. And for the tweaking-inclined ipod owners there are replacement firmware/OS solutions0 like Rockbox: http://www.rockbox.org/
In fact, I bet they will be running on the Zune in no time, and hackers (in the good sense of the word. Stupid media) like them might open the Zune's rather crippled wifi to its full potential. Because this p2p 3xplay stuff is really rather lame.
I'm still getting massive use out of my 40 Gb non-video non-colour screen ipod that I bought some 2-odd years ago. To be fair, I did replace the battery recently with a fresh heavy-duty one. If it were to break down right now, I'd probably buy another ipod; I'd have a hard time choosing between the rather sleek and light 8 Gb nano or the fat 80 Gb ipod for the packrat in me.
"But let’s look deeper. The Zune has a wifi antenna. Can I use it to download music without hooking up to a computer? No."
I agree, that would make that killer feature much more "killer". How about throwing a browser on the Zune too? Then work with Verizon and get a MP3/phone combo that Apple is possibly working on.
"Does it work with a Macintosh? No."
Not really a deal breaker at this point. You are going to have a hard time convincing any self respecting Mac user to give up their Steve Jobs goodness. So why even try in that market out of the gate? And MS really only cares about numbers. 3% doesn't amount to much.
"Does it free me from DRM? No."
Neither does the iPod, so I don't see why this is even mentioned. I hate DRM myself, but no player is going to free us from DRM. Only the big, bag record labels can.
"Can I use my iPod music on it that I’ve purchased on iTunes? No."
You know better. Since the iPod is an "accepted" closed system, everyone thinks that this is an advantage. But the iTunes purchased music is all DRM'ed, so I couldn't imagine this any other way. And with a big player like MS entering the market, any chance of Apple opening up their DRM to competitors is now nil.
"Can I record off of the FM tuner? No."
Agreed. Hopefully this will be one of the upgraded features. Given their experience with MCE, I would imagine we will see it at sometime.
MARKETING
The marketing I have seen has been pretty good, and is innovative in a viral sort of way. Remember something about the iPod marketing. Apple wants us all to "think different", however, how are we all thinking different when we all have the same device? I think that in the teen/college aged sector, there are still plenty of people out there that are anit-cool, whereas they don't like those things that everyone else thinks are cool. If MS taps in to this marketing niche, I think they can find some success in the market.
In any case, MS has already stated that they are in this for the long haul, and don't expect (and shouldn't) to win it overnight. Strong second is what they hope for, and with an expanded product line, downloadable features, and what I am going to assume some sort of hackability, they should be able to do it.
> to Windows. Which one ended up with more market
> share? The ones that the developers could extend
> the easiest.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Microsoft wound up with marketshare to competition (hardware) and a lack of competition (operating system) caused by Microsoft's manipulative processes.
Because there were lots of PC compatible box manufacturers all making the same product they competed on price driving costs down. To Apple's view, there was no competition and therefore no need to keep price down. Apple guessed wrong and people chose low cost computers over high priced computers.
But that doesn't mean buyers chose Windows - that's just what came installed on the box they bought. Lots of us formatted the drive and installed the OS we really wanted. This double charge for an OS eventually gave Microsoft the upper hand and their competitors were driven out of the market.
But don't make the mistake of thinking we chose Windows or that the PC platform won because it was superior. If superiority were the issue we'd all be using systems based on IBM's PS/2 computers.
I have a shuffle that made it through the hot water wash and the very hot regular dry cycle inside my cargo pants. I would be far too afraid to re-create the same scenario for the Nano or Zune. I like many others have the shuffle for hard use and the Nano, iPod’s are reserved for cool town casual stuff.
I believe the Zune will become your “Fathers Oldsmobile”. Pre-loaded with Lasik commercials. The smaller screen on the Nano is somewhat of a litmus test, don’t trust anyone over 40 deal. Check this out on my Nano ... hang on I have to get my reading glasses.
Multiply the error times 10 and see if the size has a big impact. The same logic applies to all error analysis.
Bigger was bad-er. I; would also stick to the iPod.
Even if YT wins it will be by a very small margin. But the market trend didnt quite obey that.
If feature based scientific comparison was the way to predict markets and trends we wouldnt have failed products
This REALLY would be an advantage, imagine being able to get music anywhere, I am sure microsoft could quite easily implement some kind of browser technology to enable end users to be able to do this, lets face it there are web browsers compact enough to run on a pocket pc or a mobile phone, if you were able to download via WI-FI with no PC needed I would probably not think twice about getting one of these.
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It is a shame to see that this is yet another device that does not free the user from DRM, however if people would only purchase their stuff legally then maybe there would be no need for DRM in the first place.
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Updateability: better than iPod (if I were Apple I’d worry about this). I Agree 110% this has to be a distinct advantage for Microsoft.
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Shame that it does not work with a mac, though I would have to say this does not cause any problems for me as I use my mac only for design work and photo editing and my PC for everything else, but I can kind of appreciate the need for cross platform support.
Like you said market share changes in music playing/purchasing platforms will likely depend on youthful customers - Microsoft faces an uphill struggle due to Apple's marketing genius and reasonably decent hardware and software engineering.
Also, I don't think podcast support is quite so important - if anything, video is the cool hip thing at the moment (hence youtube's success). Of all the people I know who have ipods, only a very small percentage listen to podcasts. And Microsoft can easily fix the issue in future firmware versions.
At the end, there will be over 3 versions of this Zune device…. and I’m sure ipod will release some version of the ipod with wifi connectivity if the time becomes that you download music directly to your zune … that is not too hard to implement… I may say this antenna for ipod may be plugable and sold like any other ipod plug in.
Besides… as usual, some crazy guy with nothing important to do will figure out a way to install a linux kernel on the Zune…
This is so typical that honestly I don’t feel any excitement about the launch of this player.
"This man is very close to to destroying Sony’s Playstation."
Ha, ha, ha!!! Sony can screw itself and sit on its ass and the PS2 still outsells both the XBox and the XBox 360 combined currently. The XBox 360 is selling SLOWER than the first XBox. Destroying Sony indeed.
Well, you will have to put that money on, once, twice, thrice, again, again and again, never-ending really. The Microsoft Beta Test Ecosystem Defense Fund. And Sony, even given it's trainwreck-level massive problems, still has a worldwide PS3 footprint marketshare that will vault them to the top, in terms of raw numbers. In fact, they already outsell Xbox and Xbox 360 combined, that with a 6 year old VGS.
If you started, and bet on Win CE/Pocket PC from the get-go, you would have had to buy 6 devices, sometimes much more depending on the OEM you chose, per various firmware and chipset upgrade issues.
Expect the Early Adopters, the MVP and other freebie entitlement Webmasters and other Microsoft Mobius-leeches like that, to go bonkers. Everyone else, wait 2-3 years before you even start to pay attention.
Apple has released iPod firmware updates for years. And since iTunes 7 has been released, everyone will be alerted of updates and be told to install them.
Example of updates to Apple firmware: addition of AAC support when the music store was introduced, addition of podcast support, Nike+iPod support, etc.
If Apple ever feels the need to match a software feature on the Zune, it will take a simple firmware update.
"Box design: good. As good as iPod."
This isn't very "Fundamental" or important to the success of the product. Just doing better than the horrible job MS usually does does not provide any advantage. It's nice to see, but rather insignificant. More important will be how it is displayed: Apple has its own stores and millions of users allowing anyone to sample an iPod. Microsoft will be behind a glass case in a box in WalMart.
"Look and feel and overall hardware quality: good. As good as iPod. I actually even liked the brown one a lot."
But you are missing size. On this type of device, the slightest difference is immensely noticeable. You can see this within the iPod community between generations. I know people who upgraded, not because of features, but because of size. Zune has a HUGE disadvantage here.
"Screen: better than iPod."
Debatable. Not much bigger, lower quality. And we only have one point of comparison. Apple has 3 devices: one with no screen, one with a small screen, one with an average screen. It is now the appropriate time to buy into rumors and expect a much larger and better screen than the Zune in the next 3 months, if not before the holiday.
"Hard drive size: worse than iPod."
Yes.
"Features: mixed bag, we’ll get into that below."
Yes, below.
"Price: in the right neighborhood."
But probably costly to MS without the proper scale at this time.
"Marketing: unknown, but Apple has set such a high bar that I doubt Microsoft can even get close."
True, but the "viral" campaigns have been pathetic and scattered. There does not appear to be a strong, focused marketing message. Will wait...
"Software experience: unknown."
Agreed. Why didn't you push any buttons on this? This is MS's "integrated" experience and the best we have is a screenshot of the library. That's it. If the software is so cool, so community focused, why has MS been unwilling to prime the hype pumps on this aspect?
"Updateability: better than iPod (if I were Apple I’d worry about this)."
Woah, woah, woah!!! This is absurd! Because Zune doesn't have the many, many features people expect and they say, "Well, we could add that in the future", you say it has better upgradability? Absurd! Apple Macs had been far ahead of PCs in terms of upgradable firmware, and the iPod has always had upgradable firmware. The rest of the market has upgradable firmware. You haven't seen the software, Zune hasn't been released (nevermind refreshed)... You can't claim it's more upgradable! The device will have its limitations as all hardware is by definition constrained in its software upgradability.
Maybe it can be said that Apple has a preference to not work on upgrading older models to drive adoption of new generations, but it can't be claimed that the Zune is more upgradable.
Hell, we've recently seen how even "renegade" companies like Archos have released "upgrades" which limit features. For all we know, Microsoft will have to impair its WiFi because of studio pressure. We can't just give them a star for claiming they may or may not add features in the future because they don't have them now and because they've discovered this thing that's existed for years called "upgradable firmware." Sorry, Scobie, but you are just sucking on the old teet on this one.
"Conversationality: (Does it cause a conversation). Here Apple wins with the white headphones hands down."
Apple wins here, hands down, agreed. But not because of white headphones. They win here because they have a clear, focused vision which is reflected in their products, advertising, strategy, etc...
"Integration: beats the iPod cause it works with Xbox."
What? Because it can stream (when connected by a wire) to a device owned by less than 20 million people it has an advantage in integration? What about 70% of US cars having iPod docks, what about 3000+ accessories, what about connecting any mp3 player to any home entertainment component. Sorry, ZERO advantage Microsoft.
Fundamentals you ignore:
Strategy confusion, abandonment: what about PFS devices and stores?
Media experience or music experience: Zune is primarily focused on music. What is, where is MS's strategy on TV, films, other video, podcasts, games, and personal information like notes, contacts, calendars? MS has had PMCs, Smartphones, the XBox, etc... for years, yet they ignored these other personal media experiences in the Zune. Why?
A Family of Products: How do you get WiFi in a Nano? How do you tout that bigger screen in a shuffle-like device? How do you hit every price point selling a rebranded third-party product with very low volumes?
The full ecosystem: MS can catch up here, but their strategy seems to be give the higher margins to the retailers but put the risk on them (inventories, advertising, etc...). Apple may not be every retailers friend, but the advertising happens on its own without work, and even if margins are lower, the inventories fly off the shelf. Likewise, MS's strategy seems to be to provide many of these accessories themselves. Apple does so as well, but not as broadly -- kitschier products, smaller niche products, higher end items. How does MS get the ecosystem if they are providing most of the accessories themselves? How does MS attract the truly significant partners like Nike when they will have a much, much smaller share of the market?
So... Not only does the iPod have 3000+ accessories, docks on 70% of all new cars, integration with both the Mac and PC platform (can I "integrate" Zune with a Mac?), but they will also have the same home integration at a higher level of functionality and probably greater ease of use with (the same or nearly) as many users.
The Edge Case.
Firstly, I agree the Zune presents no compelling features for the geek.
Secondly, are you really continuing to argue that subs are the killer feature after 4 years of hype and zero success? Sad. Subs do not even register as a blip. You may buy into renting music for your entire life, but most edge cases either want to own or are willing to indulge in piracy.
Thirdly, who cares? Geeks may be a source of early penetration, but we are FIVE YEARS into the development of this market. The iPod is for edge cases, the mainstream, and those who weren't even big music consumers but are newly discovering they enjoy the personal device. The edge case might have been significant 5 years ago. Now, the edge is simply those geeks who want to hack the "OS" and who want support for a dozen barely used OSS content formats. Zune will never provide these "edge case" features, and the edge doesn't represent a significantly large enough market segment to matter.
So Robert, does the IPOD free you from DRM? NO!
In fact, the ONLY reason the Zune can't play iTunes music is because of APPLE DRM!!!
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
I see you are a wise man. Great predictions on iTV.
You should be very wise. You are able to write a big comparison story without having seen/used the device. ( remote possibility - you have seen it - Still thats not the one out of the box)
Aren't you going to predict 99% market share for macs also? I am tired of all market predictors. You can look up a couple of pictures/use some thing for 10 minutes and go on on how the market and the mass will react to things. Why dont you tell me that you knew GOOG would hit 485 today and YT will be bought for 1.65 billion...
Not much to argue here, but I'm much, much less enamored with the "coolness" argument. The iPod is cool because it is cool. It is a trendsetter, and Apple appears to have the vision to keep executing, keeping the iPod ahead of the pack. The "Fundamental" section of your comments shows that the Zune is not cool, nevermind cooler.
However, your point about sharing deserves comment. The iPod has always been a great sharing device: use headphone splitters, share the headphones, swap iPods, connect your iPod to a friend's computer or stereo or iPod dock, stash one of many small apps on your iPod so you can pull tunes off the iPod to share. Lend your iPod to someone for a day or two or longer. All of these modes of sharing trump MS's marketing speak about "social experiences" when thaty social experience is confined to a highly limited one-directional "sharing" aimed at adding some revenue to MS's coffers. This sharing on the iPod (and largely available to any DAP but less so because of smaller marketshare and less of an ecosystem) is more human and interactive and real than Ballmer's "squirting" with limited playback.
And I'd surmise that only 3% of portable players ever have podcasts transfered to them at all.
This is not a big deal.
And as was stated above, you can probably use a 3rd party podcast subscriber and just sync with the folders that that 3rd party app uses.
Dare is in the process of adding podcast support to RSS Bandit as we speak. ;-)
IE7's RSS functionality already supports automatically downloading multimedia attachments within RSS feeds (i.e. podcasts), so one can simply sync with the folders that IE downloads those to as well.
Not a big deal, IMO.
Regarding lack of Mac support:
This is not an issue. You know why? 99.99999% of Mac users will NOT choose a product against which Apple competes. They will choose the product that Jobs tells them to, end of story. That's why there's virtually zero (or only half-hearted at best) support for the Mac by other portable player makers. They know that Apple has that market locked up to themselves. The Windows market is much more competitive.
This is such a silly myth. 90% of Mac users use both systems because the work environment forces them to. Most Mac users will consider any worthwhile product.
And I'm not making a point about trying to attract that marketshare (although the Mac marketshare is greater than the XBox marketshare in pure numbers), but that it is not a more integratable device... in which case, it is relevant that the Zune can only connect to the XBox.
"Goebbels, what makes you think that Zune can’t do the sharing that you cite for iPod? Zune does have headphone splitters, you can share Zunes, you can plug them into a friend’s computer, etc."
Did you miss the part where I said: "This sharing on the iPod (and largely available to any DAP but less so because of smaller marketshare and less of an ecosystem) is more human and interactive and real than Ballmer’s “squirting” with limited playback."? The point is: the extremely limited WiFi sharing doesn't enable or improve sharing in any meaningful way. It is essentially the sole differentiator, yet it is not a true differentiator.
scoble gets owned for over exagerration of stuff.
On Screen: The screen on the Zune and video iPod is the same resolution. The screen size is larger on the Zune, which actually makes the image easier to see, but the image quality will look worse.
On box: The box as pictured for the Zune is quite poor. It only has a Zune logo and name. No image or description. (I realize that MS tends to over do it with description, but no description at all is going too far the other way) The current iPod package is now a clear box. It is very easy to see what you get with iPod. Zune box will only appeal to people who already know that they want a Zune.
On subscriptions: So far the bulk of the Music services, except iTunes, already offer subscriptions. To date that has not been a significant feature requirement based on current subscription levels. Maybe MS will get Zune/Subscriptions right, but that is unclear at this time.
On updates: iPod/iTunes does and has done many updates, some are bug fixes, some add new features. Prior to iTunes 7, iPod updater was a standalone program, but in iTunes 7 it is now integrated directly in iTunes. iTunes updates now part of Apple Software update on both Mac & Windows.
Thats enough for now.
Mark
But then again Microsoft doesn't expect to make a dent against the iPod at first and this is a gen 1 product, I believe Microsft is thinking five years to establish itself in this market.
I wouldnt mind dumping my ipod, the big question here is can the software match the ease of use of iTunes,WMP 11 is pretty robust and seems faster than even iTunes 7, not surprising concidering how buggy
iTunes 7 is, but I need the ease of use and WMP 11
seems to be right there .
I guess I'll wait and see.
The User's Point of View
Here is one area where MS could have an advantage: they are essentially copying word-for-word from a playbook that has been wide open for 5 years.
Also, I expect that the software will include more social features and other extras. MS will, from a place of weakness, do whatever they can to add value.
However, this is where the change in strategy will hurt them. Users will expect PlaysForSure to be a part of the experience; there is no reason for it not to be. They will expect the "openness" that is at the core of Microsoft's standard strategies. It is not clear if MS knows how to do a vertical solution, nevermind if they can satisfactorily get people to accept their strategy hypocrisy.
Additionally, this will help Apple. All of the complaints surrounding the iPod (DRM lock-in, simplicity, battery issues) will be equally present in Zune. This will leave the iPod-haters with less of an argument against Apple's few unique "problems."
The Ecosystem
As mentioned previously, the XBox or Media Center are inconsequential in comparison to the iPod's car market and other devices and the future potential of the "iTV."
"And, the Zune has a better software updater. I’m already hearing that within a few days of release in mid-November that there will already be some new features released."
Also mentioned previously, this is nonsense. Holding back a few features for a couple of weeks after launch isn't promising. It's a gimmick to make it appear as if it will be frequently updated. Everything I've heard, seen, and read from anyone involved with Zune claims they've done massive R&D and yet at the same time they claim they don't know what users want, what will be possible, etc... This is simply silly. In fact, we've already seen large steps BACK from what was originally announced: no DJ feature, for example, only per song 3 play-3 day sharing with an individual at a time.
"If Microsoft can upgrade all of its Zune players easily with new features and games and such, then they can build experiences that the iPod can’t easily get..."
Woah, woah, woah!! The Product Manager told you they have no plans for games and have no interaction at all with the XBox team and you are already presuming they are getting games? Absurd. And why can't the iPod easily get the same thing? In fact, the iPod has already gotten many of these things via updates.
"(and if third-party developers can play there, watch out."
Woah! Microsoft has already locked out of its device its existing partners, its WMP team, and its XBox team, and they are proudly proclaiming this is a closed, vertical system to provide simplicity and ease-of-use, and you are granting them 3rd party developers when already the iPod has iPod Linux and a vast community of hacks and apps, numerous apps to interact with the iPod, simple apps using its notes and other features, game development, exclusive and innovative apps via partnerships with Nike, and you are giving the advantage to the Zune? More silliness.
"Remember 1989? I thought the Macintosh was superior to Windows. Which one ended up with more market share? The ones that the developers could extend the easiest."
Why should I care about your misguided views and poor predictions? Yes, you've shown a track record of being wrong over and over.
Conclusion
"It’s that last point that could turn into a killer feature. If software developers are enabled to build new experiences for the Zune, then we could see something killer come along that’ll get more people interested in the Zune."
And from what we've explicitly have been told by numerous Zune sources and Ballmer and other MS execs is that we should not expect this at all.
Also, in the case of consumer electronics, it is the content, not the developers as it is in the PC world. Apple has a music catalog of 3.5 million; Zune 2 million. Apple has over 200 TV shows, over 40 movies, a broad podcast directory, thousands of music videos, and will continue to expand this more rapidly in more countries quicker than MS can come close to.
With your review and more especially the comments to your review, you just performed tens of thousands worth of free marketing research for both MicroSoft and Apple. The technical, business, marketing, sales, and projection data and strategic expertise here is worthy of Knowledge Wharton. Who exploits it faster may answer your original questions, analysis and conclusion.
A hunch, is all.
The supreme law of the Bizarros' home planet Htrae, as transcribed below:
BIZARRO CODE:
1. US DO OPPOSITE OF ALL EARTHLY THINGS!
2. US HATE BEAUTY! US LOVE UGLINESS!
3. IS BIG CRIME TO MAKE ANYTHING PERFECT ON BIZARRO WORLD!"
(Adventure Comics No. 286, Jul 1961)
http://supermanica.info/wiki/index.php/Bizarro_...
late to...
GUI OS - now dominates
word processor - now dominates
internet browser - now dominates
server OS - now dominates
pda software - now dominates
video games - now dominates
their next targets...
digital music
search technology
are you ready to count them out before the zune is even released?
hint...the xbox 360 is killing ps3. microsoft is already working on the third generation xbox.
and I ask you again, are you ready to count them out before the zune is even released?
The downfalls of Zune? I think every time Matt stumbled or diverted on a question - there was your down fall.
How come you can't share video?!? Possible answer is that Soap Box will fit into that equation. BS, that users were just looking to share music. Heard of YouTube?
I like the features, but as you made note, maybe 3.0.
Bat Masterson is a master of cluelessness, but this really takes the cake:
"Regarding lack of Mac support:
This is not an issue. You know why? 99.99999% of Mac users will NOT choose a product against which Apple competes. They will choose the product that Jobs tells them to, end of story. That’s why there’s virtually zero (or only half-hearted at best) support for the Mac by other portable player makers. They know that Apple has that market locked up to themselves. The Windows market is much more competitive."
The Windows market belongs to Apple as much as the Mac market does when it comes to digital content and MP3 players.
(And, btw, Mac computer market share is above six percent now according to market analysts, not the three percent you make a habit of saying. That's just the kind of foolishness I expect from someone who doesn't know the XBox is a loss leader.)
Microsoft fanboy apologia notwithstanding, the Zune will be an also ran for the foreseeable future. (Assuming, of course, that M$ doesn't pull the plug altogether.)
Here's the ADD-ON to your list. :)
late to...
Phones - Joke of a joke. Getting Symbian slaughtered. And as phones become more PDAish, even strict PDA domination will fade.
Tablet/Pen/UMPC tech - No one paying attention, all mostly wasted.
Web TV, Ultimate TV, MSN TV, Cable TV Ventures - Billions upon billions lost, but still puffing on that pipe with IPTV.
Web Servers - Apache deathtrap.
PDF copycats and eBook tech - DOA.
Graphics software - Ain't no Adobe.
Digital ID Tech - Passport? What's that?
Finance software - Microsoft Money, hahaha, do be serious.
Xbox/Xbox 360 - Both outsold by PS2, still BILLIONS! in the hole.
SPOT watches - Oh dear me.
OS - MSX and MSX-II. Grand Unified Vision, not.
Tech Toys - Microsoft Actimates...oh oh.
Web Conferencing Software - Dead already.
Content - MSNBC iffy, Slate, Sidewalk toasted, as countless other content partnerships. MSN Media Network the latest poke. Rathole.
Home Tech - Microsoft at Home (MAH)/Microsoft at Work (MAW) / BOB trainwrecks.
Hardware - Abandonware WiFi. Mouse and some halfway dominate still.
And more...and much more to come. I predict the Halo movie will be a Bonfire-like disaster.
The only thing that was intriguing to me about Zune was the wireless. At the minimum it should have allowed syncing with a PC to copy files. The sharing thing is interesting but not cool enough, since you need more than one Zune for it to have any point.
We'll see but I'm predicting this is a loss leader and a doorstop to buy time for MSFT to come out with a better version 2 or 3.
Also re the podcast comment - my shuffle is almost entirely filled with podcasts. My daily routine is to run my podcatcher in the morning (Doppler Radio, still searching for anything as good for the mac) and then sync my shuffle (which is usually already connected and recharging overnight). I sync against a smart playlist of unplayed songs - so typically I fill my shuffle with 10-12hrs of podcasts - more than sufficient for my listening needs most days.
With the rare exception, I only use my shuffle to listen to podcasts - and though I may be an exception - I suspect I'm not the only person. For me the shuffle has a great set of features - small, nearly indestructible, lightweight. I am tempted however to get one of the new shuffles - which are even smaller and the clip looks pretty useful as well (I usually use the lanyard currently).
I may also get a nano or bigger iPod in part due to the cross platform compatibility (I have an iMac and a Thinkpad)
Nice job. This is what I've been saying but have been a bit more blunt. Just like the original Xbox was hackable, if the Zune is as hackable (such as being able to turn on Wifi to connect to network or there's a way to trade songs with no limitations, etc) then maybe it has a chance with the edge group. That same group that bought mod chips in order to turn the Xbox into a media center that played nearly everything.
But the Zune won't reach a mass audience like the iPod has. Women won't buy it. How many women do you see carrying around a the feature-rich iRiver players? It's not stylish and nothing from Microsoft will become as cool as anything from Apple. J. Allard and the Xbox team couldn't pull it off this time around.
How do you know it's just fine when you get used to it? It's not just the controller hardware but the software also which you admittedly claim as:
"Software experience: unknown."
There's no substance here Robert. And claiming it's better at integration because it works with Media Centre and XBox? iPod works with Macs, PCs, Linux machines, cars, stereos...
Zune doesn't work with anything other than Microsoft platforms. And not taking podcasts into account? It's a stinker, Robert. An absolute stinker.
With WiFi, you'd think that it would be perfect to stay up to date by the second with your RSS feeds (better screen too) and podcasts. An opportunity to be completely connected in a device designed for consumption rather than communication. But the WiFi is totally wasted and used solely as a marketing tool to allow the labels to sell more music. And what's the chance that some enterprising scumbag will hack the WiFi and use it to share the first Zune viruses....
Zune is, by design, the ultimate antithesis of the iPod. Restrictive where iPod is accepting, open in areas that iPod would not go because those areas are not pro-consumer. Apple says "Don't Steal Music". Microsoft says "Buy Music Now".
Zune causes conversations and that's great. But they're all talking about how badly this device will fare. But shops will sell out anyway due to a stranglehold on the number of units released to shops. It's a bundle of marketing floss.
It is increasingly becoming obvious that you are moving away from your role of a "reporter" to that of an arm-chair critic and the laundry list of know-it-all-comments that decorate your blog only perpetuates that belief of mine.
My 2 cents -
Corporates today only indulge you for historical reasons; they dont regard you as a credible source of input or information(except maybe for blogging and related matters)
Start reporting; Stop Opining. Opine on those things that you understand and are proficient at - corporate blogging, social networks, podcasts and so on.
Stick to the facts when reporting all else; else you sound hopefully inadequate and out of your depth.
Here's my take -
It really doesnt matter what 90% of 2% of a market owns or thinks of. The mp3 media market is largely untapped and there is going to be plenty of room for everybody without having to push and shove.
Please dont take my word for it - visit a country like India and you will understand what the drivers are. (after all this is the biggest retail opportunity outside of China isnt it?)
Buying an Ipod every 3 months is not it. Nor is having to break open a device to change batteries.
(1) Your comments about iPod updating isn't very accurate. From the updating itself all the way through thinking it could be a killer feature.
(2) The fact the Zune doesn't work on a Mac brings to mind that at the beginnning the iPod didn't work on Windows. In fact, the tipping point for the iPod was when the iTunes Windows client was released.
(3) I agree, Zune has no compelling features today. It is a single model with one or two - easily copied - features to differentiate it from an iPod. To me THIS is the major point to remember. Just as Microsoft can easily add podcast support to the Zune, Apple can add subscriptions.
(4) So they really ARE going to call it "Zune"? Sigh. At least it's a step in the right direction - much better than the 7 versions of Vista... each with enough syllables to insure it can never roll off the tongue.
But what exactly IS a zune? Zune? Or is it zUne? I mean, the original iPod was pretty much that - an easily removable peripheral that seamlessly integrated with a piece of software that downloaded music over the internet.
Can you do that with an iPod? Just a thought; an old rumor I just started.
Drive the innovation. Don't PM about the technology.
This is the forum to voice all of your wouldn't it be nice features for the teams that may or may not be listening. PM = "piss & Moan" Be part of the solution. WHAT DO YOU THINK ?
Besides Robert said he would give his take on the technology after we told him our opinions. That's not armchairing, that's a wise blog guru.
as for the "can i do this, can i do this"... all of those features would rock, but they're all features that the music industry doesn't want you to do. How much pressure did MS recieve from them? I'm sure there's a lot.
The Music industry would collectively shit themselves if you were given a handheld device that played multi DRM formats, recorded radio, let you download music on the fly.
also, I'm sick of the indsutry using "podcast", and "ipod compatible".
My Jeep has had an audio in jack in it's stereo years before the ipod was dreampt of. It's not ipod compatible, it's audio in. (great for road trips.. hook up laptop through car speakers, watch movie)
It's genious marketing though. Almost a "brand hijack". How many people actually buy ipods to listen to "podcasts"... and why did we need a name other than "audio file"?
In my opinion, they are just overpriced "junk". Plus, I don't want to "fit-in" with the rest. People look pathetic wearing their iPods on their backpacks or on their arms so they could "show it off". Sad.
We are like cookies from a massive cookie cutter machine.
Yes, Apple can degrade IPods through upgrades, but MS is the one with the bad reputation in this area. That's an obstacle that Zune has to overcome.
I am thinking how your blog entry would like if your car manufacturer told you to stop using 'their car' bcos you complained...
I think there's a market for an Apple alternative -- isn't that a funny concept -- that will just slowly grow over time. Remember Internet Explorer, Microsoft MP3 player will have a similar path but ending I think more at 50-50, which would be a huge Apple long-term success story.
"hint…the xbox 360 is killing ps3. microsoft is already working on the third generation xbox.
and I ask you again, are you ready to count them out before the zune is even released?"
anyone else see the humor in this? :D
Seriously...is this the best MSFT can do?
If so, they are dooomed.....and I hate to say it being a MSFT fanboy for years.
This is about design... the design doesn't even come close.
Best,
E. David Zotter
Robert and others feel more than free to give suggestions for our device. Btw we will release a SDK for develop and share your own apps for the Gravel devices.
cheers,
http://www.zunester.com/
Its from a guy from Zune's team.
I will take my 2 cents and my eyeballs elsewhere.
How many kids would like the "watch me kick his but in blah blah " game function. Talk about connecting. The new spectator sport while waiting to take on the competition and gaining strategy. I could hear it now "Get him! Look out ! etc. " Just a thought for the Zune team. Robert ask Patrick what he thinks about the idea-r. Was that you in Bldg 42 on the 3rd Floor? ; ) Say hi to Bill.
Stealth blogging at its best. No not yet.
I have had a case of Hamlet: Do be or not be in the iPod camp. But your post nailed the decision for me.
I was waiting to get the word on Zune before making a decision. Guess iPod is the way to go, especially if your son did not see anything different in Zune. The young ones are the harbingers for any kind of traction in the gadget world.
Thanks for the review.
Kamla
kamla
Second, the Mac's market share of personal computers is low. That's all personal computers in all uses including enterprise. In home use where iPods and Zunes will compete, Macs have a larger market share that the stats quoted by some here. Based on past Microsoft behavior, we would eventurally expect Zune for Mac.
When I bought my iPod, I thought that I'd mostly use it to listen to music. As it turns out, podcasts have become my media of choice - I listen to them on my commutes to and from work, and most of my news and current events information come from podcasts (and textcasts.)
I'm sure that podcast support will be added to the Zune in later versions. But until then, given my listening habits, it makes no sense for me to switch.
And I use Windows at work, but an iBook at home. So I need my device to function with both.
Vivek, the digital media content market is not even remotely about backwaters like India. For the time being and the foreseeable future this is a First World matter. Heck, even much of Europe still does not have full iTunes Store access.
Isaiah, about a quarter of Americans currently own or have accesss to MP3 players. It puzzles me that people like you and Bat Masterson just pull some arbitary figure out of the air instead of checking market research.
When viewers who disagree with you are continually advised to unsubscribe, your blog begins to lost its objectivity.
Thanks a lot for the good information and witty comments, Robert. Time for me to move on!
What you get here is what I want to talk about. Period. To expect something else will get you the reaction I just gave. Go somewhere else. It's obvious you want to read someone else.
As for taking criticism, I get tons of criticism. I think my record on listening and understanding criticism is unparalleled. If you think it's not, then maybe you aren't a smart reader and you might be happier reading someone else who doesn't expect a reader to be smart.
I think you meant Apple for this sentence.
Regarding the ability for Zune to update itself, how does this differ from Apple's ability to send iPod firmware updates through iTunes?
My point was that Mac users will choose Apple products regardless. So it makes no sense for a portable media player to go after the Mac user market. Your response that "Apple owns the Windows market just as much as the Mac market" (wrt mp3 players) is irrelevant to my point. The Windows market is more wide-open to competition from multiple companies. With the Mac market, competition basically dies once Apple introduces a product in a particular field, because Mac users ignore and mock competing products from that point on. I've been a Mac user since 1986 and a Windows user since 1990. I know of which I speak. If anyone is "clueless" it's you.
The subscription service, the screen size, the built-in FM, the cool UI, and sure, the wireless sharing, are good enough to put it over iPod for me.
It's been well thought out, and I think we'll see many of the holes - like podcasting - filled painlessly in firmware releases.
- Harvey
http://www.zunerama.com
"My point was that Mac users will choose Apple products regardless. So it makes no sense for a portable media player to go after the Mac user market. Your response that “Apple owns the Windows market just as much as the Mac market” (wrt mp3 players) is irrelevant to my point. The Windows market is more wide-open to competition from multiple companies. With the Mac market, competition basically dies once Apple introduces a product in a particular field, because Mac users ignore and mock competing products from that point on. I’ve been a Mac user since 1986 and a Windows user since 1990. I know of which I speak. If anyone is “clueless” it’s you."
To support your position, you must explain why products such as Microsoft Office and Microsoft mice are so popular with Mac users. After all, there are Apple and non-M$ third party alternatives. Take all the space you need to 'educate' us.
When you've done with that, DO explain why you believe Apple computers have three percent of the U.S. market.
If Zune were The Perfect Pod, it would indeed eat into iPod market share quickly. The reason it will not is that it is not even competitive.
Robert, perhaps if you describe your blog as being an expression of opinion in your masthead people like the fellows who are leaving will not get so huffy when opinion is what they get.
1. MicroSoft has been saying different things for years re: why the iPod will fail and Microsoft's offerings would prevail. None of their prognostications have proved true. As a result, MicroSoft lacks credibility (see failed positioning statements below), the one thing you can't buy.
2. WiFi etc are features that are easily duplicatable. Why would anyone purchase a product for a feature that can so easliy be added (and for which patents from Apple already exist)?
Failed MicroSoft positioning statements:
* people want choice in their music playing hardware
* people want subscription services
* everything is moving to cell phones
* we beat Apple in the 90's and we'll beat Apple again in music.
The company, in my humble opinion, is tilting at too many Windmills.
It's getting really sad to watch this.
I forget who it was that first wrote this, but I agree with it 100%: How many times have you wanted to hand someone a song that you're listening to on your iPod? Lots of times, right? Now, how many times have you wanted to hand someone a song that will vanish in three days? Never in your life, right?
Kawasaki could use this video as the textbook case of how NOT to be an effective evangelist. For crying out loud, he DIDN'T EVEN KNOW the resolution of the display! That clown is a perfect fit for the Zoon: they're both worthless.
Forced your daughter to use a Creative player? That's gotta be some form of child abuse! :)
http://www.irintech.com/x1/blogarchive.php?id=294
Lighten up. Quit holding other people to standards that your comments clearly indicate you aren't holding yourselves to (ouch - yeah, take THAT banana up the tailpipe).
Mr. Scoble has flamed a few who may “Knit” pick spelling, grammer, etc. I have never observed an attack on logic other than “I do not agree”.
Robert, "crits" may be a cry for help and recognition.
Just a Grain of Salt from Salty me.
IMHO,IMHO,IMHO,IMHO,IMH OOOO
And to both you and Podesta, I said 99.999% of Mac users will not choose a non-Apple product over an Apple alternative, not 100%, you clueless buffoons. Oh, and my throwing out that 99.999% figure is known as "hyperbole", a rhetorical device that is exaggeration in order to make a point. What distinguishes hyperbole from exaggerations that are meant to deceive, is that both the speaker and the listener recognize hyperbole for what it is rather than taking it literally. Unfortunately neither of you two are intelligent enough to recognize hyperbole, so you take hyperbolic statements literally and then attack them as lies or whatever. Truly pathetic.
No, I don't troll. Just I don't understand:
there is now a lot, lot, lot of MP3 players, and they are all very easy to use: plug it in your PC/Mac, then drag and drop the MP3s (with or without DRM, if the firmware allows that, that is good), put in your playlist generated with whatever tool (The Godfather, Winamp, Foobar, etc.), and that's it. You have the music you want, or more exactly the sound you want (I mean it can be music, show, podcast, etc.).
OK, the capacity is not on the level of the Ipod or hard drive equipped MP3 players, but my... How many hours of "sound" can you put on a device like that and really listen to?
On the other side, I found PDAphone to be the Ipod killer *for* *me* I mean: small computer, with MP3 capabilities, video, phone, etc. Developpers can extend it very easily (with the SDK). And for the memory, well, you are currently limited to 4GB, seems tp be ridiculous compared to HDD... But no mechanical parts, means (usually) longer life for the support. The weak part being the battery I admit.
Why does my nick make me clueless. You go on and on about hyperbole, but I can't use both hyperbole and irony in my nickname at a propagandist's site?
How hyperbolic are you being? Is it 75%, 50% of Mac users? What? 50% of Mac users would still be 10 million more Zune users than MS has now. Isn't it somewhat clueless to make a claim that you yourself are 100% a contradiction of?
Is this a theoretical question? I thought you told us you didn't put up with CRAP.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/03/27/does...
NO! A bunch of developers doing uncoordinated bits and bobs here and there takes you back to why MS needed to try a Zune in its closed environment- a closed, perfectly created and perfectly executed environment that delivers...
No signs of that yet, because it lacks 1) imagination 2) innovation and 3) passion.
So, Bat Masterson is still at it on this old thread? Still putting down Apple in a doomed effort to score brownie points with Microsoft by brownnosing Scoble. He is not the only sycophant around here (that MacBeach guy is quite competitive) but I must say his efforts are particularly embarrasing. (If Bat Masterson were capable of embarrassment, that is.)
Etienne said:
"No, I don’t troll. Just I don’t understand: there is (sic) now a lot, lot, lot of MP3 players, and they are all very easy to use: plug it in your PC/Mac, then drag and drop the MP3s (with or without DRM, if the firmware allows that, that is good), put in your playlist generated with whatever tool (The Godfather, Winamp, Foobar, etc.), and that’s it. You have the music you want, or more exactly the sound you want (I mean it can be music, show, podcast, etc.).
Not really, Etienne. Other MP3 players are not competitive with iPod/iTunes for many reasons. I suggest you actually read this thread to learn what those reasons are.
Winking at Will.
Apple has had this for ages... Once a new iPod is released, software update will update your iPod software..
The problem, what he didn't say, is when they actually update the hardware, you cannot 'update' your old Zune to .. 'catch up'... it's a hardware update..
But new features etc, are always updated through Software Update... not new
Microsoft's problem is of course, its usual bull-at-a-gate charge at the (perceived) problem, shedding money like a snake its skin, and sense like a desperate maiden aunt at a too-readily available tradesman.
Perhaps if it took another look at the issue, and asked what other things a Zune could do, to integrate the Zune with the massive prior investment in computer software and hardware, its chances might look a little more hopeful.
What I'm thinking of, is this - how many of us have more than one computer? How many of us have sound cards, etc, for each computer? How many of us would rather have a single node for that function, networked to all the other computers and capable of connecting seamlessly to whatever operating system we are currently using?
And Microsoft hasn't seen that? I think that desperate maiden aunt comparison might be a trifle unfair to maiden aunts, who aren't usually that stupid - maybe a headless chicken is a better comparison.
Just my 0.02c - inflation again! ;)
Wesley Parish
It's the Zune any better?
The iPod sound is just rubbish (I still use it and all my kids have one BUT it's the greatest disappointment I've found)
I have owned several Creative and I-River products over the last few years. Ease of use and synching music were continual pains so much that I eventually switched to Ipod photo a few years ago.
For me ease of use and a fast response from the device while scrolling or searching among songs podcasts videos and photos is most important.
I like to fly a paraglider using the wireless blue tooth headset and using my q phone , but for most day to day music and podcast listening I use the IPOD. I would more likely buy a Ipod like device with bluetooth built in and wireless headphones.
I would use that feature much more than using WIFI to share music. If the useability of wireless sharing is not pain free (if it takes too long or is too much hassle to share songs wirelessly ), it degrades the value of including that feature.
I agree that Zune has no compelling must have features yet. Third party plugin's would be a great idea to extend its value.
Does ZUNE have any ease of use features like:
Ability to delete song from device directly without docking to computer
Easily create and manage playlists
Find a song among thousands of songs
Did the Zune product managers ask any mainstream users what their priorities would be to improve the Ipod for useability ?
Zune is trying to create a splash with features that may not be compelling to people most likely to buy such devices..
Some kid with ipod: "hey what you got there?"
Your kid: "a brand new iPod"
Some Kid: "o thats nice/cool"
END
Some Kid: "hey wat you got there?"
Me " A zune/ZVM/(whatever, not ipod)"
Some Kid: "Sweet, whats it do? How much did it cost, asks to see it, blah blah blah..." and eventually admits that he should have bought one. Why, because apple dominates with commmercials, if these better/ same priced MP3/4 players actually did public advertising, then some progress would be made. Plus everyone seems to think that MS has no potential to be "more creative" than Apple. This is simply stupid and wrong, all they do is hire someone better than the guys at apple... DONE!
This flaw is exaggerated by Microsoft's Vista-esque choice of using soft alpha transparency throughout the Zune interface. This makes for nice marketing photos, but makes it harder to navigate through screens when focusing on other things: walking, driving, exercising, riding a bike, or other things iPod users do.
While neither the iPod nor the Zune provide a cinematic movie experience, there is no benefit to having a slightly larger screen at the same resolution in a handheld device, apart from possibly lower battery life.
Go to this link for more info:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/9F60D74A-...
It seems this way with the Xbox and Zune. With these two, he could build such an impressive ecosystem that extends way beyond just a PMP and computer.
Also, the "update-ability" of the Zune sounds nice. Especially if they have an update waiting to come out as soon as the product drops! I wonder what features it will unlock!
Maybe they should put him in charge of breathing new life into the media center boxes.
(Oh... and I am a Mac/iPod user.)
If somebody goes to a shop to buy a gift for christmas this year, they would already know about the ipod family and their goodiness. They might have heard about Zune. Taking into a/c the feature rich ipod and also the varieties available to suit different budgets, I think a majority of them will buy an ipod. (If sony hadn't f***ed up the ps3 release, they might have considered that instead).. So, the fate for this holidays season is pretty much sealed I think...
So, the question is, what about next year and the future? Its difficult to see what will happen beyond the next year. Now, I would be surprised if Apple doesn't have a newer version or flavor of ipod up its sleeve. I think we all will get to see a lot of fun next year...
Anyway, keep up your good work...
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2006/11/10/zune-f...
david_A_2263@hotmail.com
No support for podcasts or videocasts, etc Honestly tell me one good thing about the product, the price? I can get an video Ipod with a more music selection and buy movies, shows and subscribe to podcast, etc.
I am a MS guy, I wanted to like this product but I can't they did it wrong, they had a chance to wow us instead you are left going "why did they bring this out now?"
Maybe they will be realeasing updates and add support etc, but to me that smacks of not being ready and that first impression is hard to overcome if it's bad.
And one last thing, giving Universal a piece of the pie because we are all thief's?! MS caved, caved and for that they should be ashamed.
Seriously.
If ever there were a textbook business case of how companies which grow up with monopolies are unable to offer acceptable products in competitive markets, its Microsoft.
Sure, XBox has come a long, long, way-- but I'd say that is as much a case of Sony's self-destruction as XBox's virtues.
Not only is Apple not Sony, its one of the companies taking apart Sony (eg-- the iPod is what the Walkman should have become; the utter loss of one of the most valuable consumer electronic brands is Sony's legacy).
So, can MS take on Apple?
Its very unlikely-- not only is there the issue of design, there's the issue of intensity. Apple cares about a very small number of things, and cares about them intensely. At the end of the day, in Redmond, the sun rises and sets on Office and Windows-- everything else is a rounding error (though XBox is emerging). MS has demonstrated that their capacity to "keep their eyes on multiple balls" is very limited. Think about Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, Plays4sure,Tablet PC, Stinger phones. . . the list of not-quite-implemented MS initiatives is growing very, very long.
I suspect you can add Zune to that list.
And pop open a nice cold Zima while you're at it.
If you can find one.
I say the ipod is better. The iPod can be synced with both MacOS and Windows (2K, XP, Vista), the Zune is only compatible with Windows.
In my opinion the design with the touch/scroll wheel on the ipod is better.
The Zune automaticly DRMs all content and is NOT compatible with Plays For Sure songs. The iPod can play all songs purchased from the iTunes music store from any date.
Updates: Apple frequently updates ALL the ipods when a problem is found with any model, including the original Scroll Wheel model.
1. They pre-bashed a beloved brand (I-Pod) out of the gate and called their yet un-tested, un-marketed, un-available product "The I-Pod Killer".
2. They came to the market with a product that rebuilt an entire system from the ground up, in an area that was already dominated by the I-Pod. Instead of focusing on a product that was cheaper, lighter and more stylish that might have worked in tandem with the I-Pod.
3. They made it in "National Park Bench-Brown", which is to say the unholiest of colors. Brown is not the new black, it is brown, plain and simple.
Just based on the color alone I see this product as DOA. Fortuntely Microsoft Corp has lots of money so they can refocus on other products they can also color brown...good Christ, what were they thinking!?
1. The fake touch wheel is really four buttons covered by a plastic ring.
2. It won't play any of the music I already bought online from Microsoft, iTunes, or Napster. I'll need to now buy the tracks again from Microsoft to play them on Zune.
3. The MS music store hide the fact that it only has about half as many songs available as iTunes. (i.e. they pretend they have Beatles music, for example, but they don't)
4. MS music store has this mandatory "buy MSPoints and use them to buy music" cash exchange system that is clearly designed to push the price of a single track past 0.99 without you knowing they've done it. All they have to do is change the DollarMSPoint exchange rate at any time, and it's done.
5. --- The totally enforced DRM is ridiculous ---
You can only beam a particlar track to your buddy's Zune once.
You cannot forward a beamed track.
A beamed track gets deleted after 3 plays, after which you have to buy it from the MS music site.
If you start a song, then stop it, that counts as a "play" (if you get more than 90 seconds into it).
6. Zune won't connect to MS Media player, to any Mac or even Windows Vista.
7. Zune can't receive podcasts, can't be used as a hardrive for other files, treats your own CD MP3s as if you don't own the songs.(deletes them after 3 plays if 'beamed').
1. The fake touch wheel is really four buttons covered by a plastic ring.
2. It won't play any of the music I already bought online from Microsoft, iTunes, or Napster. I'll need to now buy the tracks again from Microsoft to play them on Zune.
3. The MS music store hides the fact that it only has about half as many songs available as iTunes. (i.e. they pretend they have Beatles music, for example, but they don't)
4. MS music store has this mandatory "buy MSPoints and use them to buy music" cash exchange system that is clearly designed to push the price of a single track past 0.99 without you knowing they've done it. All they have to do is change the DollarMSPoint exchange rate at any time, and it's done.
5. --- The totally enforced DRM is ridiculous ---
You can only beam a particlar track to your buddy's Zune once.
You cannot forward a beamed track.
A beamed track gets deleted after 3 plays, after which you have to buy it from the MS music site.
If you start a song, then stop it, that counts as a "play" (if you get more than 90 seconds into it).
6. Zune won't connect to MS Media player, to any Mac or even Windows Vista.
7. Zune can't receive podcasts, can't be used as a hardrive for other files, treats your own CD MP3s as if you don't own the songs.(deletes them after 3 plays if 'beamed').
1. MP3 player penetration. Someone said that about 10% of the potential market has some type of portable player (and Apple has something like 70-80% share of this). Another person countered this and said the number of folks who have portable players already is much higher. I dunno who everyone hangs out with, but that 10% adoption rate seems closer to the truth which means there is potentially a huge market out there waiting to be tapped by Apple, Microsoft, SanDisk, or whomever. Certainly, there seems to be room for choice for the consumer.
2. I wonder if anyone from MS has ever stated for the record that Zune is an "iPod Killer"? I know that's the perception from the media, but it seems like everyone who has posted here laughs when Zune is mentioned in the same breath as the iPod ecosystem. I think you play right into Microsoft's hand by comparing the Zune to the iPod. If it really is a non-competitor, why mention it at all? I personally would rather see more comparisons with an Archos, SanDisk, or even Cowon or iRiver player. Certainly, they are more mature players in the market. Ignoring the Zune (if you really want it to fail) hurts Microsoft more in many ways than mentioning it negatively does. The fact that is coming up so often in articles indicates that people do think MS is a relevant player in the space, which is exactly what they want to establish.
3. iPod Repairs. I have a 1st generation Mini and the only thing I've had to do is replace the battery on it. I do have friends who have had their iPod "brick" on them, all when the warranty has expired. I think it's perceived that iPods fail more often than other players because there are simply so many more of them out there. How often you feel you should replace your unit because of obsolesence or mechanical breakdown is up to each individual.
4. Firmware upgrades. Yep, iPod and pretty much any modern consumer electronics device can be upgraded via a simply flashing of the firmware. I think the point of the Zune having more upside is that the raw hardware has more potential than the current generation of players (maybe save for the Music Gremlin). But I agree, the upgradeability argument is a bit misleading. I wonder if people would be taking about Zune so negatively if the software running it was Linux or some other embedded OS that was hackable?
5. iTunes Music Store vs Zune Marketplace. Completely agree that there is much less content in the Zune Marketplace than iTMS. Need to also say that both the pay-as-you-go and subscription options are going to appeal to very different people. To say that one system is better than the other is ludicrious and at least Zune Marketplace offers a choice. I do think the points system is confusing to anyone who hasn't used Xbox Live and certainly to anyone who has purchased anything from iTMS. Does it mean that it's simply a mechanism for Microsoft to deceptively make people spend more at the store? I think that's really stretching it. iTMS seems to be every bit as restrictive as the Zune Marketplace as far as buying so goes, and there is no subscription option whatsoever. Sure, stuff in iTMS has pretty flat pricing, but do you really want to spend as much money on the latest disposable pop song as something that is a back catalog item? It looks like the Zune Marketplace offers the flexiblity of pricing things differently, albeit at the expense of perceived simplicty. Oh, the whole Marketplace trying to deceive customers that there is more content there than is actually available argument is bunk. MTV does the same thing with URGE. Anyways, the Zune software is freely available to try out so you can see for yourself if it really feels deceiving.
6. Wireless sharing. Really, this is not a platform seller, even if the DRM restrictions were loosened up. That being said, at least it's an option with current generation of Zune devices. You want to talk about community and sharing? Pandora, Last.FM, and other music-centric social services are where the real action is going to happen (or are happening), IMHO. If Microsoft or Apple can integrate their device into services like this, then you'll really see the real music as a social experience happening on portable devices.
cheers
ps - itunes? = not gonna be beaten ANY time soon..
zune? = come on... we've seen how microsoft's shit "works already"
zorry, but the ipod WILL stay in the #1 spot for a very long time
ps - xbox 360 is pretty cool, im not bashing it.. im just sayin' if i could choose between integrating my mp3 player with that or a frikin car... come on! not to mention the recently announced alliances with airlines? ipods are now integrated on the road and in the air.. zune? iintegrated on xbox.. congrats?
From
Will
These complaints about the wi-fi being limited, atleast it has wi-fi nobody else does. The complaints about not playing Play for Sure stuff, no big deal burn it to CD and rip it into Zune. I am not sure if this will be iPod killer or not, but integrating it with the Xbox is a great feature. But finally someone who has the money to throw at Apple can take a serious run at them.
Not trying to spam, but as the subject is lack of podcast support and third parties filling the gap...
We just released http://feedyourzune.com
It's an RSS video aggregator that's integrated with the Zune Marketplace software - to "feed your zune" video and audio podcasts. It's a stand alone client app based on the FireAnt platform. New interface, two integrated directories (FireAnt and Network2 guide) it's fast and, dare I say, almost bulletproof.
Enjoy.
The Zune is far better than the current iPod - which looks like something out of the 1990s - the click wheel iPod is history.
The Only way Apple can hope to survive being Zuned right out of the market is by releasing the full screen video iPod with touch screen.
While they are at updating the ipod, they might as well toss in camera, bluetooth wireless, AM/FM/SW radio, etc.
The electronics market has shown all too often how yesterday's got-to-have it hero becomes todays bargain bin rejects.
Now is not the time for Apple to be resting on it's past accomplishments.
If they are unprepared to compete with the Zune for the Christmas shopping season, at least Apple should have the next iPod ready for Jan 1st. 2007 - and try to capture some 'Christmas Money' sales at the tail end of the holiday season.
http://techelecfan.wordpress.com/2006/11/18/zun...
I dont agree with you about the price, an ipod video is a bit over 2000 SEK and i got my zune with shipping included for 1900 SEK!
Just another interesting tid-bit
Anyway, reading your review and realizing I can't play my Itunes songs gives me another huge reason to avoid it (and reminds so much of why no matter how much you try to be open minded about MS, their propreitary crap will always screw you). What are we supposed to do with all those songs?
Will they lose the short term game? Sure. iPod has a ton of momentum that would be hard to challenge for any device (even if it was superior on all accounts). In the next year or two, iPod will continue to outsell Zune, there's no way around that.
The thing is, my gut says Microsoft is making a long term play at carving out a new industry and market. They ignored podcasts because they are realistically not the focus of the device - a portable media player, and I believe they only support DRM because if they didn't (and allowed sharing songs without protection), they would be buried in lawsuits and public scrutiny. I believe out of the box they can't allow this, but now to my real point...
I am a professional software developer and what is the key selling point for me? It's essentially a Pocket PC platform (or some flavor thereof) meaning I can extend, hack and modify the device given enough time and research. I think we'll be looking at a fully functional device over Wi-Fi, ways to override the DRM sharing limitations and really extending the device. All of these "limitation" or "wouldn't it be great if" features will be answered. I have NO doubt I could write a piece of software to record from the FM tuner, it's just a matter of figuring out the device. Could I do that on an iPod? Not a chance in hell - not without risking destroying the device.
Even furthermore, if Microsoft releases a Zune SDK (removing the need to even GUESS about how to work with the device or OS), I think iPod is in serious trouble. I found XBox (the first one) appealing because I was able to swap out hard drives, rig up a PC keyboard and mouse to work with it, and even write software for the XBox given the SDK. To take it back even further, The Sega Dreamcast had the same flexibility running Windows CE. The fact that hardware devices that are based on windows, a common, well known, and extendible platform really makes any Microsoft device appealing. It gives the potential to really extend the device if you are savvy - granted I'm not the norm, but who is to say there won't be 3rd party developers and software companies writing that killer app for Zune? It's definitely something to think about - I think they are opening a door that could really put iPod in a bind in the next 5 years. Sure, music and video iPod may have an edge, but what about the ability to use the WiFi on your Zune to control your Media Center PC? Streaming audio/video FROM your media center PC over the internet using the WiFi? The possibilites are endless and I think we will see some impressive stuff out of the platform.
You couldn't even think about that on iPod.
All said and done, I don't think Microsoft cares about DRM or intentionally limited the integration with WiFi or any feature thereof - I think they had a release date to get the product to market, cut bait on the nice to haves and wanted to get the device released for the 06 holiday season. I think over the next year, we will see Microsoft play some cards that will turn heads and nobody would have expected. If not - I can honestly say I would be dissappointed with Microsoft and that they are definitely losing their edge as an innovative company.
I just don't think we've seen the entire hand, and that's how they want it for now. Enter the marketplace under the radar and then move in for the kill by opening the door for Micro ISV's to write a killer app for this type of device.
To date, every portable media player has been 100% proprietary (some custom linux flavor, etc). All Microsoft has to do is be willing to open up the architecture and they have the total advantage.
First off, I’m big in the whole WiFi scene. It's _the_ thing since sliced bread, it's the future. When I heard Zune had support for it, I thought "wow, this could be really good". Then I watched the video and found out its sole purpose is to send a file to a specific device, which must also accept the transmission. What a total waste! Imagine being able to broadcast live what you're listening to or broadcast your playlist for other Zune devices to "channel in" and listen. Or why not make it easy and just flag a playlist for sharing so other Zuner's can sample. To go through all the effort on the wireless front to just shun its potential really irks me. It's about as social as a cell phone with stickers on it.
I think they had the right idea, but they executed it wrong. Most of the issues could be corrected in software, but I somehow get the feeling that the direction they took also enforced limitations on their hardware, especially with the lack of a mic-in jack for recording (karaoke fans anyone?). Oh well, I guess I'm still stuck with my RCA =)
Oh yea, white headphones are not a conversation starter,showing your individuality in your backround and sending songs of meaning to your friends will spark tons of more conversations. (plus a white zune comes with white headphones)................Duh,Duh,Duh
Okay Now That That's Out Of The Way..Ipod Sucks Is What I Have To Say. I Have Both THe Ipod 30g(black) And A Zune(black) The Zune Has All The Same Features As Ipod Plus More. WHY Buy An Ipod. No Reason. But Itunes Are A Lot Better Blah Blah Blah. Nobody Even Uses Itunes. Most People Get There Music And Vids From P2P Networks Like Limewire. Zunes Own All. Get Yalls Heads Out Of Apples Ass Little Apple Crybabies. Get Out Of The Apple Box That Your In And Actually Try The Zune!!
My thoughts: there is no 'versus'. iPod wins by default.
ps. I came to this page because I was looking for support info for a friend who has a borked Zune (songs upload but magically disappear), ha ha ha.
I like the Zune design definately better, but I'm afraid if
its not going to be a success, Microsoft wont make much efforts to improve it.
I will buy the Zune if:
1. synchronizing works better than with the Ipod
2. market place will offer somthing like podcasts
3. there is software to put music from napster and that kinda programs on it.
Can anybody answer these questions?
I do know MS had registered a ton of Zunecast (.com/net/org etc. etc.) domain names long before they even announced the Zune; which is usually a strong indicator of future plans from them.
I can tell you I don't have any Problems synchronizing but I have heard others complain that it was slightly complex for them. But I feel it may have more to do with lack of familiarity and less with difficulty. IMHO
Best wishes,
Kim
I own a Zune and the video ipod. I have listened to the exact same song on both devices and the iPod sound quality is superior. However the radio feaure on the Zune and its User interface is as good if not better than Apple's in many respects.
At the end of the day you need to get the sound quality right. Everything else is secondary.
I have yet to find anyone being Social, everytime I scan for other Zunes I don't find any.. I'm okay with that though.
The sound quality is okay. I did notice that I took a Zune and a PSP and compared the sound quality and the PSP sounded better, hands down.
I also noticed, and I'm not sure if the iPod does this, when hooked to an external speaker system it seems that if too much "power" is transmitted between the speakers and the headphone jack on the Zune, the Zune will freeze and have to be rebooted.
Synching was easy, was I understood it, I don't read manuals. Having the album info and art update automatically is a great feature.
I like the Zune, I wish I had more space, 30 gigs is just not enough, especially since I have over 10 thousand songs from my CD library alone that I burned to mp3.
But Okay.. I'm done.. lol
YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPOINTED IN IT!!!
IPOD IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I own an iPod as well, and well....it sucks compared to the new Zune.)
and if i came into school with a brown stylish zune, that NO ONE will have because im in the uk, that is what will be considered cool. being a sheep isnt cool. being different is.
your putting everything from an assuming ipod owning, or ex users point of view, well i dont have one, never have, so i dont care about itunes music, podcasts will work on a zune depending on the format and were you get it, just wont be in a podcast section. its PODcast, not ZUNEcast, microsoft wont be advertising it because it was made for iPODS!
if your going to point out some bad points about the zune, maybe try the battery life?
but the software for the zune, and the fact it DOESNT have that fuck annoying, in accurate scroll wheel are good things!
I've got more pictures confirming the existence of a Razer Protype playing with a MS Zune. Check out these pics of the Zune charging in a Protype. Maybe Razer plans to make that ipod dock with more than just one MP3 player…?
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/stepk85...
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/stepk85...
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/stepk85...
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/stepk85...
Stephen K
now the stupid music sharing thing... WTF you get to play it three times in three days and then microsoft makes you buy it....
and you cant even use any itunes, napster or limewire music with it its pretty.... retarded
true, the zune has limited wi fi, but what does the ipod have?
The bigger screen is definitely a winner for me.
The screen is more scratch-resistant.
The unlimited song download deal
true, the zune has limited wi fi, but what does the ipod have?
The bigger screen is definitely a winner for me.
The screen is more scratch-resistant.
The unlimited song download deal
The better price
And finally, this is just the first generation. Does the ipod shuffle even compare to this?
-But, then again I'm only 14. What do you decide?
Besides, iPod is too popular. I'd rather do something against the crowd than with it. So I can't wait to (probably) get a Zune (still doing research).
Overall while the ipod may be better now, the zune will surpass it soon once people realize what is going on.
I currently have an ipod, and use Winamp to sync it
However, for podcasting, i still have to use itunes
Its the same for the zune, you CAN (figuratavly speaking) add podcasts to your zune, but it wont appear in a podcast area (You could make a podcast PL tho...
r u kidding me look at it
Zune is trying to compete with the gen 5 ipod now this
zune is done
or for more space get the 160 gig iPod Classic
also, the updates make it very cool because when apple adds new features to the ipod, you have to go out and spend a couple hundred dollars on a new one while with zune, you can get updates to enhace the expiriance. perhaps games will be on the way (if not, that's NOT why I bought my zune, it was for music and video) but ms is working on the zune.
And also again, who cares about the color of your music device!? and if that's what you're looking for, zune has plenty of colors. even some unusual colors that show that you are't an ipoder. also more duable and while walking with it just in your pants pocket and if they're baggy, you know you have it unlike the ipod nano's.
Zune: not winner yet, but soon. once the word is spread around...
Zune: 30 GB - $300
iPod: 8 GB - $300
!!!!!
1: The zune's 3-inch screen is awesome.
2: The controls take only about 30 seconds to master.
3: It includes EVERYTHING you need. You have to buy iTunes separatly for iPod (i don't like Apple's way of doing this)
4: It now has smaller flash models and a higher capacity model with touch controls.
5: Ever since the original release, updates have allowed it to work with more formats.
6: There are a few more color options (i know it isn't that important but...)
Granted Apple was first at this market, and has been the greatest since then. But, in my opinion (and this may be affected by the fact that the only iPod i ever had anything to do with never worked), its time for the zune to take the throne. Of course the player you buy really depends on what you want. Apple fanboys will always love the iPod. But the time of the zune is coming, and it showed an extreme amount of improvement since its launch, and it'll get even better. I have nothing against the iPod, i just love the zune.
- Sleepy.Almond@gmail.com
I have used both the Zune and the iPod (Classic and Shuffle)
Zune sucks. Its Zune software on the PC is a pain. Compare that to iTunes - really no effort required for doing even new stuff.
Actual Zune interface is also tacky. But that may be because iPods controls are revolutionary. But patented interface or otherwise, Zune did come out after iPod had been released for a substantial time. Microsoft had experienced the quality of the product that was in the market. Is this the best that they could do?
Besides. Microsoft will never be able to appeal to the same market Apple does. No contest.