Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

John C. Welch — Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:03:06 -0000

5:45: Will I be able to open this file in Linux? In MacOS? In a non-Office program in Windows?

Yes. It’s a text file inside a ZIP file. Yes. Yes.

Will these documents be portable across platforms, without a degradation in quality or interoperability?

Yes. Watch the video. It explains all.

Robert...what happens when someone in Office 12 on Windows uses IRM to set a document as view only for a week, with no print or modification rights, and sends that to someone running Linux or *BSD, or Solaris?

Will they be able to use that document in the way the IRM rights allow, or will they be told to view the document on an "approved" platform in an "approved application"?

See, even if you set rights on a PDF file, as long as I can view it, I can read it in Acrobat Reader, Preview (on mac os x), in a browser with the PDF plugin from Schubert|IT, or with many, many other applications that aren't provided by Adobe.

Based on past IRM history, if you apply IRM, that document becomes, in a *best case* scenario, usable ONLY within Office on Mac OS X/Windows, or IE on Windows.

IRM issues are ALSO a part of this, and MS has no credibility here.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:40:36 -0000

Roger, it'll be about the same thing as WMV (I mean VC-1) which reveals that 95% of the technology in VC-1 is in fact in mpeg-4 and owned by companies other than Microsoft.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Roger Jennings — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:59:25 -0000

The real issue is: What will happen when the ECMA working group submits an almost-identical set of XML document standards as OASIS's ODF to ISO/IEC-JTC1 in 2006?

OASIS submitted ODF 1.0 to ISO/IEC-JTC1 on September 30, 2005.

There's more on this issue at http://oakleafblog.blogspot....

--r

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:23:31 -0000

why can't I post?

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:02:31 -0000

what's up?

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:02:10 -0000

"You just need to use the download file and the latest Microsoft Media Player. "

You mean the one from 2 years ago? (I know there have been bug fixes, but really... ) "latest" is quite superfluous in that statement.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Goebbels — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:00:23 -0000

Matusow's post answers nothing:

"The obvious first take on this submission will be all about Massachussets and whether or not we were "made" to do this by them. The real story is no we were not. The concerns raised in MA are important as is our relationship with them, but it is important to remember that 2 years ago this month we made the Office 2003 XML Reference Schema available under extremely favorable terms for implementers. The discussions around the State of MA unquetionably put a fine point on the discussions about the future of how document formats were handled, but they were not the direct catalyst of this action on our part. "

Yeah. Got that. That's a time line. It presents no argument or logic. In 2003, the XML Schema was made available. So what? The schema does not mean that any application on any platform can read and create Office compatible documents without a license or use of your patents.

Which is why Mass. rejected the formats.

NOW, and ONLY NOW, do you take this step.

So can you please explain how that post explains ANYTHING?

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Wayne O — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:44:54 -0000

Beautiful. This should also mean that any competitor, open source and/or commercial, will be able to provide 100% compatibility with Microsoft formats without having to reverse engineer anything. . . IF the licence truly is an open standard. Theoretically that opens up the market for competition, which in the end gives the consumer more choice and pushes all software providers, Microsoft included, towards higher quality products.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Mark R — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:43:52 -0000

Paoli: we are offering the Office XML file format technology behind billions of documents

Danny: are there *really* billions of these

Scoble: Yes, actually, there are. Have you missed how much market share Office has around the world? The Starbucks guy alone I was sitting next to had hundreds of Office files.

The way the original answer was worded sugested that billions of documents were already written in Office 12, when they obviously aren't. Sorry for being harsh, but it's not Danny's fault if he couldn't parse the weaselspeak.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Len Bullard — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:46:06 -0000

1) What is open?

2) What is open enough?

3) What is good enough to be called a 'standard'?

4) What is good enough to be developed as a specification?

5) In a world of just-in-time delivery of bundled functionality for a specific task (think mashup), is reduced complexity per namespaced application better than tightly bundled functionality (web application vs desktop)?

Using ECMA is an old dodge and ISO was so thorougly butchered in the opening days of web 1.0, it takes some chutzpah to go that route in standardization, but that is a separate issue. It does have an effect on item a. below but we don't know if that is positive or negative. There is a bit of 'as the twig is bent, so grows the tree' karma here.

On the other hand, some believe this is about OpenDoc vs OpenOffice. This is about:

a. Procurement policies that can create a tipping point.

b. The fact that PDF was considered 'open enough' and therefore, Adobe is the ultimate winner of this current tempest in a teapot.

The entertainment value here is profound.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

grant p — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:23:15 -0000

wow. i don't know why, but that was one of the creepiest interviews i've ever read...

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

scobleizer — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:55:44 -0000

>I’d love to watch the video, but I can’t. Most WMV files don’t work correctly on my Mac.

Funny how they work on the Mac sitting here. You just need to use the download file and the latest Microsoft Media Player.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

5.45 — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:34:33 -0000

I understand the format completely, and I also understand the patent issues around it: http://arstechnica.com/news... (Ars Technica). Speaking of Ars, there coverage of this news is superb and honest: http://arstechnica.com/news...

I'd love to watch the video, but I can't. Most WMV files don't work correctly on my Mac. Hmmm. Funny how that is. Well, at least the site its hosted on renders, what with me not using IE6. Oh, wait, IE6 isn't even offered on this platform. Well, I guess that just puts me in the ghetto. Hopefully, I'll be able to type up my complaints in Word 12 for the world to see.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

scobleizer — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:25:53 -0000

5:45: >Will I be able to open this file in Linux? In MacOS? In a non-Office program in Windows?

Yes. It's a text file inside a ZIP file. Yes. Yes.

>Will these documents be portable across platforms, without a degradation in quality or interoperability?

Yes. Watch the video. It explains all.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

5.45 — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:20:22 -0000

Then again, this is the same company that can't even make their web content and video format work correctly outside of their playground, so I'm not going to wait up for an answer.

You know, Microsoft, you're a frustrating beast. So much good always fucked up by so much nonsense.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

5.45 — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:17:30 -0000

Will I be able to open this file in Linux? In MacOS? In a non-Office program in Windows? Will these documents be portable across platforms, without a degradation in quality or interoperability? Or, is this just a trojan horse to ensure that my shop upgrades to Office 12, whether we like it or not?

OpenDoc: Wide-open format, not entangled by patent issues, not strapped to any one software suite, created and used by a group of companies with proven open software support.

OpenXML: Open (with a few catches), entangled with various patent issues that will likely stymie interoperability, born from a dominating software suite, created and used by a company that would like nothing more than to wipe open software off the face of the planet.

Office Team, you've got some serious questions that need to be answered. I don't want to request government documents in 2012 only to be told that I must be running Windows Vista SP3, Office 13 and Internet Explorer 8 to view them. So, until you prove otherwise, OpenDoc is the future in my eyes.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

scobleizer — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:15:39 -0000

As to the MA question, I think this answers that better than I could: http://blogs.msdn.com/jason...

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

scobleizer — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:12:58 -0000

Danny: >are there *really* billions of these

Yes, actually, there are. Have you missed how much market share Office has around the world? The Starbucks guy alone I was sitting next to had hundreds of Office files.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

danja — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:46:52 -0000

If the format is truly opened up, then this move has to be welcomed. But there are hints of smoke and mirrors: "Office XML file format technology behind billions of documents" - are there *really* billions of these? It's also notable that all this comes after the OpenDoc work and Massachusetts. Microsoft's open credentials would be more convincing if they lead this way, rather than being pushed by events.

On Dody's point - OpenDoc *is* currently a standard document format, it's got an open specification and is used by OpenOffice and several other tools. It's obviously not in as widespread use as Word's current closed format, but it's more of a standard simply because more than one company's tools use it.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Dody G. — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:52:10 -0000

"“Microsoft is in effect asking everyone to abandon all the work that has been done on and with the OpenDocument XML standard and wait for Office Open XML.”"

When the hell did OpenDoc is a "standard"? Just because of a bunch of non-Microsoft folks/companies come up with a document format doesn't make it a standard. Calling OpenDoc a standard is pure bullshit. Microsoft .doc format is the facto standard for document right now; just like PDF, just by the merit of their popular usage.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Stephane Rodriguez — Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:29:56 -0000

FUD again.

Microsoft is recognizing that advancing to new incompatible file formats is going to cause $$great harm$$ to the corporate world.

Microsoft also recognizes the OpenOffice.org is poised to become the default in the Office world, being a good enough file format with a good enough Office suite, and obviously Microsoft wants to undo that.

Their original pseudo open move was lame to say the least. They caused stir but never acknowledged it. In fact, what they should do now is find a new name for the file format because "Microsoft Open Office Xml" just does not cut it...especially when it's a zip file (made of a bunch parts, some of which include yet-to-be documented Xml markup).

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

TDavid — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:14:13 -0000

Maybe today's two announcements are just parlor tricks, but they do show one thing: Microsoft seems to want to open up more on some things.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Global Village Idiot — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:52:33 -0000

Um... ECMA is an industry lobby group.

MS 'partnering' with ECMA just means that MS is up to their usual FUD/EEE tricks.

Who cares about "schemas"?
It's all about the code baby!

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Eduardo — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:40:54 -0000

"Microsoft is in effect asking everyone to abandon all the work that has been done on and with the OpenDocument XML standard and wait for Office Open XML."

That has been a standard Microsoft tactic for decades. Someone comes out with something attractive, and Microsoft freezes the market by announcing, "Next year are going to come out with the same thing but twice as good." Sometimes it delivers, and sometimes it doesn't but it usually destroys the market for the original producer.

Re: Microsoft standardizes Office formats – Jean Paoli interview

Urban Terrorist — Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:39:34 -0000

Fascinating. But I'll withhold judgement until I can read the license and convenant in full.