Scobleizer - Latest Comments in HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Ted Matsumura — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:29:19 -0000

Be sure to check out Karel Baloun’s book (and related blogsite): Inside Facebook at

http://www.fbbook.com

Thanks,
Ted

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

orcmid — Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:43:20 -0000

I get that we are all stakeholders in how our society works, and having it work well. But I don't think voting in newspaper surveys on whether or not we think XYZ (the popular XYZ was O.J when the papers really got stupid about this) was guilty or not is a contribution to civil participation.

I understand this situation isn't exactly like that, but it is a bit like the spectator's calling for a gladiator's execution.

Maybe worse. We don't have all of the facts, and we're not in a position to have them. And we shouldn't rush to judgment. However the HP board's leak-stoppage fiasco plays out, we won't know much until it is over. This is not one of those situations that gets handled by a blog response.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Robert Scoble — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:50:24 -0000

Credit? Who was taking credit? I said I had skin in the game and that I was using my words. Which is pretty obvious. But, who'll be the one who really keeps the heat on? Me, or CNNMoney? http://money.cnn.com/2006/0...

I vote for CNNMoney.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

LayZ — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:40:47 -0000

@48 I thought you said you weren't going to be taking credit for any of this?

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Robert Scoble — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:03:03 -0000

orcmid: I do have SOME skin in this game. We all do. If we allow corporations to run amok over our privacy then we all lose. And, how can we punish someone with hundreds of millions of dollars in their bank account? One way I can? To be merciless with my words.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

orcmid — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 15:56:32 -0000

Robert, I am more inclined to Rickey's council than your ad hominem stuff about HP leadership.

For one thing, you have no skin in this game (any more than does Steve Gilmor when he rants for the firing of specific Microsoft executives). Secondly, this is not an election and you are not on a jury. Commenting on their lack of transparency, and on the comparison with Ford Motor Company (FMC to its friends and family) are useful.

Calling for the guillotine is not very appropriate. It doesn't leave much room for redemption. It doesn't cultivate much mutual understanding and room for cleaning things up and putting in corrections for future conduct. We are all in the peanut gallery here, and that makes our posturing ridiculous.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Christopher Coulter — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:27:31 -0000

The original person who has leaked information to public put entire company at risk. There was reason why information was made confidential.

Ends justifies the means, eh? And who is to say any leaking actually happened? I have seen lots of companies spread public domain info, only to later call it 'confidential' when the spin doesn't go their way. Maybe this 'leak' was a 'gotcha'. Ex post facto?

The arrogance of Patricia Dunn is amazing, truly amazing, any non-tech company that deals with real PR, would of asked for her head, nearly second of, emergency vote, no dilly-dallying for days. I don't know why HP is letting itself get dragged through the mud.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

TAG — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 10:15:56 -0000

You don't get entire picture folks.

The original person who has leaked information to public put entire company at risk. There was reason why information was made confidential.

Sure - information on somebody phone calls is also private - so both sides did wrong. But one side did this for his own benefit, while another did for company one (or at least believed so).

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Wesley Parish — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 04:57:06 -0000

@40, I'm worried that the rot has started already.

Groklaw - an independent FOSS-friendly law-focused blog - posted a couple of articles on this HP case yesterday. I go to Groklaw today and can't get to it.

Chilling effect?

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Christopher Coulter — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 04:10:32 -0000

Media need to be much more aggressive on this. Worries me that they haven’t filed suit against HP already.

Ever worked in the journo biz? Ummm, pot calling kettle black. Media ain't gonna sue, if they do, they are stupid, companies will just fight back libel-style. Besides journalists make misrepresentational-styled pretexting and other iffy private-eyeish methods a daily newsroom practice. The fact some got burnt, all parta the job. Too risky suing, opens up a can of uncontrollable worms. The aggression will come in the form of non-stop wall to wall coverage for weeks and constant revisits and snarky ironic jokes forever. Besides they are already gathering dirt a mile high...

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Hey — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:38:03 -0000

Sorry, but the government is already doing stuff like this due to the Patriot Act. AT&T giving the Bush Administration information on their customers without a search warrant.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Christopher Coulter — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:55:49 -0000

"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws." - John Adams

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Christopher Coulter — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:40:50 -0000

She's still on the punish the leakers bit, something doesn't smell right, a long-term board vet suddenly leaking? More sounds like some of the Directors were unhappy with the plan, and expressing discontent, that became "leaking". Healthy companies don't play up conspiracy theories, or target short-sellers or go paranoia city.

With "leaking", it's all relative, just like Scoble and others could get away with breaking NDAs left and right at Microsoft, but some front-line trooper that did nothing, yet wasn't a "team player", was always falsely saddled with breaking NDAs and leaking. It's common practice to besmirch enemies with 'leaking'...come guys, doncha know basic Wash DC-styled Political Warfare games? A leaker is not always a real leaker, sometimes (and more than you would think) he/she is just not on the program.

And extreme paranoia over leakers is crippling at best, and Stalinist at worst. But so much for her skills, tons of ways of filtering out and giving the suspected source tainted info and seeing where the blood shows up, or marking certain docs, no laws broken. Freshman CIA spy craft 101.

And this has long since been apart of Corporate Culture, once you join a Board, you are basically surrendering any shed of privacy, the price you pay. This stuff goes on daily. HP's arrogance and overreach killed them here.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

LayZ — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 01:27:06 -0000

@31 You have a belief system based on a company????? Scary.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Dominic Jones — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:35:13 -0000

Digger,

Directors aren't employees. They are elected by the company's owners or shareholders. That's often not recognized, even by boards.

Dunn used the company's security department to carry out the investigation. The company -- or management -- was investigating its owners' representatives, who are supposed to be watching management on their shareholders' behalf.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Digger Griffin — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:57:22 -0000

Bottom Line for me - Are Directors employees in a legal and privacy sense? I just want to understand the issue in this context. That is, if Dunn was using private assets, isn't the issue confidentially agreement related? Were these violated?

Thanks - I'd appreciate any coments.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Ho John Lee — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:09:43 -0000

Part of what makes this so jarring is the incongruity of HP's history of high corporate values and integrity with with the behavior we see at present.

Many years ago back at HP, I participated in an immersive / role-playing workshop as part of their internal executive training process, in which you were presented with an opportunity to lie/cheat/steal in support of your business objective. At the time, it was considered a grave error if you went down that path, and would probably get you bounced off the executive track.

This sort of thing has and undoubtedly still does continue among companies here in the valley. It's sad and bizarre seeing it at HP, though.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Dominic Jones — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:38:20 -0000

Dunn says, "I didn't know." She ordered the probe and didn't bother to ask? What kind of chairman of a Fortune 500 company is that? Doesn't ask how? My foot.

Media need to be much more aggressive on this. Worries me that they haven't filed suit against HP already. Sends the wrong signal. Why would I ever talk frankly off-the-record to a reporter again if there's a chance some company is going to set its goons on me?

The ramifications of this story seem to be lost on so many people it astounds me. Maybe you have to be a journalist to get it.

This is about freedom. Without a free, unfettered press what is America? Not even the FBI is allowed to do what HP did without first going before a judge with evidence.

And why is HP trying to gag its directors? They don't work for the company. They are representatives of the shareholders, period. They are grown up, high capable people.

They owe a duty to protect the company, and if you read the article that got Dunn upset, it's actually a really positive piece about a HP directors retreat where they thrashed out issues on the company's strategy.

The only negative thing I saw in it was that Dunn made the directors work from early morning to 10 at night with only breaks for meals. What, she didn't like being made out to be a bitch in the press so she ordered a probe that turned into the most damaging PR fiasco in history?

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Robert Scoble — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:16:09 -0000

Dave: I probably should have gone after Sony too, but I can't do every case like this. This hit home cause HP is such a big part of my childhood and belief system.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Dave Goodman — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:30:12 -0000

I agree with your stance on HP. I've never really liked their products (great quality and support, but too intrusive an installation and a sense of NIH syndrome). Nonetheless, I thought of them as a good company.

My question is, why do you seem to be treating this differently than you did Sony? To recap, Sony has faked movie reviews, installed malware and spyware, and treats consumers of its music and movies like criminals. I don't remember you calling for the ouster of the Sony CEO for their behavior. Why is HP worse? Isn't Sony worse for its treatment of thousands of customers, where HP just spied on itself and a few journalists?

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Shocking — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:19:33 -0000

News on MSNBC is that the board called an emergency meeting probably for tomorrow. That should be interesting. If you really care about this, go to the HP BOD web page and "Mail the Board" and tell them what you think before their meeting.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Robert Scoble — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:03:18 -0000

Brainwagon: I totally agree with your post here:
http://brainwagon.org/archi...

It gets just worse and worse. Look at Dunn's latest: http://news.com.com/2100-10...

She is still doing the "ends justify the means" thing. She still doesn't get it. And who handed over the board member's social security numbers and phone numbers to this "private investigator firm?" Some low-level area associate? Give me a break.

If I tried to pull this crap I'd be out on the street without a severance package.

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Robert Scoble — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:55:11 -0000

Michael, yeah. Last night I was talking with a few high-powered Silicon Valley types and they said stuff like this goes on all the time but we never hear about it. Well, that's exactly why a message must be sent now. And a harsh one.

I totally agree with TechDirt and with you. No moral compass, just embarrassment at getting caught: http://techdirt.com/article...

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

Michael — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:43:38 -0000

It gets better and better:

"I am not happy that the way this investigation has been conducted has led to this major embarrassment," Dunn said in an interview with CNET News.com.

She is obviously not happy that it investigation led to the embarrassment, but she is still quite happy with the investigation itself (if it did not go public).

Re: HP has major ethical problem, day 3

porkchop — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:31:31 -0000

Robert -- it's interesting how this ties to MSFT too.

I used to work at HP when the founders were still there. HP had a soul that was created by the founders through the HP Way, the Garage, Management by Walking Around, and the Bench Test (if an Engineer next to you on the bench thought your invest was cool, it could turn into a product). But that soul started fading when Bill and Dave retired -- and a lot of talent left HP. The soul died when they both died (and soon after Carly joined HP - when the rest of the talent left HP). Since then, it felt like just another soul-less corporate machine.

Now jump to MSFT -- I left HP to join MSFT. I see MSFT as about 5 to 10 years behind HP in corporate maturity and I see MSFT going in a lot of similar directions that HP did. MSFT still has a soul today, and is an interesting place to work. However, as Billg starts retiring, and other departures (Brianv) - how much longer will the soul remain?