"If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft only copies Apple I’m gonna puke."
Hehe.
Thankfully they don't copy Microsoft's product names.
Jason Cox
· 3 years ago
All to true, Robert.
Stuart
· 3 years ago
Another thing they copy is the browsing by album cover like in Windows Media Player 11
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Oh please Robert, we all know it's two ways. But the VAST majority of the copying happens in Redmond.
The Zune is the latest example. And Microsoft still thinks that forcing people to use Windows is going to make the Zune succesful. Good luck there. The Windows Media UI copying iTunes. etc.
Oh, let us not forget the blatant lying from the WM team: "Windows Media is MORE OPEN than iTunes". But leaving out "As long as you only ever use WIndows, because, after all, Open is spelled Windows"
Yeah. Good job there. Then Microsoft wonders why everyone assumes Ballmer and the rest are lying every time they open their mouths. Well, we've learned from their example.
You also predicted a media center being announced at the WWDC, and were quite the pinhead towards everyone who said "No, that's not the event for them to announce such a thing", all waving your "I KNOW PEOPLE" penis. Looked real good there man.
How are the media center sales as a percentage of all PC sales? I can tell you in KC, they aren't flying off the shelves. But then again, to you, the country is the west coast, NYC, and Vegas. Then you wonder why outside of your little fan club, no one cares about tablets, or media centers. Maybe it's because most people have better things to spend $4K on than a friggin' TV.
The cluelessness of your crowd of sycophants is so amusing.
andymuk
· 3 years ago
Apple has copied the Media Center layout but they forgot the TV part (and the hi-def part) from their iTV solution. They REALLY need a TV tuner solution.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
John: but the deal is that Apple lemmings like my son always like to push it in your face when Microsoft copies the good ideas of Apple.
>>The Zune is the latest example.
It has a much bigger screen than iPod. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has Wifi, which the iPod doesn't have. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has a subscription music service so you don't have to pay a buck to listen to a song. Did they copy THAT from Apple?
>>You also predicted a media center being announced at the WWDC
Well, I also apologized and said I was wrong. I guess you missed that post.
>How are the media center sales as a percentage of all PC sales?
When I worked at Microsoft I looked it up. Media Center is installed on about 30% of the PCs sold today. Now, very few of those have tuners, but that's not what you just asked.
andymuk
· 3 years ago
To John C. Welch: the Media Center sales are now higher than 50% of PCs sold at retail. Just ask Dell, HP, etc. Not too shabby.
Diego
· 3 years ago
It's true. Microsoft don't always copy Apple. Look at the Zune. Looks like crap. Looks like a kid's plastic toy. I guess style comes from the top. And in this case that'd be Steve Ballmer. Enough said.
"If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft only copies Apple I’m gonna puke."
That is true. They don't only copy Apple. They also copy Google, Yahoo!... oh way too many others to mention. Just look at how many times you see news stories about Microsoft releasing their version of something someone else has done. Microsoft is the new Xerox.
sk
· 3 years ago
"Just look at how many times you see news stories about Microsoft releasing their version of something someone else has done."
Yeah right!! As if there weren't mp3 players before iPod. As if Apple was the first company to come up with the iTV concept. As if Apple didn't copy Xerox's gui interface in the first place. From whom did Microsoft copy the idea for Media Center? What about WiFi in Zune? What about showing album covers in WMP 11?
vinnie mirchandani
· 3 years ago
It's round 198 of the Mac-MS Holy war...with all the SaaS and Office 2.0 stuff should we not be thinking about Larry Ellison's 7 year old vision of Network computer or Negropointe's $ 100 machine he is building for developing markets...not cool, but just a tad cheaper?
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Diego,
At least Xerox had PARC.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Anonymous: yeah, do we ever hear about Apple Research Labs?
Vinnie: what is there to say about it? Why don't you start up a blog and I'll link to a post about it.
domovoi
· 3 years ago
Other things Apple has "copied": - Spotlight - Dashboard - Expose - Time Machine - Fast User Switching (don't remember what Apple calls it) - iPod - Front Row
Besides, that statement is wrong on its face, because Microsoft certainly copies plenty of other companies besides Apple!
"Imitation is the lifeblood of competition."
domovoi
· 3 years ago
"They also copy Google, Yahoo!… oh way too many others to mention."
Google does ts fair share of copying these days (especially of Microsoft). Yahoo to a much lesser extent; I consider them the most original of the 3 "portals" or however you would classify them.
Dileepa
· 3 years ago
This isn't the first time and won't be the last.
PXLated
· 3 years ago
The best part is Apple just copied the FUD. Announce something way ahead of time, right before the big holiday season, freeze consumers in their tracks, ace your competitors, sell billions over the holiday. The only difference is Apple will probably actually deliver come 1Q-07. Jobs is playing hard-ball. And good for him.
anona
· 3 years ago
Since you can't be bothered to know these things, the hierarchical menu UI (which I think you are referring to) is in fact the patent for which Apple paid Creative $100MM last month. Part of the settlement was that if Creative successfully recovers damages from other patent violators, Apple's payment would be reduced pro rata. So, soon, you'll find out who copied whom.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"It has a much bigger screen than iPod. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has Wifi, which the iPod doesn’t have. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has a subscription music service so you don’t have to pay a buck to listen to a song. Did they copy THAT from Apple?"
The whole music store and music player combination. Did they copy that from Apple? Yes. Microsoft again coming in late to a game. Copy what they can and just throw money at it.
Subscription is the inferior model. I don't want to have to keep on paying someone to listen to music. I want /my/ music. So I pay for it and own it. I stop paying and I have no music to listen to? That's an inferior model.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Anonymous: yeah, do we ever hear about Apple Research Labs?"
No. They just release great products.
Diego
· 3 years ago
domovoi: Yes, look at Vista. It's a lame copy of OS X, really. And everyone's waited some six years for that? Why? That's MS waiting to see what others do, in those six years, so they can catch up and put it in their OS. MS are so uninspiring that it's quite sad.
domovoi
· 3 years ago
"And everyone’s waited some six years for that? Why? That’s MS waiting to see what others do, in those six years, so they can catch up and put it in their OS. MS are so uninspiring that it’s quite sad." Copy or not, a lot of Vista's features are compelling over its predecessor. So, why should people care if they copied those features (and many of them, by the way, they didn't)? Look at OS X, so many of its features are copies, but they're useful features! I see no reason to complain about it. People are way too freaking insecure.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Diego: with Zune I have a CHOICE of owning the music or subscribing to it.
Diego: >Yes, look at Vista. It’s a lame copy of OS X, really.
Really? Wild. Well, wake me up when I have a Tablet PC that I can draw right on the screen running OSX. Or, when I have a real media center, not this lame copy called iTV.
Kevine
· 3 years ago
"When I worked at Microsoft I looked it up. Media Center is installed on about 30% of the PCs sold today. Now, very few of those have tuners, but that’s not what you just asked."
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I recently did some surveys where we found that less than half of those with Media Center PCs *knew* they had them, and a tiny fraction actually took advantage of the Media Center specific features.
More on-topic: I gotta totally agree with you Robert. You know I'm a huge Apple fan, but not all good ideas Apple has had came from within the company (to put it nicely).
I'm about to puke on hearing *anyone* is copying anyone. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more of it. Companies are going to develop and innovate in parallel, there is bound to be duplication, but even beyond that, I like the idea of good ideas being improved upon.
Yeah
· 3 years ago
Yeah, Microsoft doesn't only copy Apple. We copy Google, SalesForce.com, Expedia, Adobe, Siebel, SAP...etc., etc., etc. How dare Steve Jobs insinuate that we only copy Apple.
Jesse Ezell
· 3 years ago
The difference is that Microsoft actually provides value with their new products that so vastly exceeds the amount of value that Apple provides that they can come up with more than "start your photocopiers" to talk about.
Jack
· 3 years ago
MS Media Center is sold only because of OEM channel. Nothing more, nothing less. I have three versions of Windows preinstalled on my machines at home and I never used it - but I'm included in "market numbers"...
Jack
· 3 years ago
eah, Microsoft doesn’t only copy Apple. We copy Google, SalesForce.com, Expedia, Adobe, Siebel, SAP…etc., etc., etc.
When looking at MSN site stuff I just have to laugh reading something like this from MS (friend/employee/...). - or puke?
Jack
· 3 years ago
The difference is that Microsoft actually provides value with their new products that so vastly exceeds the amount of value that Apple provides that they can come up with more than “start your photocopiers” to talk about.
I'm speechless. It's even worse than I thought.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Diego: with Zune I have a CHOICE of owning the music or subscribing to it."
Didn't know that Robert. Still, from a personal point of view I would never subscribe to music. I'd rather own it. Then again, I didn't know you could buy it too using WMP because I don't know anyone who has anything other than iPods.
You gotta beat the combination of iPod + iTunes and the cool look too. Clamping on an FM Tuner and Wifi will not do it, in my opinion.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Really? Wild. Well, wake me up when I have a Tablet PC that I can draw right on the screen running OSX."
Do these Tablet PCs actually exist? Haven't seen them used by many people, except pictures of them on web sites. You think they'll pick up in popularity or remain a niche market? ;)
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Diego: more than a million are selling every year. But, yes, they will pick up in popularity among Apple fans. Probably right around the time Apple announces theirs. :-)
Dave Winer
· 3 years ago
Oh so soon you forget.
Who else was with you that day Scoble!!
Geeez Louise.
Just call me chicken fucking liver.
Dave Winer
· 3 years ago
BTW, check your mail, something else for Uncle Steve to copy awaits you.
Dave Winer
· 3 years ago
:-)
bluvg
· 3 years ago
What's sad is, one of the biggest reasons Apple doesn't have more marketshare is because of its smug, arrogant users (not all, but lots). Talk about insecurities/inferiority complexes!
The Media Center plus Extender model is exactly what they're copying with iTV, minus the TV recording feature (perhaps because they want everyone to purchase it from iTunes). Do I care that they copied the UI? Not at all, except to the extent that I'm so tired of them making such a big deal about Microsoft copying them, and then never acknowledging when they're the ones copying--just like at the WWDC keynote, where they made many rather unprofessional remarks about their competition copying them, then went on to talk about many features they themselves were copying, without batting an eye. I've never seen Microsoft take potshots at Apple at a keynote. It comes across as pretty desperate, honestly.
A few clarifications:
- Google has some cool things, but a lot of their innovations lately have been purchased.
- #4: Tell me how I can license Fairplay, and then you can tell me iTunes is more "open."
- #11: Not that I'm against bridging the digital divide by any means, but for example, India rejected Negroponte's idea: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/.... They worry about the "conceptual vacuum in which the scheme is being propagated." Not all developing nations think it's such a wise idea.
- #17: Media Center has been available for years.
- #18: The Media Center UI has nothing to do with the Creative UI.
- #19: You don't "own" your music with iTunes, either. Subscription may be inferior for you, but can't others decide for themselves? Isn't choice a good thing? Definitely true that Microsoft is late to the game, though.
- #21: Will people ever give up on that debunked argument? Microsoft introduced a lot of updates to XP since 2001, but the difference was they didn't *charge* for them. They also released several different editions of XP; they have hardly been standing still. As Robert said, where's Apple's Tablet PC?
- #28: I agree. Microsoft has done nothing to market Media Center, so they aren't helping raise awareness of the feature.
Goebbels
· 3 years ago
Scoble, your defense of Zune proves the point.
Jobs makes the point because in the minds of the average person it holds true. Yes, borrowing occurs on both sides, and yes, Apple has gotten good features from Microsoft. But more often the significant and major copying of Microsoft from Apple occurs when they are going in the wrong direction and need to correct course. Or, after Apple simply does something quite original and clever. (Even if we say Apple copies MS, MC has its own precedents, etc...)
You are throwing out the silliest throw-in features of Zune. Did MS claim the iPod would fail, that the model was wrong, that it's plan was right for almost FIVE YEARS? Did they get their ass kicked and decide to correct course by copying Apple in terms of controlling the store, app, and hardware, locking out partners, and claiming that a tight, vertical solution that's easy to use without a fractured community of device manufacturers and partners is the way to go? To MS copy the simple color scheme, basic aesthetics, and even scroll wheel (even though it isn't a scroll wheel)?
But, oooh, oooh, Zune is original because they are throwing in the top 3 rumors of the last three years that Apple hasn't implemented solely because they think the timing is incorrect. You're right, Zune is so original and copying the TiVo interface is evil and unoriginal. But Microsoft is still the more pathetic and "copying"-est of the two companies.
Alijah Green
· 3 years ago
sorry for being noise but what in the email guys
domovoi
· 3 years ago
"But Microsoft is still the more pathetic and “copying”-est of the two companies." a) Why is it pathetic? b) Prove that Microsoft copies more than anyone else.
Ben Hwang
· 3 years ago
One word for ya. Vista.
You ever seen the video where Vista is demo'd with all OSX utilities? It's uncanny. And regardless, Apple still does a better job at UI design.
abc
· 3 years ago
well said....this is a carbon copy of Media Center. Jobs is losing his mojo. I think he should copy Bill and join the philanthropy work in Africa
james
· 3 years ago
bluvg - #4: Tell me how I can license Fairplay, and then you can tell me iTunes is more “open.
For me, I can use iTunes on my macs and on my Bro's PC.
I can't use Windows media player at all. "open" is null for me. Also . the majority rip content to itunes, so i do own my contnent, especially my originals and my friends OG's.
This thread is more suited to /.
domovoi
· 3 years ago
"You ever seen the video where Vista is demo’d with all OSX utilities? It’s uncanny. And regardless, Apple still does a better job at UI design." Yes I have and the silly thing about it is that the features talked about in Vista often times had absolutely nothing to do with the feature showed in OS X (alt-tab behavior, for one). Also, many of those features in OS X were themselves copies of something else, for example, Dashboard and Spotlight.
domovoi
· 3 years ago
Not only that, but that was an extremely limited set of Vista's features. Nor does it even prove Microsoft copies more than Apple.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"BTW, check your mail, something else for Uncle Steve to copy awaits you."
Dave, show us! Show us! :)
bluvg
· 3 years ago
"Do these Tablet PCs actually exist?"
"Diego: more than a million are selling every year."
Hmmm... that's more than the number of MacBook Pro machines that will be sold this year. Do MacBook Pros actually exist?
Michiel
· 3 years ago
In the olden hacker days, everybody copied useful stuff off of everybody else. This was considered prudent, and it worked well for everyone.
Then lawyers came along, "intellectual property" (just the term makes me gag) became an issue, marketeers tagged on, and here we are.
ps. I'm too lazy to go watch all these videos, couldn't you just post a comparison screenshot or something?
sk
· 3 years ago
Scoble, why this sudden defense of Microsoft? Are they paying you again?
Diego
· 3 years ago
"- #19: You don’t “own” your music with iTunes, either. Subscription may be inferior for you, but can’t others decide for themselves? Isn’t choice a good thing? Definitely true that Microsoft is late to the game, though."
Maybe not completely own it in that I can't share it around other non-iPod players etc.. FairPlay has something to say about this. I can listen to it on multiple machines, iPods and I can also burn the music to a CD. But if don't have to continue paying to listen to it. I can listen to it forever. In the subscription (extortion) model I have nothing. That's why, again just my opinion, it's better than subscriptions.
Although, at the moment the subscription model may be worth it. With Window Media's DRM being cracked; get a month's subscription, download all you can eat, crack it and own it. :)
But alas, this OS/music/media-center religious war is getting too wild. Lets bring religion in to this? Mine’s better than yours! :)
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
sk: no.
You don't get me. I pass around the shit to everyone, and I pass around the praise to everyone as I see fit too.
They don't even need to pay me.
bluvg
· 3 years ago
"For me, I can use iTunes on my macs and on my Bro’s PC."
And you can use WMP on both Macs and Windows. Similarly, both stink on the opposite platform--WMP on OS X bites, and iTunes on Windows bites. I'm certainly not the first to suggest that Apple *wants* iTunes to be a bit flaky and doggy on Windows so it can be an incentive to switch.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
bluvg: iTunes on Windows is better than Windows Media is on Mac, though.
Michael Markman
· 3 years ago
IMHO, Apple is very smart to leave the tuner out of iTV. I already have an HD set top box from my cable company--and it includes a two-tuner DVR. What's missing? Internet video, my photos, my music, etc. iTV gives me access to all that. By contrast Media Center wants to include every function--including tuners and DVR. Except that it's SD only. Where's my Discover HD Theatre? Where's my HBO HD? Not coming through the media center that's for sure. Not on the Mdia Center DVR. Apple recognizes that there's no need to pump HDTV through my PC into my TV--it's already there at my TV in my set top box. Why duplicate the cable or satellite receiver? Just supply the missing pieces.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"- #21: Will people ever give up on that debunked argument? Microsoft introduced a lot of updates to XP since 2001, but the difference was they didn’t *charge* for them. They also released several different editions of XP; they have hardly been standing still. As Robert said, where’s Apple’s Tablet PC?"
What besides security and bug fixes have they delivered? XP still looks the same to me as it did since 2001. All the stuff that's changed, been updated or is cool are applications from non-Microsoft companies. Desktop search? Google Desktop. Photo app: Picasa. IM: Yahoo Messenger. Email: Thunderbird. and so on, and on. Developer tools certainly have been great from MS. And I use Office. But that hasn't changed for ages too. I hear the new version has ribbons. But XP? Nothing much has changed.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"And you can use WMP on both Macs and Windows. Similarly, both stink on the opposite platform–WMP on OS X bites, and iTunes on Windows bites. I’m certainly not the first to suggest that Apple *wants* iTunes to be a bit flaky and doggy on Windows so it can be an incentive to switch."
Microsoft are no longer developing Windows Media Player on the Mac. Or so I believe to be the case.
bluvg
· 3 years ago
"With Window Media’s DRM being cracked; get a month’s subscription, download all you can eat, crack it and own it."
True. :) Though we might as well take a stroll through the iTunes cafeteria as well, then, as FairPlay was similarly recently cracked.
I think I'll just sit down at the piano now and play awhile... as long as the piano doesn't mind, I'm going to call it MINE! ;) Not that anyone else would want it, anyways....
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Diego: just because you haven't been seeing the different versions of XP that have shipped since 2003 doesn't mean they aren't there.
First of all, Vista was built on the codebase of Windows Server 2003, not XP. So that tells you something right there. There's a whole separate OS inside Microsoft from XP. Should that count as coming from the Windows team? Yes.
Then, there's the Tablet PC Edition. Has all sorts of new handwriting recognition and navigation stuff. Has been updated at least twice.
Then, there's the Windows Media Center which has all sorts of stuff to play media. Pictures, video, audio, that kind of stuff. It's been updated three times that I know about with major changes each time.
Both of those are getting rolled into Vista, by the way.
Oh, and Windows Service Pack 2 included an update for Wireless too. So it wasn't just a security and bug fix thing. But, I don't think that's the kind of major deal that would help make my point, so we can leave that off the table.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Ironically, I wasn't the first to make the point that Apple's announcements yesterday looked awfully familiar. Ed Bott makes the point even better than I did (I didn't see his post until just now): http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=135
Diego
· 3 years ago
"True. :) Though we might as well take a stroll through the iTunes cafeteria as well, then, as FairPlay was similarly recently cracked."
bluvg, that is true. But with the iTunes version you actually have to play all your music while it cracks it. While the WMP one does it almost instantly. So you'll get a lot more music in that month's worth of subscription. :)
sk
· 3 years ago
Diego, just because you haven't read about all this stuff on macdailynews.com doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, just because the site tells you Microsoft copies everything that Apple does, whereas Apple never copies any other company, doesn't mean it's true. What do you hate about Microsoft so much that you're unwilling to let go and accept the truth?
LayZ
· 3 years ago
A million Tablets a year??? Wow!!! Look out, Apple. I think about every PC mfg shits a million non-Tablet PC's a year. I million Tablets, when compared to overall PC sales, is minute.
james
· 3 years ago
Um bvlug, my obscured point is that since I use mac hardware, the new windows media player does NOT work on my mac (the drm'd stuff like amazon etc etc). So in my case, the conversation that whether windows media player is better or worse than iTunes is moot, to me.
sk
· 3 years ago
"I million Tablets, when compared to overall PC sales, is minute."
A few million is comparable to Apple's sales, though. So, yes indeed, look out, Apple.
donkey_buns
· 3 years ago
"And you can use WMP on both Macs and Windows. Similarly, both stink on the opposite platform–WMP on OS X bites, and iTunes on Windows bites. I’m certainly not the first to suggest that Apple *wants* iTunes to be a bit flaky and doggy on Windows so it can be an incentive to switch."
total crap.
1. I own 4 computers, two macs, two windows boxes. itunes works just as well on all 4 machines. i would say that flaky drivers on the part of your PC is a more likely cause of the problem than the "grand conspiracy of apple" to cripple their software on the largest OS platform in the world. do you even realize how absurd that suggestion is?
2. there is a major difference between WMP and itunes. there is no content available in itunes nor is there any ipod sold that does not work equally well on both windows and osx. apple goes to great lengths to make sure that you can buy music and movies on both platform with equal ease.
not true for zune/plays4sure. doesn't work at ALL on osx. microsoft didnt even bother. secondly, none of the subscription based services or amazon's unboxed video store work on the mac. again, itunes works on both platform equally.
3. before you launch into a whole thing about apple's small market share let me remind you of the large (and growing) marketshare of apple computers in the student population. i have been in higher-education for 6 years now and i see more macs and ipods every year. these sorts of services are targeted to young kids, not to the giant business enterprises that windows dominates in. ignoring a fairly prominent platform for young people is the biggest mistake microsoft is making here.
4. i should add that mac users were unable to play movies encoded in WMP9 because MS hasnt updated WMP for OSX since Nov 7, 2003. In fact, rather than update the software MS purchased a company which makes a buggy quicktime plugin which constantly berates you to upgrade to some "pro" version just to play back a video file from 2003.
very different outcome than the h.264 MP4 files i create in quicktime that can be played on macs, in windows, on linux (via VLC) and even beos.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
LayZ: I can't wait for Apple to do a Tablet PC and watch what you say then.
mike
· 3 years ago
"Diego: with Zune I have a CHOICE of owning the music or subscribing to it."
Good. Cuz no one cares about renting music. And it's also great that you have WIfi. Nothin like a 20 minute battery life to sink an underdog player.
Anything else.. oh yeah.. no scrollwheel, and ... MS just knifed their 'partners'...
Justin
· 3 years ago
These Apple vs MS wars are a yawner. Does pointing fingers and saying "well your team stole that, and my team only steals these things" really make sense... or change anything?
It matters very little to the consumer as long as they end up with a great product to use.
As far as my concerns... lets the companies keep at it, as long as I end up getting a better price per performance ratio out of whatever I buy from them.
bluvg
· 3 years ago
"XP still looks the same to me as it did since 2001."
That's the problem... if people don't see UI changes, they figure nothing has changed. And the more the UI changes, the more they figure something is new. For example, if the XP UI was unchanged in Vista, despite the myriad changes under the hood, you'd see the CNets, PC Mags, et al declare it "essentially XP SE." With Apple, it's UI first, and let the rest catch up--witness the essentially unusable 64-bit support in 10.4, the lousy threading model of BSD-on-Mach, ACLs only appearing in 10.4 (and even then only via CLI on the client--very user-friendly, indeed), etc.
You name a lot of free add-ons, but I could make a very similar list of apps for the Mac that were first available elsewhere, and then made available by Apple. The difference? Apple charged for them. And again, where's the Tablet PC? You know without a doubt that if Steve Jobs had keynoted this instead of Microsoft, the Apple faithful would have gasped, fainted, broke into rapturous applause, and rubbed it in everyone else's face for the past several years. But Microsoft introduces it and updates it, and they're dismissed as having stood still.
james
· 3 years ago
Hmm, just read ed botts take and he's saying album cover views in WMP are on vista? Is that out yet?
IS the implemenation like cover flow that is out now on itunes?
I dont know, I'm asking.
james
· 3 years ago
Bluvg,you're getting stale, this thread is stale.
like above, Yawn.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
James: yeah. I saw Microsoft demoing something very similar to cover flow more than a year ago internally. Mostly as part of the demos for Avalon (Windows Presentation Foundation) but more recently as part of Vista demos. Almost exactly the same demo as Steve Jobs did too. I should have brought that up.
james: yes, the beta has been available for quite some time to the public. go to the download center and download wmp 11 beta 2 for windows xp. vista beta 2 and rc1 had it bundled of course.
sk
· 3 years ago
"I think Zune has got to be one of the ugliest pieces of hardware I have ever seen."
I agree with sdpurtill that from the pics Zune looks pretty ugly. Is that only a decoy?
Diego
· 3 years ago
"What do you hate about Microsoft so much that you’re unwilling to let go and accept the truth?"
I don't hate Microsoft. Hate is a strong word. A lot of their products are very uninspiring to me, that's all. Not all of them though. I think their developer tools and technologies are very good. Visual Studio, C#, .NET, etc. Their end-user applications and the OS just doesn't do it for me. So don't take my multiple posts here as hatemongering. I'm just enjoying the chatter on this topic and don't take it seriously. :)
bluvg
· 3 years ago
#68: You're right, it has a bit of a conspiracy theory ring to it, and I usually shy away from that. But I can tell you from what I've seen is that iTunes definitely does not work as well on Windows as it does on a Mac, and I think that shouldn't come as a surprise. Where I work (and iPods are allowed), we've seen some issues with the iTunes services flaking out along with generally pokey performance and high memory utilization. No flaky drivers--these machines work just fine without iTunes.
You're right also about comparing WMP for OS X to iTunes for Windows--it's comparing apples to oranges. WMP for OS X can play Windows Media 9 format content, though--the WMP version is version 9. However, not all WM9 format codecs are supported.
Hopefully Flip4Mac will be improved. I doubt Microsoft will start to update WMP for OS X again, since the Mac community tends to harbor animosity towards their products and avoid them, and also because Mac users would almost certainly pick iTunes over a true WMP update. It would be nice if they at least offered a full codec set with a lean, solid player.
bluvg
· 3 years ago
James... and I thought I was just getting started! :P
For what it's worth, though, I agree with sk--the Zune is not very attractive, from the pictures I've seen. And from what I've read, I don't see any killer feature. Maybe I'm missing something? FM tuner? No big deal (actually, am I the only one on the planet that would want an **AM**/FM tuner?). Sharing music via WiFi? How does that help me if everyone else has an iPod?
Diego
· 3 years ago
"I saw Microsoft demoing something very similar to cover flow more than a year ago internally. Mostly as part of the demos for Avalon (Windows Presentation Foundation) but more recently as part of Vista demos. Almost exactly the same demo as Steve Jobs did too. I should have brought that up.'
It's no good if it's something shown internally and it's not released in a product for end-users. I saw a 3D rendered OS UI years ago, in public, in OS X which everyone could see and use. That's coming in Vista too, right? ;)
BTW, not sure if this was mentioned in this thread but Apple did not do Cover Flow. They bought it from someone else: http://www.steelskies.com/coverflow/
CoverFlow has been around for over a year. So I wouldn't say Microsoft come up with the idea. Maybe someone at MS saw CoverFlow and copied it. :)
sk
· 3 years ago
"Sharing music via WiFi? How does that help me if everyone else has an iPod?"
Exactly. What good is that feature when almost everyone around you will have an iPod? Considering that the XBox team is working on it and that Microsoft is up against the iPod, the Zune looks disappointing. Unless they're working on some killer features in Redmond, I'd rather buy another iPod.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Exactly. What good is that feature when almost everyone around you will have an iPod? Considering that the XBox team is working on it and that Microsoft is up against the iPod, the Zune looks disappointing. Unless they’re working on some killer features in Redmond, I’d rather buy another iPod."
You'd buy a Zune if you wanted to be the dorky kid at school who's got the clunky looking music player. Then you'd buy it. Otherwise you'd get an iPod which all your friends have.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"BTW, check your mail, something else for Uncle Steve to copy awaits you."
River of News? ;)
Stephane Rodriguez
· 3 years ago
Speaking of blatant rip-offs, Microsoft ripped (or silently licensed, I don't know which) the Media Center UI from Cyberlink Powercinema several years ago. An earlier Cyberlink Powercinema version had 100% the UI of Media Center 2005.
Just in case you are throwing a rock at Apple, admit that EVERYBODY is ripping everybody, and even you Scoble seem to participate in this idiot game. Rock on !
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
So about the price of tea in China...
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Diego: personalized River of News.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Diego: personalized River of News."
Robert: I'm still not sold on the River of News idea. Maybe I just need to give it time. Like a lot fo Dave's ideas it sometimes takes a while for the lightbulb to burn bright.
w2ed
· 3 years ago
Microsoft only copies Apple. There. Now go puke. :P
On a serious note, what is the last BIG original thing? Anyone? I don't have an answer either. People are either copying or adding on anymore with very little innovation. Sure, Microsoft or Apple copy from each other, Linux, or some good shareware, but when was the last serious "Holy ____, I didn't know computers could do that moment?"
And people wonder why I'm bitter... >:(
paimon
· 3 years ago
well, i guess you know who started copying, and copied what. i most of the time have the feeling whatever microsoft introduces as new has been around for 4 or 5 years. you don't need examples, do you? pity once i thought microsoft invented the GUI. and copying these tiny things is not much of importance. maybe if apple had been copying, i could joy playing with macs.
greenlightsabers
· 3 years ago
Wow, bitching about Apple. HULLO! Bitching is always fun.
Jamie
· 3 years ago
Scoble, lets be real here. Hardly anybody at Microsoft uses Tablets as Tablets. Why? Because on the whole they suck. Its a gimmick feature. Apple hasnt released a Tablet Mac because if they did it like MS did it, it would suck. Its the honest truth. I've seen ONE person at MS use it for handwriting during meetings and id laugh as he struggled to get the OS to recognise a particular word while I typed away without a care in the world.
Media Centers UI looks nothing like Front Row. Are you serious? The IDEA of Front Row does stem heavily from MCE, but the implementation is quite different.
And the sales shit doesnt mean much either. OEMs bundle MCE with their PCs. But how many consumers use them for that fashion? Hint; I dont know a single person who does.
Zune has some cool shit, and stuff that Apple will invariably release on its iPod/iTunes. But thats the nature of the business. What I will say though is that we at MS are ten times the size of Apple in terms of resources that are put into our products. But the rate of innovation Apple produce that we take from them is wildly disproportionate to our innovations that Apple takes, especially in light of said size of the companies.
Stephen
· 3 years ago
I have agree with the comments of John C. Welch when he says it goes both ways.
However the differences are how the two companies leverage features: Under the Media Center UI is the behemoth of Windows with all the functionality of windows and the admin overheads that goes with it.
Apple have taken the less is more route. It doesn't need the capability to run Office because I don't need that under my TV, it doesn't need to be patched because somebody could potentially exploit a hole in some other area of functionality that I don't need under my TV. It simply bridges the gap between the PC and the TV set which when it comes down to it is all anyone has been asking for.
Dr Herbie
· 3 years ago
Petty, petty, petty.
"You copied us!" "No, you copied US!"
The simple fact of the matter is that competitors copy each other in order to stay competitive, its a fairly obvious business tactic.
Take cup holders in cars. They all have them. Who had them first, and who copied? Who cares. Do they argue about it all the time? (Well, maybe they do on the Ford Focus discussion boards but I think it's unlikely).
This leads into patenting features -- again, it's a simple business tactic to get a competitive edge. So we have an arms race -- create a new feature and patent it. Competitors will add a new feature similar enough to regain competitive edge, dissimilar enough to get past the patent courts (hopefull).
There's no point getting into a pissing contest about it.
Herbie
Rees
· 3 years ago
I read that headline and thought "trollbait" !
I love a good punch up. It's great when everyone comes out of the woodwork on both sides of the fence.
For the record, I couldn't give a shit who copied who or who's more evil than who. I just like to use something that gets the job done! Maybe some of these kids will realise that when they grow up.
;)
Jason Cox
· 3 years ago
Holy cow, Scoble, it looks like all the Mac fanboys who normally follow Thurrott around throwing FUD have found their way over here...
killergroove
· 3 years ago
Just on word - Do you really think Applne needs to copy bad quality work …
Ewan Spence
· 3 years ago
Hear Hear re the Ultimate Ears. I also recieved one of the budget pairs last year from them (so $500) as they ran some commericals on http://www.tpnrock.com/ How ghood are they? I slept all the way from Dallas to London Heathrow on a clapped out 767, in economy. I've NEVER been able to sleep on a flight before, with all the noise, engines and families. But now, Ultimate Ears and some chill out muisic all the way.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Blah, blah, blah. #97 hit it on the head. THis is just flamebait.
As a lot of your articles have been Robert. Not a majority at all, but a significant amount. You're starting to turn into Dvorak here, and that's really a shame. But then if you flamebait enough Robert, your hits go up, and of course, then you get to write in a couple months, yet another one of your whining, crying in your teatowel articles about "Ohhh, people are just so meeeeeeeeean to meeee, and I don't know whyyyyy"
Suck it up Princess, you want to follow the Dvorak/Enderle route, then stop crying about the results. Have SOME integrity.
loook
· 3 years ago
a comment, a link and a comment...
I'm a jazz fan. I love the way jazzers "copy" and quote each other. As I sit in the online media audience now, I like the UI jam Apple, TiVo and Microsoft are playing for me. Makes for an interesting experience. I like their Pop Tech but I'm always looking for new talent to step and blow...something from Yves Behar or nice German Braun or Krups line. And isn't it time B&O stepped up and blew a few danish modern UI riffs? Congrats to Apple for bringing in CoverFlow to join the band and play tenor sex.
re:Apple...I'm a little fearful of the new iTunes feature that scans my library and fills in all the cover art I'm missing. Is it me or is this a great data mining strategy to build profile records around lifestage? Is this a big deal?
moderately paranoid in dot TV land
Hash
· 3 years ago
@103.
For the moderately paranoid in you.
When you install iTunes 7 the program asks you first / gives you the option if you want to auto scan for cover art.
This is Apple NOT Microsoft (pure flame bait :-p)
monkchips
· 3 years ago
crying babies don't bother me any more now i have my own. a. baby. crying and. its. not. mine. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
we'll see how long the baby cry tranquilizer works...
and never forget apple ripped the shit out of Xerox Parc. dont tell me mouse and icon was an apple invention.
Larry
· 3 years ago
Microsoft's Media Center and Apple's Front Row are both copies of the XboxMediaCenter developed years ago for hacked Xboxes.
But, neither company "copies". It is taking a good idea and attempting to improve it. Sometimes there is failure, sometime there is success. That is what our technological history has been built on.
kcrouche
· 3 years ago
Hello? Doesnt anyone actually know that Bill Gates STOLE Windows from Apple, who really got it from Xerox? Come on people, stop being a slave to M$!!!!
Phil
· 3 years ago
I think the sad fact is that when anyone copies it means no one is inovating. Apple has a tendancy to inovate and design good practical products. There will always be overlap to some degree with other companies and developers. The said fact is microsoft generally does not inovate but duplicate. It can produce "good" products and considering it's wealth it should do but often falls short. Drawing ideas from those around it, and generally being lazy it production and execusion. Apple, google, yahoo arn't perfect by a long stretch but do push the envelope. The real loss is end users loose out 9/10 with microsoft because it could do so much better - just look at the Xbox 360 - it can bring it out of the bag.
The problem is microsoft copies far more than most out there and its in the limelight all the time - it should know better but unfortunately it doesn't.
natal
· 3 years ago
kcrouche: I guess you are "slave" to Apple?
R
· 3 years ago
Reader numbers down again are they Robert? Or have you got into that frame of mind "Why I hate this", "Why X is useless", "Why my old company is better than X company" again where you need a holiday? So soon after the last. Are you living proof that Information Overload is not a good thing?
Alfredo Octavio
· 3 years ago
"with Zune I have a CHOICE of owning the music or subscribing to it."
Wake me up when the Zune is out to check if this is true...
LST
· 3 years ago
Well, Apple DID had a tablet PC : the Newton. Atari even had its own : the ST-Pad (I've seen at least a prototype, circa 1989-90 I think).
Who copied who ?
Jon T
· 3 years ago
Microsoft has to be the business that was built around copying. So, go on puke...!
You really have to be an ass if you can't make the link between
Apple and INNOVATION
and
Microsoft and COPIES (poorly and insecurely too mainly).
Joe Wilcox
· 3 years ago
Mmmm. Doesn't the Windows Media Center UI bear strong resemblance to the TiVo UI? I also would point out that the iTV UI actually bears stronger resemblance to the iPod UI, for which Apple and Creative recently resolved a patent dispute. The UI approach is based on a simple tasked-based approach. What is so revolutionary about a list of tasks?
Surely, you don't suggest that Microsoft created the concept of a list of tasks? Long before there were computers, kids textbooks used a list of subjects and coded color segments so that kids could easily find their way to the right topics. The organizational principle is quite similar.
There are plenty of examples that predate Media Center or anything Apple has done since.
Davor
· 3 years ago
Apple has introdeuced first Macintosh that had integrated TV tuner back in 1993-Macintosh LC550.
Details
Introduced 1993.10.25 at $2,079; discontinued 1994.04 requires System 7.1 (with Enabler 404) to 7.6.1 CPU: 32 MHz 68030 FPU: none, not even as an option performance: 7.0 MIPS ROM: 1 MB RAM: 5 MB from factory (4 MB on motherboard, expandable to 8 MB using a single 100ns 72-pin SIMM; can use 1 MB or 4 MB SIMM) video: 512 KB VRAM; supports 640 x 480 at 8-bits L2 cache: none hard drive: 60 MB CD-ROM: 2x ADB ports for keyboard and mouse DIN-8 serial ports on back of computer DB-25 SCSI connector on back of computer no expansion slots size (HxWxD): 17.9" x 13.5" x 16.5" weight: 40.5 lb. PRAM battery: 3.6V lithium Gestalt ID: 88 addressing: 32-bit upgrade path: none
Seeing all this, I really don't know who copied from who. Besides, if we look back to what all Microsoft had copied, stole or just bought off cheap and then presented it as their own technology, well I think that we would need another blog for that....
Scott
· 3 years ago
"LayZ: I can’t wait for Apple to do a Tablet PC and watch what you say then."
Robert Scoble: Why hasn't Apple hasn't released a Tablet system or Media Center yet? Obviously, the technology to build them exists, so what's the hold up?
Apple doesn't just release products because "it can", it does so when it feels the technology, user experience and market will result in a product people really WANT. Sure, there are people who need a Tablet PC for their job or bleeding edge users like yourself who will buy the latest gadgets, but that's not Apple's market.
Apple pioneered the hand-held, industry with the Newton. It was an amazing product at for it's time, but technology and end users wasn't ready yet so they killed it.
But does that mean doesn't mean that Apple stopped working on hand-held / tablet prototypes and software? No. It means that Apple doesn't think the current market, technology and user experience will result in a tablet device that people will really WANT to buy.
If you expect Apple to show their hand and release products just because everyone else does, you're going to be disappointed.
Orbit
· 3 years ago
Scoble you suck, the only reason Media PC sales are up is because MSFT makes OEM put the Media Center Version of regular laptops now.
plus MSFT does copy alot, wow, Apple just copied one little item and you go ballistic.
Zune is just a copy of a Ipod.
I thought you didnt work for MSFT anymore but most of your topics are all the same.
frabgod
· 3 years ago
Two mild surprises for me in today's Zune debut announcement: 1. Choice of downloads or subscriptions. This had been speculated, but nice to see it confirmed by Microsoft. We think many will be attracted to the simple subscription model. 2. Imports from iTunes. We need more details on this, but Microsoft pledges to make it easy to transfer your existing playlist to Zune - with the important caveat "as permitted by the online service from which it was purchased". We were surprised to see it highlighted in the Zune fact sheets, and are interested in how it can be pulled off without better cooperation from other online music stores.
"And everything, absolutely everything, is all about the “experience” — so much so that we’re served cans of lemon-lime water badged with a Windows Vista logo which is less a drink than a “revitalising refreshment experience” (okay, Barlow didn’t say that, but we know he was thinking it) (and yes, this does sorta mean that we drank the Microsoft Kool-Aid)."
How much "Microsoft Kool-Aid" did you have today, M$ fan-boys?
alex
· 3 years ago
So, how exactly do you stay competitve with Apple (or with Microsoft if you are Apple), if you don't mimic certain ideas. Vista is "copying" a ton of ideas from OSX, so hows about we call it even and be grownups here and realize both companies need eachother for competition and ideas. ;)
-sk-
· 3 years ago
"Apple doesn’t just release products because “it can”, it does so when it feels the technology, user experience and market will result in a product people really WANT."
So, the fact that the number of tablet PCs sold every year is more or less equal to the total number of Macs sold is of no consequence? Maybe you guys need to drink plain water sometimes, instead the Apple Kool-Aid. It's not good for your health.
"plus MSFT does copy alot, wow, Apple just copied one little item and you go ballistic."
Be honest to yourselves, guys. Apple copies ideas just as much as Microsoft does. The proof is irrefutable. Instead, you guys start coming up with irrelevant, illogical arguments. Not all Apple products are great. Not all Microsoft products suck. Microsoft and apple will continue to make billions of dollars and we won't get anything out of it so why do we have to argue so much about something that doesn't affect us in anyway? Accept the truth and move on. It's not that hard.
Sy
· 3 years ago
What product is still in beta and which product got released? How many ways can you group songs according to albums? Frankly, we don't know who copy who in this instance because Apple DOES NOT have a public beta program for iTunes. Until then, you can cry all you want.
"It has a much bigger screen than iPod. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has Wifi, which the iPod doesn’t have. Did they copy THAT from Apple?"
Can you copy the idea of "bigger screens" because its a natural progression of all things video is it not? The bigger the screen, the better? You don't think Apple is not thinking of having bigger screens for iPods?? The same goes with WiFi and FM tuner ...you don't think Apple kick around those ideas for the longest time? Its a balancing act of what features to have and when to release it, if at all. I will guarantee you that Apple will release a wide screen video iPod when they are ready.
Vish
· 3 years ago
I think my iMac kind of blurred out all this discussion to blah blah blah professional jealousy rampant blah blah blah- but then it could just be me... Was this pro-microsoft, or advertising Apple? *picks fingernails*
Chris
· 3 years ago
The whole Zune-as-an-iPod-competitor argument died today when it was formally announced that one of the three colors was brown. Brown. Let me repeat that: a consumer electronics device, positioned against the largely lauded styling of the iPod, is being delivered in brown. Name the last successful CE device that shipped in brown. I suspect the brown color will only serve as a convenient way to draw a comparison between Zune and the iPod.
Gareth Thompson
· 3 years ago
How can you say that apple is copying windows. Windows sucks really bad. Look at how long it takes to load compared to a mac. Look at the fact that on a pc you need antispyware programs and anti virus, does a mac? NO!!!! All you guys that lick MS ass just truly suck, all you are doing is paying for a cheap and crap system that crashes and is prone to viruses! Good luck!
And for all you people "really" excited about Vista, Vista is a copy of APPLE's OS X, that was brought out in 2000. Apple is always at the forefront of technology.
simbsi
· 3 years ago
thats true. apple has copied mirosoft's media center. i dont understand why ppl bash microsoft for copying apple. when apple does something similiar ppl rush to defend them.
Granville Barnett
· 3 years ago
hehehe go on Scoble :)
Sy
· 3 years ago
"The whole Zune-as-an-iPod-competitor argument died today when it was formally announced that one of the three colors was brown. Brown. Let me repeat that: a consumer electronics device, positioned against the largely lauded styling of the iPod, is being delivered in brown. Name the last successful CE device that shipped in brown. I suspect the brown color will only serve as a convenient way to draw a comparison between Zune and the iPod."
I suspect Microsoft is going after the UPS workers demographic.
Michael Gannotti
· 3 years ago
So as I watched the Steve Jobs presentation at http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/09/13/video-of-the-... I was mentally substituting things like Cinema Now/MovieLink for ITunes movies, then MCE instead of a Mac, PMC and other video capable mobile devices like Pocket PCs etc for the IPod, MCX for the new “box” to connect the computer to the TV. As I substituted these I saw it being delivered via a PowerPoint onstage………. Oh yeah I actually did see that…. Something like 2+ years ago ;-) and its been running in my house with a lot more functionality for a number of years (I have 5 extender boxes hooked up to my Media Center and all can watch downloaded movies, music pics, family video, and oh yeah live and recorded TV which I can synch to my portables for free) I wrote up a little rant on this at http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/09/13/video-of-the-... highlighting how we are already way beyond this.
I am sure that when Apple does release all this it will be made well, work well, and be a very good stack of products for consumers, they excel at doing that. But is it innovative, new, or even improved? Hardly.
"Microsoft is the new Xerox" - that's *priceless*.
You do know that Xerox - through their PARC - invented just about every feature of modern-day personal computing, don't you?
PS who gives a monkey who "copies" who. I guess everyone copied Mercedes with the car. Or the Wright Bros with the aeroplane.
I just want the best stuff.
Michael Gannotti
· 3 years ago
I'm with Dan! Besides, whats a good bar without a good cover (copy) band ;-)
galsatia
· 3 years ago
Both Microsoft and Apple have being copying the linux aesthetics for the last years. And not only that... Actually, Apple copied the whole operating system ;-)
Anyway, both companies will disapear soon, so there is no point in worrying about them.
Dave Stephens
· 3 years ago
I've used PC's forever - and now I use Macs cause they're better. And they had to be tons better for me to consider switching.. Because it was a pain to switch. Their push w/iMovie, iTunes, iPhoto did it for me.
Now I've been using iPods a while - and I'm mostly satisfied.
But.. if Microsoft can figure out DRM correctly (I like Apple's system), offer it for less, and port their software to the Mac I'd consider trying it - but only if it cost significantly less. That's the problem every challenger faces - they have to be so much better than the incumbent that it's worthwhile to switch. Did Microsoft make it with Zune? No, not for me.
I like them in the market though. A good challenger may improve the pace of progress at Apple. And hopefully keep prices down. Of course in the short term, Zune is the one who's been undercut on price.. I think Msoft should drop $ to $199 - that would generate some good demand. They'll have to make up the losses on Zune v2.. just my 2 cents
J
· 3 years ago
"What’s next, a Tablet PC copy?"
Nope. A tablet Mac that works like it's supposed to.
Cider
· 3 years ago
Robert, u and all these Micro$uck fan boys are really, really stupid and smelly and thik and dum.
U cant reply to mi becos ur stoopid PC is crashing agin !!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Apple invented everfing and M$ copy everfing from Apple. OS X is the bestest an Windows blows! LOL!
(just in keeping with the style of comments in this thread...)
J
· 3 years ago
Cider -- spellchecker; look into one.
skc
· 3 years ago
>>Nope. A tablet Mac that works like it’s supposed to.
skc
· 3 years ago
"Nope. A tablet Mac that works like it’s supposed to"
In what way does the tablet PC not work?
This should be interesting.
Scott
· 3 years ago
Scott: “Apple doesn’t just release products because “it can”, it does so when it feels the technology, user experience and market will result in a product people really WANT.”
SK: "So, the fact that the number of tablet PCs sold every year is more or less equal to the total number of Macs sold is of no consequence?"
You're comparing apples to oranges. WANT vs. NEED.
Apple is in the business of selling things that people WANT. Hospitals buy Tablet PCs because they NEED to keep track of the overwhelming amount of medical information they're required to track for each patient. The difference is subtle but important.
While I don't claim to know the exact numbers, the majority of Tablet PC systems are sold to niche markets with a specific NEED for mobile or touch screen computing, such as legal, architecture, health-care, pharmaceutical and education. Add all of these markets up and you've got a significant number of sales. But these numbers pale in comparison with the total number of Windows PCs sold.
Yes, some early adopters are buying slate and convertible Tablet PC systems, but just because a convertible system ships with the Tablet version of XP doesn't mean people actually use it as a Tablet. Again, I don't claim to know the exact numbers, but it seems that most business don't feel they NEED Tablet PCs, nor do a significant number of users WANT to buy them.
Apple will sell a tablet Mac, but only when they feel they have a product that people will WANT to use.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Apple doesn’t just release products because “it can”, it does so when it feels the technology, user experience and market will result in a product people really WANT."
Exactlly! This is what Microsoft does all the time. Someone comes out with something, they do it because they have the money to do it. And do a crappy job while their at it. All too often you see stories "Microsoft enters so and so market". Always following never leading.
And yeah Robert, the Newton was a Tablet PC before there was a thing known as a Tablet PC. :)
Infamous
· 3 years ago
Im bot surprised at all, Apple's products are getting really dull lately. Like apple's nano, they have nothing new to be excited about.
Cant wait for my Zune, hopefully it wont be as big as creative and nice looking software.
Diego
· 3 years ago
The Zune comes in brown!?! Oh God that is awful!!! Nothing there to worry the iPod.
-sk-
· 3 years ago
Scott, people don't buy Tablet PCs unless they WANT them. It's not like they WANT to buy a Mac but end up buying a Tablet PC instead.
Peter
· 3 years ago
"Tablet PC systems are sold to niche markets with a specific NEED for mobile or touch screen computing".
I don't know if this is true or not, but even if it is - is there something wrong with producing products that people need??? I think that what you're saying is that Apple are creating products that people *desire* and people don't exactly *desire* lots of the stuff Microsoft creates. But the result there is one very, very, VERY big but somewhat uncool company and one not-really-that-big but very cool company. I don't see either as having some moral high ground that their resective fans would like them to have. Tech companies are influenced by and trade ideas with each other. It's the way technology has worked since humans came up with stone tools.
gcr0
· 3 years ago
I don't know what you guys are talking about... Apple has NEVER copied anything in the entire existance of the company. Their OS has been on the cutting edge of software development since the introduction of Apple IIgs GUI which was inroduced in 1989. Since then they have done nothing but produce the highest quality hardware and software on the market. And, within a slightly shorter amount of time, Microsoft has done nothing but produce a poor quality GUI and then consistantly change it to make it "pretty" for the current market. Their software constantly crashes and they are infamous for having poor to completely USELESS tech-support.
As for Apple's new software, most likely, they made it 'look' and 'feel' like "Windows Media Center" because it is very common and familiar to billions of people.
anon
· 3 years ago
If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft only copies Apple I’m gonna puke.
Microsoft doesn't only copy Apple. Microsoft copies Netscape, and Palm, and Sony, and Google and Symantec. And I'm forgetting so many, many more. The problem is that while the others innovate, Microsoft copies poorly. Then it leverages Windows to bundle and uses exclusionary licensing with OEMs to stop competitors from bundling or, in Netscape's case, from even having a chance at the OEM channel.
anon
· 3 years ago
It has a much bigger screen than iPod. Did they copy THAT from Apple?
Is a bigger screen on a hand-held device considered innovation?
I could understand if the bigger screen folds out, or uses some new LEDs, or contains some lighter or more scratchproof material. But just cause it's bigger?
Richard Dib
· 3 years ago
I do not care who copies what from who. All I care is who has better products, and at this moment Apple does.
This is why I buy Apple. I have 7 Apple computers at home :-)
Ok.. I admit... I do have an XBox 360 :-)
(Apple makes life more interesting for Microsoft. For a long time Microsoft had no real competitor... Now... there is Apple.. Google... etc.. I am sure MS has new found motivation to improve due to the competition.)
silverboy
· 3 years ago
I think you should do your homework a little better iTV interface is a progression of the frontrow interface and i don't think it looks anywhere near media center interface ..I own both and i think your grasping at straws.. If anything the new iTunes 7 has borrowed some interface layouts from WMP 11 but thats about it plus iTunes works way better then WMP11..Lets face it each company steals from each other. But i personally think that Apple makes it run and look better
Jon
· 3 years ago
I just watched the Apple presentation. What a joke. There is absolutely nothing about this iTV that hasn't been in Microsoft's Media Center Edition for years. Normally, I wouldn't care. I don't mind copying, whether its Microsoft with their Zune or Apple with iPod, as long as it's done in good spirit. Apple and Jobs, though, have the arrogance to accuse Microsoft of copying when they do it practically as much. That's what really irritates me.
Back to the video... I found it amusing that the audience didn't make a peep until Jobs solicited a response. Also, Jobs, himself, was rather low-key throughout the presentation. Both were as if everyone realized the elephant in the room: the extreme similarities between this product and Microsoft's. Jobs mentions that "iTV" may not be the retail name of the product. How about the "Media Center Mac"? :)
I *will* give it to the product that it's extremely small and cheap, but both are at the cost of versatility and customization. For example, nowhere in the demonstration did Jobs minimize the application, leading me to suspect that there is no fully-functional OS behind it to allow you to web surf or run other applications (e-mail, games, etc.), like with MCE.
I really don't have much hatred toward Apple's products, but what I do really hate is their arrogance and hypocrisy. If they would just shut up about people copying them, I and others would cut them a lot of slack when they blindly copy the ideas of others.
Cory
· 3 years ago
hmm, i though they were hearing aids. lol
BWhaler
· 3 years ago
I think this post marks this blog Jumping the Shark.
This point was tired when it was hot, and now it's odd to even see someone blogging about it.
Scoble, you of all people should understand that meaningful content and insight is the key to a blog surviving. Sure, you'll get a lot of hits today, but your days are numbered if you keep up these silly parlor tricks.
Learn from Daringfireball. That guy knows how to blog...
"John: but the deal is that Apple lemmings like my son always like to push it in your face when Microsoft copies the good ideas of Apple." ---------------------- Apple lemmings doing that is one thing, but the sad thing is that Jobs himself is doing it. Besides bashing MS throughout that pitiful WWDC, he had a full 10-minute long segment whining about MS copying Apple.
Meanwhile FrontRow is a blatant ripoff of Media Center, iTV is a blatant ripoff of Media Center Extenders, iTunes7 is a blatant ripoff of WMP11 (and was rushed to RTM w/o any beta just so Apple could claim that they didn't copy WMP11, and the massive bug reports for iTunes7 is the result). Alt-TAB was copied from MS. The Dock was copied from MS. The ability to drag folders into the command line was copied from MS. OpenDoc (the old OLE ripoff, not ODF) was copied from MS. It goes on and on, yet Apple, led by Jobs, pretends that it doesn't and gleefully bashes MS. Meanwhile, Gates never bashes Apple at all.
Regarding iTunes7, Apple generally do not do betas. So where you say that Apple rushed it w/o any beta, that's just not how Apple normally does things. They release a new version and that's it. What did they ripoff from WMP? What are these "massive bug reports" of which you speak?
The Dock copied from MS? That was out in NextStep before MS even thought of copying the idea.
Gates doesn't bash Apple because he knows he rips off Apple and many other companies.
"Gates doesn’t bash Apple because he knows he rips off Apple and many other companies."
So Jobs doesn't know he rips off from Microsoft? Ignorant fellow, eh?
-sk-
· 3 years ago
Maybe we should put it this way: Microsoft copies Apple's ideas even before Apple can think of them. There. Are you happy now? We have arrived at a consensus - Microsoft copies Apple. Can you all sleep soundly now?
Diego
· 3 years ago
Microsoft copies Apple. Now that's funny! :D
Infamous
· 3 years ago
Not as funny as Apple being called Innovative. I feel bad for Steve Woz, because Jobs made Apple into an "image" and he still is making Apple's products as an "image."
I had respect for Jobs before the bashing, and my respect for him was that he always tried to create something out of an idea, but all this Miscrosoft bashing has just gone out of hand. He should have left all the bashing for the 13 year old diggers
sean
· 3 years ago
ok apple taking the logical route and offering a way to watch the movies that you buy in the ITMS on your TV. who wants to watch movies on your computer ONLY? VS. microsoft copying spotlight, ical, address book, widgets, mail, safari RSS, even down to the wallpapers, and the overall look.
i can't believe this link was sent to me apple "copying" itv which again is a logical idea now that there are movies in the ITMS vs. microsoft copying the basic look and feel of alot of mac programs and even developing programs that are on a mac that were NEVER on windows
Sean
Ken
· 3 years ago
Woo hoo! What a hoot that was. Took me nearly an hour to read every post but what fun! My thanks to all for a very entertaining show.
To the fanboys on both sides of the fence, RELAX! None of this matters. At all. None of it. Really.
Anyway, it's been a while since I followed a thread like this. Was laughing out loud several times. Really good stuff. Ah well, you've kept me up past my bedtime so I bid you all good night.
Dan
· 3 years ago
"So, who is copying whom? What’s next, a Tablet PC copy?"
"If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft only copies Apple I’m gonna puke."
"They cost $900. But they are simply the best headphones on the market. (...) I got a pair for free last year."
Newsflash: you are an asshole who tries to project some terrible sense of superiority over your fellow human beings, having been unfortunately elevated by a misguided crowd of people. You are an empty shell of a person who can't go more than one or two sentences without writing "I" or "my" or "me"-- you don't care about anyone other than yourself, and thirty years from now you're going to wish that you were a better person when you were younger. You were worth subscribing to, once, before this god-complex took over your everyday journal. Now you're no better than a 15-year-old on Myspace, bragging about his latest toys or whining about other people's contributions to society. Good day.
Scott
· 3 years ago
@ SK : While they've become more popular with individual users, the majority of people who use a Tablet PC don't actually buy one themselves. It's assigned to them as part of the tools they NEED to do their job.
@ Peter: There's nothing wrong with creating products that people need. Many companies have become very successful doing just that.
But the role of computing in people's lives is evolving from NEED to WANT. From balancing your checkbook to creating home videos on DVD. Just making products people NEED isn't enough any more.
Yes, Apple has copied from other companies in the past. But history has clearly shown that Apple leads and the Industry follows.
I think the problem with these x copies y discussions is that most people don't really understand the concept of a well-designed integrated package. This is something that Apple excels at. So what if one detail of the hierarchical menu on the iPod/iTunes is copied/sold/ripped off/inspired by another company.
The iPod is a successful product because every element of it is smoothly integrated between the hardware, the software and the store (and the marketing of course). This is why the typical criticisms like 'why would I buy an iPod when I can get player X that hold 30GB more for $20 less' miss the point. This kind of integration takes years to perfect. In the scheme of the system and concept, an incremental improvement in the UI is simply a natural extension of this overall concept. I don't think it can be compared with a decision by Microsoft to release a Player plus Software plus Store combo. i.e. a 'copy' of a completely conceptualised product against part of a UI. Or the one that made me laugh. 'Not copying because the Zune has a bigger screen'.
After all, let's reverse the roles. Suppose Microsoft had launched the Zune 3 years ago, and it held the position the iPod does now. If Apple launched their competitor it would be game over before it even began. However, with Microsoft they already have a huge built-in advantage because of their userbase. In other words, they don't need to be as innovative as Apple. Microsoft is a business and so there is nothing wrong with that.
I don't think it does Apple any good for Steve Jobs to make these 'sniping' comments. Every knows that Apple is an innovative company. That should be enough.
Shaun
· 3 years ago
Isn't the Microsoft Media Centre interface just an evolution of the Commodore CDTV interface from the late 80s? You know, from back when everyone and their dog was talking up 'convergence'.
Paul
· 3 years ago
@Gareth Thompson —
"How can you say that apple is copying windows. Windows sucks really bad. Look at how long it takes to load compared to a mac."
hey Gareth do you really own a mac? That white screen with an apple logo... its already Mac OS X booting! And it takes 15 sec on my powerbook! After that a fake loading screen will show up.
"Look at the fact that on a pc you need antispyware programs and anti virus, does a mac?"
Yes, Mac got virusses and spyware and some of them are more virulent. Also mac users are more chickens than windows user when it comes to virusses.
"All you guys that lick MS ass just truly suck, all you are doing is paying for a cheap and crap system that crashes and is prone to viruses! Good luck!"
At least they dont lick or a sucker for steve jobs' ball LOL! Well mac are more crap that's why apple switch to intel remember?
"And for all you people “really” excited about Vista, Vista is a copy of APPLE’s OS X, that was brought out in 2000. Apple is always at the forefront of technology."
Why? just because they are the first to copy konfabulator? I think the earliest beta of longhorn already got this functionality, just look at the sidebar thingy. Spotlight? Is that advance? I makes my mac go slowwww!
Shaun
· 3 years ago
I've just read the tech specs on the Zune. OK, the screen IS bigger than the iPod Video, but it's still 320x240 like the iPod. The pixels on the Zune are just bigger. Seems like a silly thing to be arguing about now.
Rich
· 3 years ago
Why are we still having this silly argument?
Yes, Microsoft copies Apple copies Microsoft copies Apple, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
SO WHAT?
Yep. The new iTunes interface vastly resembles WMP. It's also a vast improvement over WMP. This is why competition is good. Apple has a tendency to jump into a market and make existing stuff better. That's what they do best.
SO WHAT?
Microsoft, for all its substantial resources and partners, still can't seem to be "cool". But that doesn't mean they don't drive a lot of innovation.
Look, boys and girls, it's like cars. One company introduces electric locks, another has ABS brakes, another does side-impact air bags. All innovations. Soon, every car has them, someone else gets a new idea, and everyone copies.
It's called "competition". Get over it.
CynicalGeek
· 3 years ago
If Apple is copying Microsoft then Apple's photocopiers are a lot faster. The next release that is a "copy" of Vista will still be a lot cheaper than Vista. This version of the Apple OS looks similar to it's other releases that were released between March 2001, and October 2005. Apple has released 5 versions since then (even though most were not major OS changes.) We can talk about the price of the OS and the number of releases that Apple has had and what it would costs users if they upgraded to each new version. The fact is that most users (Apple) don't need to upgrade, the old version is still usable for them, and still more secure (no matter what the reasons.) I feel that Microsoft can push out any talking points they want but it won't change the fact that Vista will be released far behind schedule. And finally, they have incorporated RSS. We can talk about features and usable programs, but does Vista come with a dictionary yet? While I've completely switched at home to Apple, I will continue to be employed supporting Microsoft machines and my old PC will get Vista RC2 this weekend. It'll probably never see Windows XP Pro again.
Diego
· 3 years ago
"Yes, Mac got virusses and spyware and some of them are more virulent. Also mac users are more chickens than windows user when it comes to virusses."
Where are these viruses? You can't (or shouldn't) use a Windows machine without needing anti-virus and anti-spyware software. You don't need either on a Mac. I haven't seen one Mac user who runs antivirus software. You don't need it. On Windows it's a pain in the ass to have both. Especially for people who are new or inexperienced with computers and having to deal with that crap. Not on Macs.
69. Robert Scoble, "LayZ: I can’t wait for Apple to do a Tablet PC and watch what you say then."
I don't know if Apple will ever come out with a Tablet Mac. If they did I'm guessing it will be as slim as a nano. With software that does a few things that people would want to use a Tablet Mac for very well. They will sell better that every Tablet PC before it. You will then do your Apple copied Microsoft post. About how you don't understand why Tablet PC that are four times the size and are trying to replace Desktop PCs are not doing as well.
The problem Microsoft has with copying is that they rarely improve on what they copy. They Zune may have x or y that the iPod lacks, but I don't think anyone really looks at it and sees a better mp3 player. When the iPod came out most people saw it was an improvement compared to other players. Cost and it being Mac only were the big reasons given for it to fail. Cost prove not to be an issue and Apple fixed the Mac only limitation.
Jorn!
· 3 years ago
"Is Apple copying Microsoft?"
Answer: No
-sk-
· 3 years ago
Say it aloud a hundred times:
"APPLE DOES NOT COPY MICROSOFT. MICROSOFT COPIES APPLE."
There ... now let's try this:
"BUSH IS THE MOST INTELLIGENT PRESIDENT EVER." x100
It works, doesn't it? Now let's try it just one more time to make sure...
"GLOBAL WARMING IS A MYTH!" x100
Do you believe it? Good! Yeah, it's that simple.
Alfredo Octavio
· 3 years ago
Robert, this is a serious question. I really hope you will answer it. If it is true that Play-for-sure content won't play-at-all on the Zune. How do you think the people that bought a player believing the previous Microsoft Hype will feel about Microsoft and the Zune?
Jop
· 3 years ago
The iTV probably looks like a ripoff 'cause they're not showing the real thing. Why? Because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE COPIED.
So, they'll release the real thing when they're ready. Until then, keep it secret and make it look like a typical MS POS.
Jon B
· 3 years ago
Well, its a late comment, but iTV isn't a knock off of Media PCs, its just a iPod for your TV... that's it. No TV recording, playback, expandability, etc.
Give me a Tivo any day. I can stream content from my PC, record tv, etc.
Give me a Media PC any day. I can do everything iTV can do, record tv, pause and rewind live tv, etc.
Come on this was the furthest thing from innovative I've seen come out of Apple.
umair
· 3 years ago
i think apple is much better than microsoft .. and if they need to copy microsoft ... why are they copying now ... microsoft is copying apple in ipod field ?
MJ
· 3 years ago
The iTV interface is just FrontRow which looks more like the iPod interface than Windows Media Centre. Seeing as CREATIVE holds the patent there, it kinda makes your diatribe a little....um....pathetic.
Now....get off the subject of trying to defend Microsoft. You don't work there any more, you can't do it with sincerity anyway (because in your heart of hearts you know it's crap) and get back to the stuff you do best! Tell us about cool stuff (and okay....rae about Zune if you must....even if we don' know whether it'll be cool or not)
atma
· 3 years ago
Microsoft is not copying apple, it's too fucked up to do even that...
Jeff Watson
· 3 years ago
Honestly, everyone: this whole Mac vs. PC thing is, well, pathetic. These are just two large companies writing software that is pretty amazing however its come into existence. We all make consumer choices based on what we need and what we think is going to work best for us as individuals. It's not religion, it's not philosophy. It's nuts and bolts. How about spending time worrying about more pressing issues like, oh, I don't know...your mortality or something.
And yes, I'm aware that I'M taking a moment out of my life to comment on this post, but I can justify it by saying I'm doing it in the interests of the public good. ;-)
Ananth
· 3 years ago
Apple is not new to "borrowing". They are copying DTrace and ZFS from Sun for their Leopard release.
arick
· 3 years ago
Nah ah... don't even complain. Apple DOES NOT copy Microsoft. All y'all Microsoft fans are trying to find some reason to hate Apple 'cause y'all know that you've been COPYING Apple for years now! One similar thing, and you guys are all over Apple... how many things has Microsoft copied? Huh? Vista's "new features" look amazingly similar to OS X Tiger's features... (quizical look)
metacode
· 3 years ago
They both copied Xerox to start, so why does it even matter who copies who? What does matter is that Apple is doing it better than anyone else right now. The iPod, iTMS, OS X and the switch to Intel chips. Its only a matter of time until Apple supplants Microsoft.
Chrono Cr@cker
· 3 years ago
It's a two way process, both MS and Apple have "borrowed" each others technologies way back from 1984, so, they would be wise to stop this catfight.
David
· 3 years ago
Apple equals inovation. Microsoft equals inovation. Lets stop "measure" it and start working together to make computers smarter, faster, and easier.
euso
· 3 years ago
I hate the new iTunes UI, it looks like a bad copy of a lame Windows Vista theme. Specially the iPod manager. If this is a taste of Leopard, i'm sticking with Tiger. I'm an icon and UI designer, so I know when Apple fucks stuff up. And this is a great example.
Paul
· 3 years ago
"I haven’t seen one Mac user who runs antivirus software" Ever wonder why? Because they cause more trouble!
It's a SHIT! Ur already infected then the supposed to be a "cure" is also a shit! DANG!
Robert Hoover
· 3 years ago
TO John C. Welch and Robert Scoble:
I'm a SME at Microsoft and am in the middle of writing a whitepaper on Windows Media Center Extensibility for Windows Vista.
Windows Media Center has sold over 16 million units to date, with an additional 1 million per month.
Apple has what? 2% of the desktop OS market? They copied the idea for integrated search and merely implemented it faster in their "new OS" (which BTW we call a service pack), and dashboard was merely a nicely implemented copy of Konfabulator.
Microsoft improves upon concepts for productivity purposes, and has enough foresight to come up with great concepts like Windows Media Center, and Tablet PC. We believe and have a passion for innovation, and improvement, and our dominance of the market proves this.
Dont forget that Microsoft bailed Apple out by investing 150 million in apple stock in 1997. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxOp5mBY9IY Also, keep in mind that Microsoft owns the patent to the iPod clickwheel, but as a result of the 1997 5 year agreement Microsoft lets apple use that on their iPod architecture.
Do you honestly think that if Microsoft Office for MAC was not around in the past 5 years apple would have sold well? Go into any Apple store and listen to a salesperson try to sell a Macbook to a college student. It is one of the main selling points for the platform apple has their salespeople use.
Now I'm not anti-apple, I own a 17inch PowerBook G4 which I had Office 12 running on in a Windows VPC this time last year. Apple is definitely a great company with things to offer, but to say that Microsoft copies from them all the time is just an ignorant remark.
There are many Microsoft employees who use Apple hardware, and more than a few offices on Redmond campus that have iMAC's in them. We arent one-tack people, we know how to take the best of everything and put it to use, and that is what is great about Microsoft, its not just a bunch of buildings, it's the employees in them that bring their passion to the workplace.
Thank you...
Robert Hoover
· 3 years ago
P.S. The Microsoft Mac Business Unit is the worlds largest provider of OSX software outside of Apple itself.
MJ
· 3 years ago
HooverMan wrote: >I’m a SME at Microsoft This is meant to make us trust you?
>Windows Media Center has sold over 16 million units to date Probably. But irrelevant.
>Apple has what? 2% of the desktop OS market Trollbait!
>They copied the idea for integrated search and merely implemented it faster Apple has had "next generation Search" since before MICRO-SOFT "invented" the Internet. Those of us with an interest in computing had used VTwin long ago, saw it as it morphed into Sherlock and again we see Spotlight. So who exactly did they COPY it from? MICRO-SOFT? Bwahahahahah.
>in their “new OS” (which BTW we call a service pack), and Really? What you call ServicePacks - do they actually add brand new features or do they just fix the problems with the promised features that don't work. I mean...XP SP2 is apparently the dogs bollocks but.....why did they need SP1....and what fantastic features did they add? Anything like Spotlight? Exposé? CoreVideo? Don't think so.
>dashboard was merely a nicely implemented copy of Konfabulator. Blaarp. Konfabulator was a prettified way of displaying what we called Desktop Accessories in the olden days. Heck, even CDE had active widgets. Did Apple copy them?
>Microsoft improves upon concepts for productivity purposes, Are you sure you can name any great ones?
>and has enough foresight to come up with great concepts like Windows Media Center, Blaarp. I had TV on my Mac in 1998. Built in. Not as a third party add-on.
> and Tablet PC. Uh...MICRO-SOFT invented the Tablet PC? Do they make that KoolAid in grape?
>Dont forget that Microsoft bailed Apple out >if Microsoft Office for MAC was not around >Microsoft lets apple use that on their iPod architecture
Your closing argument is to tell us that MICRO-SOFT doesn't copy Apple. I think Apple and MICRO-SOFT both copy from each other and from other things. It's not a bad thing. But you read like a Mirosoft shill.
My problem with MICRO-SOFT is simple.
They hire the smartest people in the world. They have more money than everyone in the world. They have access to the best resources in the world.
And Windows still annoys the nipples off me due to stupid decisions. It's taken them this long to ditch DOS (is Monad still shipping in VISTA?) Why do they ignore design principles when putting together a UI? Who let the "ribbon" concept through? Someone must have really liked it up top and forced that one through. I hear nothing but complaints about it as a UI concept.
MICRO-SOFT has all of this cool stuff and still, they manage to suck majorly at some things. Why is that?
arick
· 3 years ago
"MICRO-SOFT has all of this cool stuff and still, they manage to suck majorly at some things. Why is that?" --MJ
Yay MJ!!!
And Robert Hoover, get some facts strait. Apple owns more than 2% market share, it is closer to 10% now. Konfabulator was released AFTER dashboard for poser PC-users. And why is it that Windows is being constantly attacked by viruses and hackors, and Apple not? Could it be (gasp) that Apple has BETTER security than Windows?! (GASP!!)
Robert Hoover
· 3 years ago
>> They hire the smartest people in the world. Well, no just because I'm a SME doesnt mean you should trust me. The fact that Microsoft hired me is good enough.
I noticed that you didnt touch the facts about Microsoft bailing Apple out with 150 million dollars and a 5 year agreement that allowed Apple to make use of Microsoft's clickwheel patent, and have Office for Mac software to help boost market sales. Microsoft is not a bad company, it is just as you say,
>>They hire the smartest people in the world. >>They have more money than everyone in the world. >>They have access to the best resources in the world.
Everything is very bureaucratic, and to get something done requires the input and "okaying" of many groups, business units, and corporate management. That is the only reason productivity has been watered down, and Windows Vista has been in development for over 4 years.
I agree that the copying goes back and forth. I also believe it is a positive thing to improve on ideas. I do however find it blatently rude that Apple accuses Microsoft of copying when it does so itself. They simply dont have the innovation market cornered as they like to portray to their minions at WWDC.
I also like to point out that Microsoft does not do competetive marketing, EVER! They will never slander another product publicly as Apple seems to do.
I think that one of Microsoft's stupid decisions that you so aptly mention was actually supporting Apple when they were down for the count.
Robert Hoover
· 3 years ago
>>And Robert Hoover, get some facts strait. Apple >>owns more than 2% market share, it is closer to >>10% now.
Show me a recent study to support that. Then I'll stand corrected, until then I suggest you limit your comments to verifiable evidence.
"And why is it that Windows is being constantly attacked by viruses and hackors, and Apple not? Could it be (gasp) that Apple has BETTER security than Windows?! (GASP!!)"
Well it only tells us one thing --> Mac is a crap! that even virus writer dont want to create virusses for it! LOL! They have the same reason why software dev dont create too much app for the mac --> coz it only got a handful of users!
Also it's not the right way to measure how 'secure' your os is!
Robert Hoover
· 3 years ago
>>And why is it that Windows is being constantly attacked by viruses and hackors, and Apple not? Could it be (gasp) that Apple has BETTER security than Windows?! (GASP!!)
I just cant pass this one up... Perhaps its because Apple users dont HAVE anything that hackers want? With only 2.3 percent of the desktop market(as stated in the above independant study), it doesnt make much business sense to make a malware-product when you can get a much better return on a virus or worm that can infect 96% of the worlds desktops...
Also, with Windows Vista, security is superior to OS X's due to the secure user environment. Even Joanna Rutkowska couldnt hack Vista with her impressive Blue Pill without having that feature disabled, or having the user allow the installation.
I'm am now done responding on this thread because you obviously are close-minded and no amount of evidence or logic will allow you to see past a bias to the larger picture.
Paul
· 3 years ago
"Konfabulator was a prettified way of displaying what we called Desktop Accessories in the olden days."
Konfabulator is more of a framework! and Apple copied that concept!
arick
· 3 years ago
>>Also, with Windows Vista, security is superior to OS X’s due to the secure user environment. Even Joanna Rutkowska couldnt hack Vista with her impressive Blue Pill without having that feature disabled, or having the user allow the installation.
Yeah, well let's just see, aight? Hackers are constantly evolving. They'll find a way.
And Apple computers don't have anything? Yeah right. Hollywood studios and news stations use Final Cut on Apple computers. If you wanted to hack and find a prereleased movie, you hack an Apple. Design companies all use Apple.
Too bad you can't hack an Apple because it's just more SECURE than a Windows.
-sk-
· 3 years ago
"Hollywood studios and news stations use Final Cut on Apple computers. "
I thought most of the animation etc. was done on Linux???!!?
"And Robert Hoover, get some facts strait. Apple owns more than 2% market share, it is closer to 10% now."
"Apple is definitely a great company with things to offer, but to say that Microsoft copies from them all the time is just an ignorant remark."
I agree. Apple is definitely a great and innovative company. They have a great line of computers and mp3 players - no doubt about that. But, to say that there's no innovation at Microsoft and they only copy Apple is very arrogant, uninformed, and stupid. And it's not just the users, Steve Jobs himself makes those comments. That's the problem I have with the company. Either the top level management is not aware of it or they think attack is the best form of defense - accuse MS of copying before they can so that, even if MS's software predates your by over a year in some cases, people will still think they've copied it from you.
arick
· 3 years ago
"I thought most of the animation etc. was done on Linux???!!?"
News stations and many live programs use Final Cut.
Brian Shapiro
· 3 years ago
“MICRO-SOFT has all of this cool stuff and still, they manage to suck majorly at some things. Why is that?” –MJ
Microsoft, because of its different market, has different design initiatives than Apple; for instance, it has to keep backwards compatibility, and it has to support drivers. At the same time they weren't as concerned as necessary with security because the Internet was relatively new and they were focusing on user experience. The problem they've had over the years is that they make a big effort to upgrade certain things then fall behind on other thinsg, etc.
James
· 3 years ago
Brian stated: "Microsoft, because of its different market, has different design initiatives than Apple; for instance, it has to keep backwards compatibility, and it has to support drivers."
Apple also has had to maintain backwards compatibility, otherwise there would be no reason to include the Classic environment or Rosetta in Mac OS X. Apple also has to suppport drivers. There is no difference in design initiatives there between Apple and Microsoft.
"At the same time they weren’t as concerned as necessary with security because the Internet was relatively new and they were focusing on user experience. The problem they’ve had over the years is that they make a big effort to upgrade certain things then fall behind on other thinsg, etc."
I like how an FM tuner is listed as a feature! Does anyone even listen to the radio anymore? Why listen to annoying DJ's talk about the dinner they had with their mother last night while sitting through a male sexual enhancement commercial. If my mp3 player had this "feature" I would like to find a way to permanently disable it.
Sean Hattaway
· 3 years ago
All I can say is that Apple came first with new ideas, and I prefer Steve Jobs to Bill Gates. The only reason I see why Microsoft has become more profitable is because they're very good in marketing and reaping money. I guess we can see here the huge difference of being the inventor and being the marketer.
Thomas Spencer
· 3 years ago
Microsoft was helping to launch Apple when it came out. Now their enimies, but i have a few design ideas that would make windows look a tinsy bit better, in fact everyone has ideas. Instead of letting the dexters do the designing i think they should let the people put in suggestions. Also, windows should get rid of their large hard drive. i heard somewhere that the reason they have alot of large hard drives because they need new computers able to run old programs. I also think thats why microsoft computers are so vulnerable, they keep old technology that people already know how to read like a childs book. Anyone know if they have any place where i can place suggestions for microsoft computers?
Jonathan Fatu
· 3 years ago
i put someone elses name, sorry i don't trust the internet. now i do because i see my post.
It is nice to hear people like you blahbing about issues that they don't understand. My only take on this issue is for you to find out from Microsoft where it obtained the licence for the Media Center look. Apple of course. History shows that back in the 80's when Apple was in hot water, it licenced its GUI (visual displays)to Microsoft. Sculley was Apple CEO at the time. Apple later sued Microsoft to invalidate the licence, but the court ruled in favor of Microsoft citing that it was legitimate business deal and cannot be revoked. Today Microsoft acts like it invented it. The fact is that Microsoft never in its entire history invented anything. It always buys or bullies its way into other people's ideas. So next time you want to talk of Apple copying Microsoft, just remember that if it wasn't for Apple licence to Microsoft, unfortunate Windows fans like you will still be hacking your keyboards without a mouse. If it wasn;t for Apple, there will be no Windows or Vista. Get the facts on technology. This is a not pouplarity contest!
Jeff Sloan
· 2 years ago
The iPod is a nicely built device. I got a shuffle for Christmas. iTunes sucks. Why does it have to format my Shuffle when i plug it into a different machine? So, If I buy music on one PC i cant transfer it to my notebook? My daughter wanted a Zune for Christmas so I got her one. The jury is still out, but the screeen is awesome, and she likes it better than the iPod. I have a Zen Vision/M that I think is better than either but now I have screen envy. Here is a clue for some of you people. Microsoft does something that makes Steve Jobs shake in his boots. They Write an OS that runs on hardware built by a plethora of different manufacturers.
IMHO Apple would do themselves a favor to open their OS up and let it be loaded on any PC as well as building their machines so that any OS could be loaded on them.
Mac Advocate
· 2 years ago
This lie of story goes to show are smart all of you idiots really are. Apple TV (not iTV) is similar, if not identical to the Front Row application available on Mac computers. Front Row was created BEFORE Windows Media Center. Apple copied, but not off Microsoft. They used the same design and UI that they previously created for Front Row. It looks like Microsoft copied off of Apple's Front Row with Windows Media Center.
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Mac Advocate: Media Center came before Front Row. I believe you have your facts WAY wrong there.
777lin
· 2 years ago
I have a friend that works for Apple, they work on ideas for 2 years or so before the tell any one. Microsoft is smart if you think about it, they hear roomers of what Apple, Google, Sun, Yahoo are doing and over night through together a non-working model of it, then report that they have been coming up with it for the past year.
Then when Apple, Google, Sun, or Yahoo release what they have been working on for the past year then they look like the copied M$. One big poker game, oddly enough Bill gates favorite game!
Another point: If linux, Unix, and Apple have already gone there then what can M$ do, if M$ and Unix have already made it the can Apple do. Are they going to just avoid it, like Apples Spotlight, I love it, but give M$ a break they used it in Vista. Give Apple a break, so they made a media center that looks similar to XP Media Center. Sometimes you look like to copied to stay in the race. I never heard any one complaing about other car makers making cars that look like a Matrix. What about when for came out with there answer to the Surbin, no one walked around saying ford copied chevy.
P.S. Good artists copy, great artists steal!
Curtis
· 2 years ago
Windows Sucks. It Always Has Errors. Vista Is A Flop. Mac Never Has Any Problems. Steve Did The Right Thing By Making A PERSON'S COMPUTER Rather Then A Personal Computer(full of holes) PC Also Stands For 'P'iece of 'C'rap End Of Story.
Continue What You Do Best Steve, And Watch Out Bill.
John
· 2 years ago
the new leopard tries to copy the clear vista look with the dock and the task bar. they also copied linux work spaces and windows desktop manager. its too bad they make everything better. sorry to say, its just that apple makes their products soo much better that no one would want to get rid of it. they also do touch phones better, but it scratches and breaks easily i heard.
Kris G
· 2 years ago
Haha, a couple of instances! I could fill a book with the rip offs microsoft has stolen from Apple. They innovate far more than any other computer and OS company. And they have only 10 percent of the market share. Go on Apple, if it wasnt for you they may not even be personal computers.
chad
· 6 months ago
here is a nice quote from above... "If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft ONLY copies Apple I’m gonna puke." So basically you, the author admitted that Microsoft copies Apple but not only Apple, but many hardworking, honest companies.
All Comments
Hehe.
Thankfully they don't copy Microsoft's product names.
The Zune is the latest example. And Microsoft still thinks that forcing people to use Windows is going to make the Zune succesful. Good luck there. The Windows Media UI copying iTunes. etc.
Oh, let us not forget the blatant lying from the WM team: "Windows Media is MORE OPEN than iTunes". But leaving out "As long as you only ever use WIndows, because, after all, Open is spelled Windows"
Yeah. Good job there. Then Microsoft wonders why everyone assumes Ballmer and the rest are lying every time they open their mouths. Well, we've learned from their example.
You also predicted a media center being announced at the WWDC, and were quite the pinhead towards everyone who said "No, that's not the event for them to announce such a thing", all waving your "I KNOW PEOPLE" penis. Looked real good there man.
How are the media center sales as a percentage of all PC sales? I can tell you in KC, they aren't flying off the shelves. But then again, to you, the country is the west coast, NYC, and Vegas. Then you wonder why outside of your little fan club, no one cares about tablets, or media centers. Maybe it's because most people have better things to spend $4K on than a friggin' TV.
The cluelessness of your crowd of sycophants is so amusing.
>>The Zune is the latest example.
It has a much bigger screen than iPod. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has Wifi, which the iPod doesn't have. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has a subscription music service so you don't have to pay a buck to listen to a song. Did they copy THAT from Apple?
>>You also predicted a media center being announced at the WWDC
Well, I also apologized and said I was wrong. I guess you missed that post.
>How are the media center sales as a percentage of all PC sales?
When I worked at Microsoft I looked it up. Media Center is installed on about 30% of the PCs sold today. Now, very few of those have tuners, but that's not what you just asked.
"If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft only copies Apple I’m gonna puke."
That is true. They don't only copy Apple. They also copy Google, Yahoo!... oh way too many others to mention. Just look at how many times you see news stories about Microsoft releasing their version of something someone else has done. Microsoft is the new Xerox.
Yeah right!! As if there weren't mp3 players before iPod. As if Apple was the first company to come up with the iTV concept. As if Apple didn't copy Xerox's gui interface in the first place. From whom did Microsoft copy the idea for Media Center? What about WiFi in Zune? What about showing album covers in WMP 11?
At least Xerox had PARC.
Vinnie: what is there to say about it? Why don't you start up a blog and I'll link to a post about it.
- Spotlight
- Dashboard
- Expose
- Time Machine
- Fast User Switching (don't remember what Apple calls it)
- iPod
- Front Row
Besides, that statement is wrong on its face, because Microsoft certainly copies plenty of other companies besides Apple!
"Imitation is the lifeblood of competition."
Google does ts fair share of copying these days (especially of Microsoft). Yahoo to a much lesser extent; I consider them the most original of the 3 "portals" or however you would classify them.
The only difference is Apple will probably actually deliver come 1Q-07.
Jobs is playing hard-ball. And good for him.
The whole music store and music player combination. Did they copy that from Apple? Yes. Microsoft again coming in late to a game. Copy what they can and just throw money at it.
Subscription is the inferior model. I don't want to have to keep on paying someone to listen to music. I want /my/ music. So I pay for it and own it. I stop paying and I have no music to listen to? That's an inferior model.
No. They just release great products.
Copy or not, a lot of Vista's features are compelling over its predecessor. So, why should people care if they copied those features (and many of them, by the way, they didn't)? Look at OS X, so many of its features are copies, but they're useful features! I see no reason to complain about it. People are way too freaking insecure.
Oh, I see other things that Apple doesn't have in its iPod. http://www.zunerama.com/#060912_newipod_story
Like an FM tuner.
Really? Wild. Well, wake me up when I have a Tablet PC that I can draw right on the screen running OSX. Or, when I have a real media center, not this lame copy called iTV.
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I recently did some surveys where we found that less than half of those with Media Center PCs *knew* they had them, and a tiny fraction actually took advantage of the Media Center specific features.
More on-topic:
I gotta totally agree with you Robert. You know I'm a huge Apple fan, but not all good ideas Apple has had came from within the company (to put it nicely).
I'm about to puke on hearing *anyone* is copying anyone. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more of it. Companies are going to develop and innovate in parallel, there is bound to be duplication, but even beyond that, I like the idea of good ideas being improved upon.
I have three versions of Windows preinstalled on my machines at home and I never used it - but I'm included in "market numbers"...
When looking at MSN site stuff I just have to laugh reading something like this from MS (friend/employee/...). - or puke?
I'm speechless. It's even worse than I thought.
Didn't know that Robert. Still, from a personal point of view I would never subscribe to music. I'd rather own it. Then again, I didn't know you could buy it too using WMP because I don't know anyone who has anything other than iPods.
"Oh, I see other things that Apple doesn’t have in its iPod. http://www.zunerama.com/#060912_newipod_story
Like an FM tuner. "
You gotta beat the combination of iPod + iTunes and the cool look too. Clamping on an FM Tuner and Wifi will not do it, in my opinion.
Do these Tablet PCs actually exist? Haven't seen them used by many people, except pictures of them on web sites. You think they'll pick up in popularity or remain a niche market? ;)
Who else was with you that day Scoble!!
Geeez Louise.
Just call me chicken fucking liver.
The Media Center plus Extender model is exactly what they're copying with iTV, minus the TV recording feature (perhaps because they want everyone to purchase it from iTunes). Do I care that they copied the UI? Not at all, except to the extent that I'm so tired of them making such a big deal about Microsoft copying them, and then never acknowledging when they're the ones copying--just like at the WWDC keynote, where they made many rather unprofessional remarks about their competition copying them, then went on to talk about many features they themselves were copying, without batting an eye. I've never seen Microsoft take potshots at Apple at a keynote. It comes across as pretty desperate, honestly.
A few clarifications:
- Google has some cool things, but a lot of their innovations lately have been purchased.
- #4: Tell me how I can license Fairplay, and then you can tell me iTunes is more "open."
- #11: Not that I'm against bridging the digital divide by any means, but for example, India rejected Negroponte's idea: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/.... They worry about the "conceptual vacuum in which the scheme is being propagated." Not all developing nations think it's such a wise idea.
- #17: Media Center has been available for years.
- #18: The Media Center UI has nothing to do with the Creative UI.
- #19: You don't "own" your music with iTunes, either. Subscription may be inferior for you, but can't others decide for themselves? Isn't choice a good thing? Definitely true that Microsoft is late to the game, though.
- #21: Will people ever give up on that debunked argument? Microsoft introduced a lot of updates to XP since 2001, but the difference was they didn't *charge* for them. They also released several different editions of XP; they have hardly been standing still. As Robert said, where's Apple's Tablet PC?
- #28: I agree. Microsoft has done nothing to market Media Center, so they aren't helping raise awareness of the feature.
Jobs makes the point because in the minds of the average person it holds true. Yes, borrowing occurs on both sides, and yes, Apple has gotten good features from Microsoft. But more often the significant and major copying of Microsoft from Apple occurs when they are going in the wrong direction and need to correct course. Or, after Apple simply does something quite original and clever. (Even if we say Apple copies MS, MC has its own precedents, etc...)
You are throwing out the silliest throw-in features of Zune. Did MS claim the iPod would fail, that the model was wrong, that it's plan was right for almost FIVE YEARS? Did they get their ass kicked and decide to correct course by copying Apple in terms of controlling the store, app, and hardware, locking out partners, and claiming that a tight, vertical solution that's easy to use without a fractured community of device manufacturers and partners is the way to go? To MS copy the simple color scheme, basic aesthetics, and even scroll wheel (even though it isn't a scroll wheel)?
But, oooh, oooh, Zune is original because they are throwing in the top 3 rumors of the last three years that Apple hasn't implemented solely because they think the timing is incorrect. You're right, Zune is so original and copying the TiVo interface is evil and unoriginal. But Microsoft is still the more pathetic and "copying"-est of the two companies.
a) Why is it pathetic?
b) Prove that Microsoft copies more than anyone else.
You ever seen the video where Vista is demo'd with all OSX utilities? It's uncanny. And regardless, Apple still does a better job at UI design.
Jobs is losing his mojo. I think he should copy Bill and join the philanthropy work in Africa
- #4: Tell me how I can license Fairplay, and then you can tell me iTunes is more “open.
For me, I can use iTunes on my macs and on my Bro's PC.
I can't use Windows media player at all.
"open" is null for me.
Also . the majority rip content to itunes, so i do own my contnent, especially my originals and my friends OG's.
This thread is more suited to /.
Yes I have and the silly thing about it is that the features talked about in Vista often times had absolutely nothing to do with the feature showed in OS X (alt-tab behavior, for one). Also, many of those features in OS X were themselves copies of something else, for example, Dashboard and Spotlight.
Dave, show us! Show us! :)
"Diego: more than a million are selling every year."
Hmmm... that's more than the number of MacBook Pro machines that will be sold this year. Do MacBook Pros actually exist?
Then lawyers came along, "intellectual property" (just the term makes me gag) became an issue, marketeers tagged on, and here we are.
ps. I'm too lazy to go watch all these videos, couldn't you just post a comparison screenshot or something?
Maybe not completely own it in that I can't share it around other non-iPod players etc.. FairPlay has something to say about this. I can listen to it on multiple machines, iPods and I can also burn the music to a CD. But if don't have to continue paying to listen to it. I can listen to it forever. In the subscription (extortion) model I have nothing. That's why, again just my opinion, it's better than subscriptions.
Although, at the moment the subscription model may be worth it. With Window Media's DRM being cracked; get a month's subscription, download all you can eat, crack it and own it. :)
But alas, this OS/music/media-center religious war is getting too wild. Lets bring religion in to this? Mine’s better than yours! :)
You don't get me. I pass around the shit to everyone, and I pass around the praise to everyone as I see fit too.
They don't even need to pay me.
And you can use WMP on both Macs and Windows. Similarly, both stink on the opposite platform--WMP on OS X bites, and iTunes on Windows bites. I'm certainly not the first to suggest that Apple *wants* iTunes to be a bit flaky and doggy on Windows so it can be an incentive to switch.
What besides security and bug fixes have they delivered? XP still looks the same to me as it did since 2001. All the stuff that's changed, been updated or is cool are applications from non-Microsoft companies. Desktop search? Google Desktop. Photo app: Picasa. IM: Yahoo Messenger. Email: Thunderbird. and so on, and on. Developer tools certainly have been great from MS. And I use Office. But that hasn't changed for ages too. I hear the new version has ribbons. But XP? Nothing much has changed.
Microsoft are no longer developing Windows Media Player on the Mac. Or so I believe to be the case.
True. :) Though we might as well take a stroll through the iTunes cafeteria as well, then, as FairPlay was similarly recently cracked.
I think I'll just sit down at the piano now and play awhile... as long as the piano doesn't mind, I'm going to call it MINE! ;) Not that anyone else would want it, anyways....
First of all, Vista was built on the codebase of Windows Server 2003, not XP. So that tells you something right there. There's a whole separate OS inside Microsoft from XP. Should that count as coming from the Windows team? Yes.
Then, there's the Tablet PC Edition. Has all sorts of new handwriting recognition and navigation stuff. Has been updated at least twice.
Then, there's the Windows Media Center which has all sorts of stuff to play media. Pictures, video, audio, that kind of stuff. It's been updated three times that I know about with major changes each time.
Both of those are getting rolled into Vista, by the way.
Oh, and Windows Service Pack 2 included an update for Wireless too. So it wasn't just a security and bug fix thing. But, I don't think that's the kind of major deal that would help make my point, so we can leave that off the table.
bluvg, that is true. But with the iTunes version you actually have to play all your music while it cracks it. While the WMP one does it almost instantly. So you'll get a lot more music in that month's worth of subscription. :)
A few million is comparable to Apple's sales, though. So, yes indeed, look out, Apple.
total crap.
1. I own 4 computers, two macs, two windows boxes. itunes works just as well on all 4 machines. i would say that flaky drivers on the part of your PC is a more likely cause of the problem than the "grand conspiracy of apple" to cripple their software on the largest OS platform in the world. do you even realize how absurd that suggestion is?
2. there is a major difference between WMP and itunes. there is no content available in itunes nor is there any ipod sold that does not work equally well on both windows and osx. apple goes to great lengths to make sure that you can buy music and movies on both platform with equal ease.
not true for zune/plays4sure. doesn't work at ALL on osx. microsoft didnt even bother. secondly, none of the subscription based services or amazon's unboxed video store work on the mac. again, itunes works on both platform equally.
3. before you launch into a whole thing about apple's small market share let me remind you of the large (and growing) marketshare of apple computers in the student population. i have been in higher-education for 6 years now and i see more macs and ipods every year. these sorts of services are targeted to young kids, not to the giant business enterprises that windows dominates in. ignoring a fairly prominent platform for young people is the biggest mistake microsoft is making here.
4. i should add that mac users were unable to play movies encoded in WMP9 because MS hasnt updated WMP for OSX since Nov 7, 2003. In fact, rather than update the software MS purchased a company which makes a buggy quicktime plugin which constantly berates you to upgrade to some "pro" version just to play back a video file from 2003.
very different outcome than the h.264 MP4 files i create in quicktime that can be played on macs, in windows, on linux (via VLC) and even beos.
Good. Cuz no one cares about renting music. And it's also great that you have WIfi. Nothin like a 20 minute battery life to sink an underdog player.
Anything else.. oh yeah.. no scrollwheel, and ... MS just knifed their 'partners'...
It matters very little to the consumer as long as they end up with a great product to use.
As far as my concerns... lets the companies keep at it, as long as I end up getting a better price per performance ratio out of whatever I buy from them.
That's the problem... if people don't see UI changes, they figure nothing has changed. And the more the UI changes, the more they figure something is new. For example, if the XP UI was unchanged in Vista, despite the myriad changes under the hood, you'd see the CNets, PC Mags, et al declare it "essentially XP SE." With Apple, it's UI first, and let the rest catch up--witness the essentially unusable 64-bit support in 10.4, the lousy threading model of BSD-on-Mach, ACLs only appearing in 10.4 (and even then only via CLI on the client--very user-friendly, indeed), etc.
You name a lot of free add-ons, but I could make a very similar list of apps for the Mac that were first available elsewhere, and then made available by Apple. The difference? Apple charged for them. And again, where's the Tablet PC? You know without a doubt that if Steve Jobs had keynoted this instead of Microsoft, the Apple faithful would have gasped, fainted, broke into rapturous applause, and rubbed it in everyone else's face for the past several years. But Microsoft introduces it and updates it, and they're dismissed as having stood still.
Is that out yet?
IS the implemenation like cover flow that is out now on itunes?
I dont know, I'm asking.
like above, Yawn.
Charlie Owen who works on Media Center team at Microsoft wraps up a bunch of different blogs talking about these issues here: http://blog.retrosight.com/PermaLink,guid,6267d...
I think Zune has got to be one of the ugliest pieces of hardware I have ever seen.
http://sdpurtill.wordpress.com/2006/09/14/the-m...
I agree with sdpurtill that from the pics Zune looks pretty ugly. Is that only a decoy?
I don't hate Microsoft. Hate is a strong word. A lot of their products are very uninspiring to me, that's all. Not all of them though. I think their developer tools and technologies are very good. Visual Studio, C#, .NET, etc. Their end-user applications and the OS just doesn't do it for me. So don't take my multiple posts here as hatemongering. I'm just enjoying the chatter on this topic and don't take it seriously. :)
You're right also about comparing WMP for OS X to iTunes for Windows--it's comparing apples to oranges. WMP for OS X can play Windows Media 9 format content, though--the WMP version is version 9. However, not all WM9 format codecs are supported.
Hopefully Flip4Mac will be improved. I doubt Microsoft will start to update WMP for OS X again, since the Mac community tends to harbor animosity towards their products and avoid them, and also because Mac users would almost certainly pick iTunes over a true WMP update. It would be nice if they at least offered a full codec set with a lean, solid player.
For what it's worth, though, I agree with sk--the Zune is not very attractive, from the pictures I've seen. And from what I've read, I don't see any killer feature. Maybe I'm missing something? FM tuner? No big deal (actually, am I the only one on the planet that would want an **AM**/FM tuner?). Sharing music via WiFi? How does that help me if everyone else has an iPod?
It's no good if it's something shown internally and it's not released in a product for end-users. I saw a 3D rendered OS UI years ago, in public, in OS X which everyone could see and use. That's coming in Vista too, right? ;)
BTW, not sure if this was mentioned in this thread but Apple did not do Cover Flow. They bought it from someone else: http://www.steelskies.com/coverflow/
CoverFlow has been around for over a year. So I wouldn't say Microsoft come up with the idea. Maybe someone at MS saw CoverFlow and copied it. :)
Exactly. What good is that feature when almost everyone around you will have an iPod? Considering that the XBox team is working on it and that Microsoft is up against the iPod, the Zune looks disappointing. Unless they're working on some killer features in Redmond, I'd rather buy another iPod.
You'd buy a Zune if you wanted to be the dorky kid at school who's got the clunky looking music player. Then you'd buy it. Otherwise you'd get an iPod which all your friends have.
River of News? ;)
Just in case you are throwing a rock at Apple, admit that EVERYBODY is ripping everybody, and even you Scoble seem to participate in this idiot game. Rock on !
Robert: I'm still not sold on the River of News idea. Maybe I just need to give it time. Like a lot fo Dave's ideas it sometimes takes a while for the lightbulb to burn bright.
On a serious note, what is the last BIG original thing? Anyone? I don't have an answer either. People are either copying or adding on anymore with very little innovation. Sure, Microsoft or Apple copy from each other, Linux, or some good shareware, but when was the last serious "Holy ____, I didn't know computers could do that moment?"
And people wonder why I'm bitter... >:(
i most of the time have the feeling whatever microsoft introduces as new has been around for 4 or 5 years. you don't need examples, do you?
pity once i thought microsoft invented the GUI.
and copying these tiny things is not much of importance. maybe if apple had been copying, i could joy playing with macs.
Media Centers UI looks nothing like Front Row. Are you serious? The IDEA of Front Row does stem heavily from MCE, but the implementation is quite different.
And the sales shit doesnt mean much either. OEMs bundle MCE with their PCs. But how many consumers use them for that fashion? Hint; I dont know a single person who does.
Zune has some cool shit, and stuff that Apple will invariably release on its iPod/iTunes. But thats the nature of the business. What I will say though is that we at MS are ten times the size of Apple in terms of resources that are put into our products. But the rate of innovation Apple produce that we take from them is wildly disproportionate to our innovations that Apple takes, especially in light of said size of the companies.
However the differences are how the two companies leverage features: Under the Media Center UI is the behemoth of Windows with all the functionality of windows and the admin overheads that goes with it.
Apple have taken the less is more route. It doesn't need the capability to run Office because I don't need that under my TV, it doesn't need to be patched because somebody could potentially exploit a hole in some other area of functionality that I don't need under my TV. It simply bridges the gap between the PC and the TV set which when it comes down to it is all anyone has been asking for.
"You copied us!"
"No, you copied US!"
The simple fact of the matter is that competitors copy each other in order to stay competitive, its a fairly obvious business tactic.
Take cup holders in cars. They all have them. Who had them first, and who copied? Who cares. Do they argue about it all the time? (Well, maybe they do on the Ford Focus discussion boards but I think it's unlikely).
This leads into patenting features -- again, it's a simple business tactic to get a competitive edge.
So we have an arms race -- create a new feature and patent it. Competitors will add a new feature similar enough to regain competitive edge, dissimilar enough to get past the patent courts (hopefull).
There's no point getting into a pissing contest about it.
Herbie
I love a good punch up. It's great when everyone comes out of the woodwork on both sides of the fence.
For the record, I couldn't give a shit who copied who or who's more evil than who. I just like to use something that gets the job done! Maybe some of these kids will realise that when they grow up.
;)
As a lot of your articles have been Robert. Not a majority at all, but a significant amount. You're starting to turn into Dvorak here, and that's really a shame. But then if you flamebait enough Robert, your hits go up, and of course, then you get to write in a couple months, yet another one of your whining, crying in your teatowel articles about "Ohhh, people are just so meeeeeeeeean to meeee, and I don't know whyyyyy"
Suck it up Princess, you want to follow the Dvorak/Enderle route, then stop crying about the results. Have SOME integrity.
I'm a jazz fan. I love the way jazzers "copy" and quote each other. As I sit in the online media audience now, I like the UI jam Apple, TiVo and Microsoft are playing for me. Makes for an interesting experience. I like their Pop Tech but I'm always looking for new talent to step and blow...something from Yves Behar or nice German Braun or Krups line. And isn't it time B&O stepped up and blew a few danish modern UI riffs? Congrats to Apple for bringing in CoverFlow to join the band and play tenor sex.
more at http://loooktv.wordpress.com/
re:Apple...I'm a little fearful of the new iTunes feature that scans my library and fills in all the cover art I'm missing. Is it me or is this a great data mining strategy to build profile records around lifestage? Is this a big deal?
moderately paranoid in dot TV land
For the moderately paranoid in you.
When you install iTunes 7 the program asks you first / gives you the option if you want to auto scan for cover art.
This is Apple NOT Microsoft (pure flame bait :-p)
we'll see how long the baby cry tranquilizer works...
and never forget apple ripped the shit out of Xerox Parc. dont tell me mouse and icon was an apple invention.
But, neither company "copies". It is taking a good idea and attempting to improve it. Sometimes there is failure, sometime there is success. That is what our technological history has been built on.
Come on people, stop being a slave to M$!!!!
The problem is microsoft copies far more than most out there and its in the limelight all the time - it should know better but unfortunately it doesn't.
Wake me up when the Zune is out to check if this is true...
Who copied who ?
You really have to be an ass if you can't make the link between
Apple and INNOVATION
and
Microsoft and COPIES (poorly and insecurely too mainly).
Surely, you don't suggest that Microsoft created the concept of a list of tasks? Long before there were computers, kids textbooks used a list of subjects and coded color segments so that kids could easily find their way to the right topics. The organizational principle is quite similar.
There are plenty of examples that predate Media Center or anything Apple has done since.
Details
Introduced 1993.10.25 at $2,079; discontinued 1994.04
requires System 7.1 (with Enabler 404) to 7.6.1
CPU: 32 MHz 68030
FPU: none, not even as an option
performance: 7.0 MIPS
ROM: 1 MB
RAM: 5 MB from factory (4 MB on motherboard, expandable to 8 MB using a single 100ns 72-pin SIMM; can use 1 MB or 4 MB SIMM)
video: 512 KB VRAM; supports 640 x 480 at 8-bits
L2 cache: none
hard drive: 60 MB
CD-ROM: 2x
ADB ports for keyboard and mouse
DIN-8 serial ports on back of computer
DB-25 SCSI connector on back of computer
no expansion slots
size (HxWxD): 17.9" x 13.5" x 16.5"
weight: 40.5 lb.
PRAM battery: 3.6V lithium
Gestalt ID: 88
addressing: 32-bit
upgrade path: none
Image: http://lowendmac.com/500/mactv.jpg
Seeing all this, I really don't know who copied from who. Besides, if we look back to what all Microsoft had copied, stole or just bought off cheap and then presented it as their own technology, well I think that we would need another blog for that....
Robert Scoble: Why hasn't Apple hasn't released a Tablet system or Media Center yet? Obviously, the technology to build them exists, so what's the hold up?
Apple doesn't just release products because "it can", it does so when it feels the technology, user experience and market will result in a product people really WANT. Sure, there are people who need a Tablet PC for their job or bleeding edge users like yourself who will buy the latest gadgets, but that's not Apple's market.
Apple pioneered the hand-held, industry with the Newton. It was an amazing product at for it's time, but technology and end users wasn't ready yet so they killed it.
But does that mean doesn't mean that Apple stopped working on hand-held / tablet prototypes and software? No. It means that Apple doesn't think the current market, technology and user experience will result in a tablet device that people will really WANT to buy.
If you expect Apple to show their hand and release products just because everyone else does, you're going to be disappointed.
plus MSFT does copy alot, wow, Apple just copied one little item and you go ballistic.
Zune is just a copy of a Ipod.
I thought you didnt work for MSFT anymore but most of your topics are all the same.
1. Choice of downloads or subscriptions. This had been speculated, but nice to see it confirmed by Microsoft. We think many will be attracted to the simple subscription model.
2. Imports from iTunes. We need more details on this, but Microsoft pledges to make it easy to transfer your existing playlist to Zune - with the important caveat "as permitted by the online service from which it was purchased". We were surprised to see it highlighted in the Zune fact sheets, and are interested in how it can be pulled off without better cooperation from other online music stores.
www.Zunerama.com
Lets be honest, its the nature of the industry. We can argue that just about everything has been copied from IBM
You can always count on an OS war to generate cheap hits.
http://blogs.dasmirnov.net/paul/2006/09/13/appl...
New Microsoft mice copy OS X’s Expose
http://www.apcstart.com/site/dflynn/2006/09/143...
"And everything, absolutely everything, is all about the “experience” — so much so that we’re served cans of lemon-lime water badged with a Windows Vista logo which is less a drink than a “revitalising refreshment experience” (okay, Barlow didn’t say that, but we know he was thinking it) (and yes, this does sorta mean that we drank the Microsoft Kool-Aid)."
How much "Microsoft Kool-Aid" did you have today, M$ fan-boys?
So, the fact that the number of tablet PCs sold every year is more or less equal to the total number of Macs sold is of no consequence? Maybe you guys need to drink plain water sometimes, instead the Apple Kool-Aid. It's not good for your health.
"plus MSFT does copy alot, wow, Apple just copied one little item and you go ballistic."
Be honest to yourselves, guys. Apple copies ideas just as much as Microsoft does. The proof is irrefutable. Instead, you guys start coming up with irrelevant, illogical arguments. Not all Apple products are great. Not all Microsoft products suck. Microsoft and apple will continue to make billions of dollars and we won't get anything out of it so why do we have to argue so much about something that doesn't affect us in anyway? Accept the truth and move on. It's not that hard.
"It has a much bigger screen than iPod. Did they copy THAT from Apple? It has Wifi, which the iPod doesn’t have. Did they copy THAT from Apple?"
Can you copy the idea of "bigger screens" because its a natural progression of all things video is it not? The bigger the screen, the better? You don't think Apple is not thinking of having bigger screens for iPods?? The same goes with WiFi and FM tuner ...you don't think Apple kick around those ideas for the longest time? Its a balancing act of what features to have and when to release it, if at all. I will guarantee you that Apple will release a wide screen video iPod when they are ready.
Look at the fact that on a pc you need antispyware programs and anti virus, does a mac? NO!!!!
All you guys that lick MS ass just truly suck, all you are doing is paying for a cheap and crap system that crashes and is prone to viruses! Good luck!
And for all you people "really" excited about Vista, Vista is a copy of APPLE's OS X, that was brought out in 2000. Apple is always at the forefront of technology.
I suspect Microsoft is going after the UPS workers demographic.
Oh yeah I actually did see that…. Something like 2+ years ago ;-) and its been running in my house with a lot more functionality for a number of years (I have 5 extender boxes hooked up to my Media Center and all can watch downloaded movies, music pics, family video, and oh yeah live and recorded TV which I can synch to my portables for free) I wrote up a little rant on this at http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/09/13/video-of-the-... highlighting how we are already way beyond this.
I am sure that when Apple does release all this it will be made well, work well, and be a very good stack of products for consumers, they excel at doing that. But is it innovative, new, or even improved? Hardly.
I will be writing some on issues like this on my blog.
~clearthought
http://cafzal.blogspot.com/
You do know that Xerox - through their PARC - invented just about every feature of modern-day personal computing, don't you?
PS who gives a monkey who "copies" who. I guess everyone copied Mercedes with the car. Or the Wright Bros with the aeroplane.
I just want the best stuff.
Besides, whats a good bar without a good cover (copy) band ;-)
Anyway, both companies will disapear soon, so there is no point in worrying about them.
Now I've been using iPods a while - and I'm mostly satisfied.
But.. if Microsoft can figure out DRM correctly (I like Apple's system), offer it for less, and port their software to the Mac I'd consider trying it - but only if it cost significantly less. That's the problem every challenger faces - they have to be so much better than the incumbent that it's worthwhile to switch. Did Microsoft make it with Zune? No, not for me.
I like them in the market though. A good challenger may improve the pace of progress at Apple. And hopefully keep prices down. Of course in the short term, Zune is the one who's been undercut on price.. I think Msoft should drop $ to $199 - that would generate some good demand. They'll have to make up the losses on Zune v2.. just my 2 cents
Nope. A tablet Mac that works like it's supposed to.
U cant reply to mi becos ur stoopid PC is crashing agin !!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Apple invented everfing and M$ copy everfing from Apple. OS X is the bestest an Windows blows! LOL!
(just in keeping with the style of comments in this thread...)
In what way does the tablet PC not work?
This should be interesting.
SK: "So, the fact that the number of tablet PCs sold every year is more or less equal to the total number of Macs sold is of no consequence?"
You're comparing apples to oranges. WANT vs. NEED.
Apple is in the business of selling things that people WANT. Hospitals buy Tablet PCs because they NEED to keep track of the overwhelming amount of medical information they're required to track for each patient. The difference is subtle but important.
While I don't claim to know the exact numbers, the majority of Tablet PC systems are sold to niche markets with a specific NEED for mobile or touch screen computing, such as legal, architecture, health-care, pharmaceutical and education. Add all of these markets up and you've got a significant number of sales. But these numbers pale in comparison with the total number of Windows PCs sold.
Yes, some early adopters are buying slate and convertible Tablet PC systems, but just because a convertible system ships with the Tablet version of XP doesn't mean people actually use it as a Tablet. Again, I don't claim to know the exact numbers, but it seems that most business don't feel they NEED Tablet PCs, nor do a significant number of users WANT to buy them.
Apple will sell a tablet Mac, but only when they feel they have a product that people will WANT to use.
Exactlly! This is what Microsoft does all the time. Someone comes out with something, they do it because they have the money to do it. And do a crappy job while their at it. All too often you see stories "Microsoft enters so and so market". Always following never leading.
And yeah Robert, the Newton was a Tablet PC before there was a thing known as a Tablet PC. :)
Cant wait for my Zune, hopefully it wont be as big as creative and nice looking software.
I don't know if this is true or not, but even if it is - is there something wrong with producing products that people need??? I think that what you're saying is that Apple are creating products that people *desire* and people don't exactly *desire* lots of the stuff Microsoft creates. But the result there is one very, very, VERY big but somewhat uncool company and one not-really-that-big but very cool company. I don't see either as having some moral high ground that their resective fans would like them to have. Tech companies are influenced by and trade ideas with each other. It's the way technology has worked since humans came up with stone tools.
As for Apple's new software, most likely, they made it 'look' and 'feel' like "Windows Media Center" because it is very common and familiar to billions of people.
Microsoft doesn't only copy Apple. Microsoft copies Netscape, and Palm, and Sony, and Google and Symantec. And I'm forgetting so many, many more. The problem is that while the others innovate, Microsoft copies poorly. Then it leverages Windows to bundle and uses exclusionary licensing with OEMs to stop competitors from bundling or, in Netscape's case, from even having a chance at the OEM channel.
Is a bigger screen on a hand-held device considered innovation?
I could understand if the bigger screen folds out, or uses some new LEDs, or contains some lighter or more scratchproof material. But just cause it's bigger?
This is why I buy Apple. I have 7 Apple computers at home :-)
Ok.. I admit... I do have an XBox 360 :-)
(Apple makes life more interesting for Microsoft. For a long time Microsoft had no real competitor... Now... there is Apple.. Google... etc.. I am sure MS has new found motivation to improve due to the competition.)
Back to the video... I found it amusing that the audience didn't make a peep until Jobs solicited a response. Also, Jobs, himself, was rather low-key throughout the presentation. Both were as if everyone realized the elephant in the room: the extreme similarities between this product and Microsoft's. Jobs mentions that "iTV" may not be the retail name of the product. How about the "Media Center Mac"? :)
I *will* give it to the product that it's extremely small and cheap, but both are at the cost of versatility and customization. For example, nowhere in the demonstration did Jobs minimize the application, leading me to suspect that there is no fully-functional OS behind it to allow you to web surf or run other applications (e-mail, games, etc.), like with MCE.
I really don't have much hatred toward Apple's products, but what I do really hate is their arrogance and hypocrisy. If they would just shut up about people copying them, I and others would cut them a lot of slack when they blindly copy the ideas of others.
This point was tired when it was hot, and now it's odd to even see someone blogging about it.
Scoble, you of all people should understand that meaningful content and insight is the key to a blog surviving. Sure, you'll get a lot of hits today, but your days are numbered if you keep up these silly parlor tricks.
Learn from Daringfireball. That guy knows how to blog...
http://duckbrown.wordpress.com/2006/09/14/is-mi...
----------------------
Apple lemmings doing that is one thing, but the sad thing is that Jobs himself is doing it. Besides bashing MS throughout that pitiful WWDC, he had a full 10-minute long segment whining about MS copying Apple.
Meanwhile FrontRow is a blatant ripoff of Media Center, iTV is a blatant ripoff of Media Center Extenders, iTunes7 is a blatant ripoff of WMP11 (and was rushed to RTM w/o any beta just so Apple could claim that they didn't copy WMP11, and the massive bug reports for iTunes7 is the result). Alt-TAB was copied from MS. The Dock was copied from MS. The ability to drag folders into the command line was copied from MS. OpenDoc (the old OLE ripoff, not ODF) was copied from MS. It goes on and on, yet Apple, led by Jobs, pretends that it doesn't and gleefully bashes MS. Meanwhile, Gates never bashes Apple at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QdGt3ix2CQ
The Dock copied from MS? That was out in NextStep before MS even thought of copying the idea.
Gates doesn't bash Apple because he knows he rips off Apple and many other companies.
Microsoft in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzKj-1HaKw
So Jobs doesn't know he rips off from Microsoft? Ignorant fellow, eh?
I had respect for Jobs before the bashing, and my respect for him was that he always tried to create something out of an idea, but all this Miscrosoft bashing has just gone out of hand. He should have left all the bashing for the 13 year old diggers
i can't believe this link was sent to me apple "copying" itv which again is a logical idea now that there are movies in the ITMS vs. microsoft copying the basic look and feel of alot of mac programs and even developing programs that are on a mac that were NEVER on windows
Sean
To the fanboys on both sides of the fence, RELAX! None of this matters. At all. None of it. Really.
Anyway, it's been a while since I followed a thread like this. Was laughing out loud several times. Really good stuff. Ah well, you've kept me up past my bedtime so I bid you all good night.
"If anyone ever tells me again that Microsoft only copies Apple I’m gonna puke."
"They cost $900. But they are simply the best headphones on the market. (...) I got a pair for free last year."
Newsflash: you are an asshole who tries to project some terrible sense of superiority over your fellow human beings, having been unfortunately elevated by a misguided crowd of people. You are an empty shell of a person who can't go more than one or two sentences without writing "I" or "my" or "me"-- you don't care about anyone other than yourself, and thirty years from now you're going to wish that you were a better person when you were younger. You were worth subscribing to, once, before this god-complex took over your everyday journal. Now you're no better than a 15-year-old on Myspace, bragging about his latest toys or whining about other people's contributions to society. Good day.
@ Peter: There's nothing wrong with creating products that people need. Many companies have become very successful doing just that.
But the role of computing in people's lives is evolving from NEED to WANT. From balancing your checkbook to creating home videos on DVD. Just making products people NEED isn't enough any more.
Yes, Apple has copied from other companies in the past. But history has clearly shown that Apple leads and the Industry follows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh#Ef...
The iPod is a successful product because every element of it is smoothly integrated between the hardware, the software and the store (and the marketing of course). This is why the typical criticisms like 'why would I buy an iPod when I can get player X that hold 30GB more for $20 less' miss the point. This kind of integration takes years to perfect. In the scheme of the system and concept, an incremental improvement in the UI is simply a natural extension of this overall concept. I don't think it can be compared with a decision by Microsoft to release a Player plus Software plus Store combo. i.e. a 'copy' of a completely conceptualised product against part of a UI. Or the one that made me laugh. 'Not copying because the Zune has a bigger screen'.
After all, let's reverse the roles. Suppose Microsoft had launched the Zune 3 years ago, and it held the position the iPod does now. If Apple launched their competitor it would be game over before it even began. However, with Microsoft they already have a huge built-in advantage because of their userbase. In other words, they don't need to be as innovative as Apple. Microsoft is a business and so there is nothing wrong with that.
I don't think it does Apple any good for Steve Jobs to make these 'sniping' comments. Every knows that Apple is an innovative company. That should be enough.
"How can you say that apple is copying windows. Windows sucks really bad. Look at how long it takes to load compared to a mac."
hey Gareth do you really own a mac? That white screen with an apple logo... its already Mac OS X booting! And it takes 15 sec on my powerbook! After that a fake loading screen will show up.
"Look at the fact that on a pc you need antispyware programs and anti virus, does a mac?"
Yes, Mac got virusses and spyware and some of them are more virulent. Also mac users are more chickens than windows user when it comes to virusses.
"All you guys that lick MS ass just truly suck, all you are doing is paying for a cheap and crap system that crashes and is prone to viruses! Good luck!"
At least they dont lick or a sucker for steve jobs' ball LOL! Well mac are more crap that's why apple switch to intel remember?
"And for all you people “really” excited about Vista, Vista is a copy of APPLE’s OS X, that was brought out in 2000. Apple is always at the forefront of technology."
Why? just because they are the first to copy konfabulator? I think the earliest beta of longhorn already got this functionality, just look at the sidebar thingy. Spotlight? Is that advance? I makes my mac go slowwww!
Yes, Microsoft copies Apple copies Microsoft copies Apple, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
SO WHAT?
Yep. The new iTunes interface vastly resembles WMP. It's also a vast improvement over WMP. This is why competition is good. Apple has a tendency to jump into a market and make existing stuff better. That's what they do best.
SO WHAT?
Microsoft, for all its substantial resources and partners, still can't seem to be "cool". But that doesn't mean they don't drive a lot of innovation.
Look, boys and girls, it's like cars. One company introduces electric locks, another has ABS brakes, another does side-impact air bags. All innovations. Soon, every car has them, someone else gets a new idea, and everyone copies.
It's called "competition". Get over it.
While I've completely switched at home to Apple, I will continue to be employed supporting Microsoft machines and my old PC will get Vista RC2 this weekend. It'll probably never see Windows XP Pro again.
Where are these viruses? You can't (or shouldn't) use a Windows machine without needing anti-virus and anti-spyware software. You don't need either on a Mac. I haven't seen one Mac user who runs antivirus software. You don't need it. On Windows it's a pain in the ass to have both. Especially for people who are new or inexperienced with computers and having to deal with that crap. Not on Macs.
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_res...
Chickens? What have chickens have to do with it?
I don't know if Apple will ever come out with a Tablet Mac. If they did I'm guessing it will be as slim as a nano. With software that does a few things that people would want to use a Tablet Mac for very well. They will sell better that every Tablet PC before it. You will then do your Apple copied Microsoft post. About how you don't understand why Tablet PC that are four times the size and are trying to replace Desktop PCs are not doing as well.
The problem Microsoft has with copying is that they rarely improve on what they copy. They Zune may have x or y that the iPod lacks, but I don't think anyone really looks at it and sees a better mp3 player. When the iPod came out most people saw it was an improvement compared to other players. Cost and it being Mac only were the big reasons given for it to fail. Cost prove not to be an issue and Apple fixed the Mac only limitation.
Answer: No
"APPLE DOES NOT COPY MICROSOFT. MICROSOFT COPIES APPLE."
There ... now let's try this:
"BUSH IS THE MOST INTELLIGENT PRESIDENT EVER." x100
It works, doesn't it? Now let's try it just one more time to make sure...
"GLOBAL WARMING IS A MYTH!" x100
Do you believe it? Good! Yeah, it's that simple.
So, they'll release the real thing when they're ready. Until then, keep it secret and make it look like a typical MS POS.
Give me a Tivo any day. I can stream content from my PC, record tv, etc.
Give me a Media PC any day. I can do everything iTV can do, record tv, pause and rewind live tv, etc.
Come on this was the furthest thing from innovative I've seen come out of Apple.
Now....get off the subject of trying to defend Microsoft. You don't work there any more, you can't do it with sincerity anyway (because in your heart of hearts you know it's crap) and get back to the stuff you do best! Tell us about cool stuff (and okay....rae about Zune if you must....even if we don' know whether it'll be cool or not)
And yes, I'm aware that I'M taking a moment out of my life to comment on this post, but I can justify it by saying I'm doing it in the interests of the public good. ;-)
Ever wonder why? Because they cause more trouble!
http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2005/05/the_...
It's a SHIT! Ur already infected then the supposed to be a "cure" is also a shit! DANG!
I'm a SME at Microsoft and am in the middle of writing a whitepaper on Windows Media Center Extensibility for Windows Vista.
Windows Media Center has sold over 16 million units to date, with an additional 1 million per month.
Apple has what? 2% of the desktop OS market? They copied the idea for integrated search and merely implemented it faster in their "new OS" (which BTW we call a service pack), and dashboard was merely a nicely implemented copy of Konfabulator.
Microsoft improves upon concepts for productivity purposes, and has enough foresight to come up with great concepts like Windows Media Center, and Tablet PC. We believe and have a passion for innovation, and improvement, and our dominance of the market proves this.
Dont forget that Microsoft bailed Apple out by investing 150 million in apple stock in 1997. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxOp5mBY9IY
Also, keep in mind that Microsoft owns the patent to the iPod clickwheel, but as a result of the 1997 5 year agreement Microsoft lets apple use that on their iPod architecture.
Do you honestly think that if Microsoft Office for MAC was not around in the past 5 years apple would have sold well? Go into any Apple store and listen to a salesperson try to sell a Macbook to a college student. It is one of the main selling points for the platform apple has their salespeople use.
Now I'm not anti-apple, I own a 17inch PowerBook G4 which I had Office 12 running on in a Windows VPC this time last year. Apple is definitely a great company with things to offer, but to say that Microsoft copies from them all the time is just an ignorant remark.
There are many Microsoft employees who use Apple hardware, and more than a few offices on Redmond campus that have iMAC's in them. We arent one-tack people, we know how to take the best of everything and put it to use, and that is what is great about Microsoft, its not just a bunch of buildings, it's the employees in them that bring their passion to the workplace.
Thank you...
>I’m a SME at Microsoft
This is meant to make us trust you?
>Windows Media Center has sold over 16 million units to date
Probably. But irrelevant.
>Apple has what? 2% of the desktop OS market
Trollbait!
>They copied the idea for integrated search and merely implemented it faster
Apple has had "next generation Search" since before MICRO-SOFT "invented" the Internet. Those of us with an interest in computing had used VTwin long ago, saw it as it morphed into Sherlock and again we see Spotlight. So who exactly did they COPY it from? MICRO-SOFT? Bwahahahahah.
>in their “new OS” (which BTW we call a service pack), and
Really? What you call ServicePacks - do they actually add brand new features or do they just fix the problems with the promised features that don't work. I mean...XP SP2 is apparently the dogs bollocks but.....why did they need SP1....and what fantastic features did they add? Anything like Spotlight? Exposé? CoreVideo? Don't think so.
>dashboard was merely a nicely implemented copy of Konfabulator.
Blaarp. Konfabulator was a prettified way of displaying what we called Desktop Accessories in the olden days. Heck, even CDE had active widgets. Did Apple copy them?
>Microsoft improves upon concepts for productivity purposes,
Are you sure you can name any great ones?
>and has enough foresight to come up with great concepts like Windows Media Center,
Blaarp. I had TV on my Mac in 1998. Built in. Not as a third party add-on.
> and Tablet PC.
Uh...MICRO-SOFT invented the Tablet PC? Do they make that KoolAid in grape?
>Dont forget that Microsoft bailed Apple out
>if Microsoft Office for MAC was not around
>Microsoft lets apple use that on their iPod architecture
Your closing argument is to tell us that MICRO-SOFT doesn't copy Apple. I think Apple and MICRO-SOFT both copy from each other and from other things. It's not a bad thing. But you read like a Mirosoft shill.
My problem with MICRO-SOFT is simple.
They hire the smartest people in the world.
They have more money than everyone in the world.
They have access to the best resources in the world.
And Windows still annoys the nipples off me due to stupid decisions. It's taken them this long to ditch DOS (is Monad still shipping in VISTA?) Why do they ignore design principles when putting together a UI? Who let the "ribbon" concept through? Someone must have really liked it up top and forced that one through. I hear nothing but complaints about it as a UI concept.
MICRO-SOFT has all of this cool stuff and still, they manage to suck majorly at some things. Why is that?
--MJ
Yay MJ!!!
And Robert Hoover, get some facts strait. Apple owns more than 2% market share, it is closer to 10% now. Konfabulator was released AFTER dashboard for poser PC-users. And why is it that Windows is being constantly attacked by viruses and hackors, and Apple not? Could it be (gasp) that Apple has BETTER security than Windows?! (GASP!!)
Well, no just because I'm a SME doesnt mean you should trust me. The fact that Microsoft hired me is good enough.
>>Apple has what? 2% of the desktop OS market
>>Trollbait!
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,...
I noticed that you didnt touch the facts about Microsoft bailing Apple out with 150 million dollars and a 5 year agreement that allowed Apple to make use of Microsoft's clickwheel patent, and have Office for Mac software to help boost market sales. Microsoft is not a bad company, it is just as you say,
>>They hire the smartest people in the world.
>>They have more money than everyone in the world.
>>They have access to the best resources in the world.
Everything is very bureaucratic, and to get something done requires the input and "okaying" of many groups, business units, and corporate management. That is the only reason productivity has been watered down, and Windows Vista has been in development for over 4 years.
I agree that the copying goes back and forth. I also believe it is a positive thing to improve on ideas. I do however find it blatently rude that Apple accuses Microsoft of copying when it does so itself. They simply dont have the innovation market cornered as they like to portray to their minions at WWDC.
I also like to point out that Microsoft does not do competetive marketing, EVER! They will never slander another product publicly as Apple seems to do.
I think that one of Microsoft's stupid decisions that you so aptly mention was actually supporting Apple when they were down for the count.
Show me a recent study to support that. Then I'll stand corrected, until then I suggest you limit your comments to verifiable evidence.
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,...
Well it only tells us one thing --> Mac is a crap! that even virus writer dont want to create virusses for it! LOL! They have the same reason why software dev dont create too much app for the mac --> coz it only got a handful of users!
Also it's not the right way to measure how 'secure' your os is!
I just cant pass this one up...
Perhaps its because Apple users dont HAVE anything that hackers want? With only 2.3 percent of the desktop market(as stated in the above independant study), it doesnt make much business sense to make a malware-product when you can get a much better return on a virus or worm that can infect 96% of the worlds desktops...
Also, with Windows Vista, security is superior to OS X's due to the secure user environment. Even Joanna Rutkowska couldnt hack Vista with her impressive Blue Pill without having that feature disabled, or having the user allow the installation.
I'm am now done responding on this thread because you obviously are close-minded and no amount of evidence or logic will allow you to see past a bias to the larger picture.
Konfabulator is more of a framework! and Apple copied that concept!
Yeah, well let's just see, aight? Hackers are constantly evolving. They'll find a way.
And Apple computers don't have anything? Yeah right. Hollywood studios and news stations use Final Cut on Apple computers. If you wanted to hack and find a prereleased movie, you hack an Apple. Design companies all use Apple.
Too bad you can't hack an Apple because it's just more SECURE than a Windows.
I thought most of the animation etc. was done on Linux???!!?
"And Robert Hoover, get some facts strait. Apple owns more than 2% market share, it is closer to 10% now."
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. Sorry. Shouldn't laugh. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.
I agree. Apple is definitely a great and innovative company. They have a great line of computers and mp3 players - no doubt about that. But, to say that there's no innovation at Microsoft and they only copy Apple is very arrogant, uninformed, and stupid. And it's not just the users, Steve Jobs himself makes those comments. That's the problem I have with the company. Either the top level management is not aware of it or they think attack is the best form of defense - accuse MS of copying before they can so that, even if MS's software predates your by over a year in some cases, people will still think they've copied it from you.
News stations and many live programs use Final Cut.
–MJ
Microsoft, because of its different market, has different design initiatives than Apple; for instance, it has to keep backwards compatibility, and it has to support drivers. At the same time they weren't as concerned as necessary with security because the Internet was relatively new and they were focusing on user experience. The problem they've had over the years is that they make a big effort to upgrade certain things then fall behind on other thinsg, etc.
"Microsoft, because of its different market, has different design initiatives than Apple; for instance, it has to keep backwards compatibility, and it has to support drivers."
Apple also has had to maintain backwards compatibility, otherwise there would be no reason to include the Classic environment or Rosetta in Mac OS X. Apple also has to suppport drivers. There is no difference in design initiatives there between Apple and Microsoft.
"At the same time they weren’t as concerned as necessary with security because the Internet was relatively new and they were focusing on user experience. The problem they’ve had over the years is that they make a big effort to upgrade certain things then fall behind on other thinsg, etc."
The is relatively true. Although in 2002 Bill Gates did try to direct focus more on security in Windows development.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,43235,00.html
History shows that back in the 80's when Apple was in hot water, it licenced its GUI (visual displays)to Microsoft. Sculley was Apple CEO at the time. Apple later sued Microsoft to invalidate the licence, but the court ruled in favor of Microsoft citing that it was legitimate business deal and cannot be revoked. Today Microsoft acts like it invented it. The fact is that Microsoft never in its entire history invented anything. It always buys or bullies its way into other people's ideas. So next time you want to talk of Apple copying Microsoft, just remember that if it wasn't for Apple licence to Microsoft, unfortunate Windows fans like you will still be hacking your keyboards without a mouse. If it wasn;t for Apple, there will be no Windows or Vista.
Get the facts on technology. This is a not pouplarity contest!
IMHO Apple would do themselves a favor to open their OS up and let it be loaded on any PC as well as building their machines so that any OS could be loaded on them.
Then when Apple, Google, Sun, or Yahoo release what they have been working on for the past year then they look like the copied M$. One big poker game, oddly enough Bill gates favorite game!
Another point: If linux, Unix, and Apple have already gone there then what can M$ do, if M$ and Unix have already made it the can Apple do. Are they going to just avoid it, like Apples Spotlight, I love it, but give M$ a break they used it in Vista. Give Apple a break, so they made a media center that looks similar to XP Media Center. Sometimes you look like to copied to stay in the race. I never heard any one complaing about other car makers making cars that look like a Matrix. What about when for came out with there answer to the Surbin, no one walked around saying ford copied chevy.
P.S. Good artists copy, great artists steal!
Steve Did The Right Thing By Making A PERSON'S COMPUTER Rather Then A Personal Computer(full of holes)
PC Also Stands For 'P'iece of 'C'rap
End Of Story.
Continue What You Do Best Steve, And Watch Out Bill.
So basically you, the author admitted that Microsoft copies Apple but not only Apple, but many hardworking, honest companies.