Scobleizer - Latest Comments in J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Michael Robinson — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:14:48 -0000

The H, J, K, L navigation in vi came from the ADM3a terminal (one of the first popular "smart" terminals, and common at Berkeley where vi evolved), which had the respective directional arrows printed on those four keys.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

adam — Sat, 09 Dec 2006 01:16:57 -0000

Usefully, most mac apps support a set of emacs keybindings, like ^N, ^P for next and previous lines, ^K and ^Y for kill and yank, etc.

They're subtle, but if you're used to them, it's amazingly useful.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

LayZ — Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:25:18 -0000

Scoble, it's not like the "chose" them based on some usability studies or some such research. It was pretty much a lazy decision...use what a lot of geeks (but apparently not you) are already used to.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Anonymous — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 23:55:06 -0000

Hehe, it's funny when non-geeks see the light. People often question why I use vi and instead of a full blown graphical text editor.

I can see Robert falling in love with vi if he invests the time to learn it.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Matt Cutts — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 23:48:46 -0000

I find myself hitting 'y' on webpages because that's the Gmail shortcut for "I'm done with this thread. (y)ank it out of my inbox and archive it." :)

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Jonathan — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:17:56 -0000

I'd really love to join you in the Vista changed world, but it simply won't install for me, freezes every time, even the upgrade advisor "encounters problems" See my post on it...

Perhaps it is related to the problem I have when trying to import OPML into Google Reader! :-) Only common thread is the dumb user I guess.

Maybe it is time to go skiing to Japan and take a break in the powder :-)

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Robert Scoble — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:02:43 -0000

Ritchie: actually, I totally disagree. WHy? On my keyboard pageup/pagedown/and other navigation keys are off to the side. Not in a good place.

J has a little bump on it, so is extremely easy to find (and is the home resting place for my hands). K makes sense cause it's next to J.

These are BY FAR the best keys they could have chosen.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

fishbane — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:52:58 -0000

I think this finally settles the vi vs. emacs war. Sorry, jwz, esc-meta set-rss-mode lost. Thanks for the fine battle. :wq

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Mike Woodhouse — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:16:23 -0000

I'm more of a start-at-the-the-bottom guy, so for me it's K,K,K,K,K,oops,J,K,K,K,K...

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

mgreenly — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:11:45 -0000

It is command line-era but you do realize there are tons of people who still use it daily and there are GUI versions available for every platform?

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Ritchie — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:50:24 -0000

I haven't used Google Reader, so maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't understand why you're making such a big deal about its hot-keys. From what I can see, this seems like a step backwards in usability. Why? Well, countless existing applications already perform preview, pagination and navigation using the cursor keys (left/right, up/down) and PageUp/PageDown. That's what those keys are there for! Secondly, according to the Help, the choice of hot-keys is a mix between mnemonics and location specific characters. Ignore the fact that 'N' and 'P' (Scan Down and Scan Up respectively) would have been great mnemonics for, I don't know, Next and Previous, maybe? We're ignoring that. Instead, look at how Next (J) and Previous (K) are next to each other and then Scan Down (N) touches them... but where's Scan Up (P)? It's too far away, that's where (they should have used 'I'). Finally, what happens if I'm using a non-US English keyboard? The relative locations of J,K,N,P,H can't be guaranteed so they shouldn't rely on it to make a navigation model meaningful. Either use meaningful and localizable mnemonics or use the cursor keys.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Keith Patrick — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:35:58 -0000

Honestly, I don't like seeing command line-era application conventions entering into my current applications. For forward & backward, I prefer the buttons on my trackball; for up & down, I prefer the mousewheel. And if I am using the keyboard, I prefer using the arrow keys.
I haven't used vi in years, and I never found its command set very intuitive and thus a "use-by-mind-memory" app instead of a "use-by-muscle-memory" one

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Mike Procario — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:05:15 -0000

Yep, those Google coders must be vi users. You can also use j and k in gmail to move between "conversations".

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Jim Russell — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:55:01 -0000

Hey, pretty soon you'll be writing your posts using 'vi', then.

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

John — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:52:16 -0000

Those keys come from the vi editor key bindings. Sometimes you can get vi key bindings for other applications too. There are even instructions for scrolling with J and K in Firefox. You probably don't want that, though, since it might mess up your Google Reader behavior, and you really want "move my selection in a set" rather than "move the active part of the page".

Re: J, J, J, K, oh, sorry, TWiT talking about Windows Vista

Gabe — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:33:50 -0000

I wonder where the choice of "j" and "k" originates. Perhaps it's inspired by the ancient unix text editor vi (that I spend hours in daily), which uses the same.