As a mobile developer, thank you for writing this post so I didn't have to. Now I can just point my friends here.
The disconnect between consumers expectations and the reality of the ongoing costs to build and update apps is partially due to the "iPhone App Gold Rush" propaganda - which has led many to believe that apps are "easy" to build & they're all getting hundreds of thousands of downloads.
It likely cost $25k to $75K minimum to build Tweetie 2.0, plus they have ongoing costs. It is an absolute steal for $2.99.
If it weren't for the "false economy" on The App Store, Tweetie would be at least $29.99 and it would still be a good value.
chrish341
· 2 months ago
Well said, John. It's interesting that the developer has Mac version which he charges $19.95 for a non-ad-supported version.
That really highlights the different market expectation that has been created on the iPhone.
Is the Mac app 6 times better than the iPhone? Hardly. In fact, the iPhone version may be just as useful or even more useful.
thomaswii4life
· 2 months ago
I agree too on paying for apps. When you do it encourages people to build more apps. And also the people not making them even though they have the ability too. I don't use twitter though, so i haven't tried it. I'm slow. I just got a facebook account a few ago. hehe. Two Voices | Two Guys
Robin Eads
· 2 months ago
I love this post! We were told by a developer that iPhone apps aren't profitable, so that if we built one for JobShouts, we would likely have to make it free or no one would want it. So why is it that people want apps but don't want to pay for them? Probably for the same reason they complain when Twitter is down, or any free service doesn't meet their needs - their expectations are out of whack. I appreciate our developers and feel they should be rewarded for their work, not doing it for a pat on the back.
lorilaurentsmith
· 2 months ago
Perhaps a better analogy is a sequel. The latte example is comparing chalk and cheese. Apps are about the experience, not product consumption (as lattes are).
The sequel continues elements of the original story, often with the same characters and settings. Sequels build on this familiarity with a installed fan base. People pay for sequels (look no further than the publishing sector where sequels turn into series or in the film industry where the majority of moves have a number following the title).
missrogue
· 2 months ago
"Anyway, the main point here is that it’s not the app store that’s screwed up: it’s our expectation that developers should work for free."
Bravo for saying this Robert! The whole entitled free culture thing drives me nuts.
Erik Boles
· 2 months ago
Okay, since I am called out in this post by Robert, I guess I should clarify my position.
I have absolutely NO problem at all paying for software. Nobody works for free, I can appreciate that, I have developed a lot of web apps in my day and wouldn't have done it for free.
Here is where my problems lie:
-- I don't see this as a ground-up re-write of an app. I am not disputing that they did re-write their code from the ground up, I am saying it wasn't necessary. there are some cool enhancements to Tweetie 1.0, but it isn't a totally new, kick-ass, oh my god how did they do this, they must be geniuses that walk on water, twitter app. They added some functonality.
-- Now, again, this doesn't mean that I shouldn't (or wouldn't) pay a nominal fee ($0.99 ??) for an 'update' to the app, but paying as much or more than the original app price.....
--There is a precedence here with iphone apps. I have bought hundreds of apps over the last few years for my iphone, and the expectation is that you but it once, you down the new version and, right before download it pops-up a message saying "You have already paid for this app, you will not be charged for this version". Now, it would be VERY easy for them to pop-up another window that says "this is a new version of this app, you will be charged for the new version", but it doesn't do that, it simply starts downloading, and you get charged when you don't expect to.
--Give people an option. build an ad-based option (where you, as the developer, will most likely make a lot MORE money from the ad revenue than you will from a one-time $3). If people want an ad-free option, it is there, if not, let them eat cake.
All this being said, I obviously was excited for the app, that is why I downloaded it, and got charged for it when I didn't expect to be. I use it, I like it, does it totally blow my mind? No. Does it have some cool features? Yes. Will Simplytweet, Tweetdeck, or someone else out there release another app in the next 45 days that does even more cool stuff that I will have to pay for again? Yes. The sum of it all is so not $3 a year for a twitter app.
But Robert does make a good point about a $3 latte, I am just saying: Warn people, be up-front in every way that you can that you are breaking out of the expected behavior of an already purchased iphone app.
Erik Boles twitter.com/ErikBoles
rickymaveety
· 2 months ago
I completely agree with you. This is the same way I felt about the "upgrade." However, Robert's point about the $3.00 latte just happens to fall on deaf ears in this household. That sort of waste of money on low priority goodies just isn't an option here.
ianbetteridge
· 2 months ago
Erik, if it doesn't offer value to you, the answer is simple: don't upgrade.
Personally, I would have paid twice as much for it, even though I bought version 1. I think it's simply a brilliant piece of design, full of things which surprise and delight me.
stevefarnworth
· 2 months ago
I wrote a long and detailed post in reply to someone in the comments sections here (mainly because they seem to be massively blinkered in their approach). Anyway, suffice to say, I'm not in the mood to get into a web-argument; so I'll outline my argument not as a direct response.
I fully agree with you Robert, there are paid apps and there are free apps on almost every other platform in the world. Apple charges you $30 for a 0.1 update in an OS and noone seems to bat an eyelid, yet a developer who has given the community (arguably) one of the best Twitter experiences for the iPhone community, that gets used 100's if not 1000's of hours a week, gets attacked for charging *$3* to get some some reward for their work?
You pay for the app in its current form. There is no contract between you and the developer that requires them to continually refine and improve that for the original price you paid, if they make substantial upgrades (like Tweetie has. Oh, and the Twitter ecosystem has changed massively since the first version, hence why it required a massive rewrite, *not* because the developer was bad), why can't they charge for it?
It's that kind of attitude that means that developer *wont* develop cool apps for the device. No money means not enough developers to create the interesting things, I'm sorry, but that's just the way the economy works. No reward = no product (of a commercial quality).
Chris Rossini
· 2 months ago
What $3 means to someone is subjective...I personally don't think that's the major issue.
I believe the error occurs when people think developers are *obligated* to create things for free. It's one thing if a developer *voluntarily* decides to do so...He or she may have reasons for making such a choice. There's obviously nothing wrong with giving voluntary gifts, if a person decides to do so.
But the mindset that developers *must* work for you, without any type of compensation, is actually quite tyrannical on the part of the user (customer). The developer has in essence become a type of slave.
Unfortunately, this mindset exists in other areas of our economy as well.
The lust for "something for nothing" is quite strong.
rickymaveety
· 2 months ago
I think the error occurs when developers don't charge what their program is really worth, and then give the people who use and support that program a break when it comes time to upgrade.
I've spent as much as $20 on several of my iPhone apps. The money was well spent. If the developer spent time on a major upgrade, I would not mind spending $10 or $15 on those upgrades, but I would balk at the need to pay $20 over and over again.
That's the sort of thing that makes me decide just to not buy the program until (if ever) it has all of the features that I want.
In the case of Tweetie, it didn't have the features I wanted the first time I bought it. It doesn't have all the features this time. So, I'm not going to throw another $3 at it. I will wait to see if Tweetie ever comes out with an upgrade that will actually be worth the money. What is out now is not worth it to me.
And, you are right, what $3 means to someone is entirely subjective. I don't think Scoble gets that. He seems convinced that because he likes to pay $3 for something everyday, then everyone MUST have something in their lives that they pay $3 for everyday (and that is lame). I've got 21 mouths in this house to feed (including my own), so "lame" habits are extremely low priority. I try my best to get actual value for every dollar I spend. I don't think that makes me a cheapskate, just a discerning consumer.
In fact, now that I think about it, I'd really love to have my original $3 back. I think I used Tweetie once and didn't like it at all. I'm not certain it was worth $3 just to try it out for an hour before deciding it kinda sucked.
OurielOhayon
· 2 months ago
Robert, you probably want to make a difference between apps that are Twitter clients and Apps that use Twitter as a way to broadcast a message as part of an experience, just like email (for example sharing a song you love on Last.fm does not make Last.fm a twitter app)
So there are no 4000+ twitter apps but 4000+apps that mention twitter in their description
rogerben
· 2 months ago
Robert: If it weren't for Apple's insistence on controlling the ins-and-outs of iPhone development, the Twitter client market wouldn't even exist. There would be a dozen open source apps out there doing the job quite nicely. We're not talking about something as complicated and asset-laden as game development here... Twitter apps are so ubiquitous because they're so easy to develop.
(SIDE NOTE: If you have to do a "complete rewrite" of an app that primarily queries an HTTP API and displays the results, then you really hosed things up in your 1.0 version. You should at least offer people a sheepish grin while charging for the update.)
Also, I don't see anyone expecting developers to work for free... people simply expect that once they pay for something that doesn't have a ton of intrinsic value to begin with, they're not gonna be asked to keep shelling out. After all, if I'm really gonna worry about the "developer ecosphere", then I'm better off giving my $3 to someone developing a 1.0 app in relative obscurity than throwing cash at a 2.0 product with a ton of hype behind it.
But now that I think about it, I'm not interested in encouraging *all* developers in the first place. "Mercenary" developers, for example; if the only thing that drives you to update and improve your app is an increase in sales, then I don't really care about you one way or the other. The people I want to throw money at are the folks who actually use their own stuff, and want to keep tweaking it so *they* can get more out of it. Developers like that aren't gonna abandon their products or hold out for an upgrade fee before innovating. As much as they need to pay the rent, they also want to make Cool Stuff, and they are among my heroes.
Scobleizer
· 2 months ago
Really? There's an open source version of Photoshop. Photoshop still sells a ton. There's an open source version of Microsoft Office. Microsoft Office still sells a ton. I will pay for an app that's well thought out. If it's that easy to build a good one all of them would be good and I can guarantee you that not all Twitter apps on iPhone are as good as Tweetie 2.0 is.
Erik Boles
· 2 months ago
@rogerben -- If it weren't for Apple controlling the apps for this device it would be a security nightmare. you would now have rogue, un-vetted, software running on a device that is more than a phone or PDA, it is a personal computing device that you use for everything from corporate email to banking.
Erik Boles twitter.com/ErikBoles
ianbetteridge
· 2 months ago
Erik, I run a personal computing device which has no problems at all with "rogue, un-vetted software". It's called a Mac, and I think it demonstrates that having a true free market for software doesn't necessarily lead to "a security nightmare".
Amit Gawande
· 2 months ago
If building a twitter app is so easy, why aren't there many apps even comparable Tweetie 2.0 in value. The reason is as a user, I don't judge the app's price by the complexity involved in its development. What makes more sense to me is the usability and usefulness of the app.
Am pretty sure if complexity was the only criteria, every app would have ended up being the same. And am pretty sure a lot of effort is spent also on design and not just the development of the app.
Matt Rix
· 2 months ago
I'm sick of coffee vs. app price comparisons, but your point is solid. There's a huge difference between updates and upgrades. You don't get these kinds of complaints nearly as much on other platforms unless the upgrade seems like an update, but that definitely isn't the case here. It's a whole new app.
robdiana
· 2 months ago
It seems like everyone forgot that most software costs money for every update. If you look on your PC, every version of Microsoft Office costs money. Most paid anti-virus software has a monthly subscription to get virus definition updates and is normally $10-$15 per month. An iPhone app that costs less than a cup of Starbucks I find difficult to complain about. How much do these same people pay for monthly subscriptions for other services?
Abie
· 2 months ago
Well said, Scoble. That this is even controversial reflects poorly on us as "educated consumers" (as Sy Syms used to say).
tehdik
· 2 months ago
I agree. Well said. Any thoughts on Birdfeed? That was the app I used when I got tired of Tweetie 1.0.
Scobleizer
· 2 months ago
I had used Birdfeed a while back but there was something I didn't like, but I forget what now. I'll have to try it out for a while to see, but Tweetie is so good that I doubt it will match up.
tehdik
· 2 months ago
Birdfeed is great if you're focused on the timeline and not replies/DMs. You get more vertical real estate dedicated to tweets when there's no bottom bar menu.
Kelly Adams
· 2 months ago
Well said, Robert. I just don't get the sense of entitlement some people have. $2 for an upgrade is *nothing*: I drop that much on coffee a couple of times a day, just as you say.
None of these people complaining, in my opinion, have ever had to actually create anything worthy of the definition. Either that, or they have lived privileged and sheltered lives without ever actually needing to make an income.
And note that, of course, none of this is unique to the iPhone: I said almost exactly the same thing about TweetGenius on the BlackBerry back in May=> http://www.kgadams.net/2009/05/31/why-are-so-ma...
Jason Alexander
· 2 months ago
I am pretty happy with the app store prices. I used to have a Palm III, then HandSpring Visor, then an HP hx4705 beast of a pda, and all of the apps for these platforms were $15 or $20 and you didn't even get much for it. I was about ready to just give in to piracy.
But on the iPhone, there are tons of decent functional apps for free, $1 or $5!! Holy cow. I agree that $3 is a bargain. I would have to really, really need an app to pay more than $10, though.
JolieODell
· 2 months ago
"If your product isn't free, the Internet will make it free." --something I heard at a panel on piracy during a tech show.
I'm not an iPhone user, but I do wonder if/when/where pirated apps exist.
However, as a huge supporter of startups and good ideas in general, I'm not sure I want to know.
Erik Boles
· 2 months ago
Jolie,
This is where Apple has done a really good job at abating piracy, and I appreciate what they have done. unless you jailbreak your phone, you cannot pirate the apple software (okay, well, you can for up to 3 phones with your buddies, but not widespread like other apps.
I think you will see more things in the future go to 3rd party arbitration to abate piracy.
Erik Boles twitter.com/ErikBoles
ian_wright
· 2 months ago
Apple needs to give an option for developers to have paid upgrades. Simple as.
A developer works, a developer gets paid on his quality of work. Simple as.
Cheapskates is right. You tip at Starbucks for people to make your coffee as well right?
hadoualex
· 2 months ago
Yep I hear what you say and I agree with you. Minor updates to fix bugs in early versions of a program shouldn't require payment but for a major upgrade should. The encouragement of developers is necessary as to drive forward with new projects that would benefit the end user. There are plataforms where the developers have left (palm os) because of the lack of consumers wanting to pay for apps, which end up with the consumers leaving afterwards for the lack of innovation.
Roberto Teixeira
· 2 months ago
How much is iPhone spoiling us? Robert, I agree with you 100%. If a software developer cannot charge $3 for a completely rewritten app with plenty of new features then I think we're in trouble.
On that note... @atebits, you rock Sir! Congratulations on a great release.
rickymaveety
· 2 months ago
I don't waste my money at Starbucks paying for overpriced lattes. You do, and how nice for you, however, I fail to see how that makes me a "cheapskate." From my perspective we simply have different priorities with regard to spending money. As noted on Twitter, I wasn't all that impressed with Tweetie the first time I paid for it, but then I thought that, like most iPhone developers, they would make up for the program's major shortcomings via free upgrades. It was a lesson learned -- I regretted spending that first three bucks soon after the purchase, I'm certainly not going to keep buying from that developer and expecting a different outcome.
Scobleizer
· 2 months ago
OK, you probably buy something for $3 that isn't worth it. Sunday New York Times? Bag of gourmet potato chips? A bottle of cheap wine at the grocery store? Just replace latte with your lame cheap habit.
Carolyn Chan
· 2 months ago
Totally agree. That one star because someone didn't think they should pay for an upgrade is not fair to a developer who is charging so little already on an app. (oops double posted)
Chris Heath
· 2 months ago
I guess it's a good thing I never paid for Tweetie 1.0 then...
jshmrsn
· 2 months ago
Robert, I agree with your conclusion, but you might also be interested in this post that goes into detail about the issues with providing upgrades on the AppStore: http://majicjungle.com/blog/?p=206
rickymaveety
· 2 months ago
No, none of the above. I don't smoke, seldom drink, don't eat chips, in fact my whole food bill for any one day is probably less than $3.00. I do allow myself one can of Coke a day ... but that's about 35 cents.
And, my point is still that I didn't think much of Tweetie on the first go round. Why would I give them yet another chance to rip me off again? Rather than harping on the lame habits you think I should have (and which I apparently don't have), why not address that?
eoin73
· 2 months ago
Whatever. No doubt you cook for youself and never go out, never have a smoothie etc. That would make you very very unusual so color us suspectful. That said - you have an iPhone. That, and the plan you had to get from AT&T inidicates that you have a high disposable income. Paying $3 for an upgrade for an application that will be used everyday for hours and hours is to ask of you nothing. However, if you dont like it, stop whining, Just dont buy it.
rickymaveety
· 2 months ago
Not whining. And, I'm not buying it. It's not so much that I am "unusual" ... it's simply that (1) I live out in the middle of nowhere, and (2) my iPhone is pretty much my only link with the outside. The landline is only for emergencies.
I don't think I'd mind "if" I was paying for an upgrade that I would actually use for hours and hours, but that wasn't the point, and still isn't the point.
Mr. Scoble (and you) seem to think that everyone should have exactly the same priorities about spending their disposable income as you do. If we don't then we are .... to quote Mr. Scoble ... either "lame" or "cheapskates."
You take it one step further, if we state our priorities (that they are not all about lattes), then we are "whiners." Name calling does not make for much of an argument, and if you have to stoop to that, then the basis for your argument must be extremely weak.
chrish341
· 2 months ago
Ricky, I am also judicious about spending my hard earned, but it shouldn't be an argument about the cost. $3 or $30 or $300, it should be about two things:
1) Is it justifiable for the developer to charge? On computers, some developers skip incremental upgrades and label any update as a full upgrade
2) Are we pre-warned that we will be charged. Eric says that we weren't.
If it we know how much it's going to cost, and that cost is justifiable, then it's up to us to decide if it fits out budget.
The problem is developers (on all platforms) are too keen to rush to the next 'x.o' of an app, whether it justifies the moniker or not.
It is of great concern though that the AppStore has created this new culture of free upgrades. I think Apple screwed up there. Full upgrades should be charged for. It's up to the buyer to decide if the upgrade warrants paying for. And then the iPhone needs a flag to let you skip a version if you don't want it (I'm thinking NetNewsWire 2.0 here, which I can't bag enough)
Thomas
· 2 months ago
"It is of great concern though that the AppStore has created this new culture of free upgrades. I think Apple screwed up there. Full upgrades should be charged for."
It appears many devs are missing the point here: Apple did not create the iPhone or the AppStore for devs to get rich quick. They couldn't care less. The device and its ecosystem were built for the consumer. It's just so that Apple's own devs couldn't quench the thirst for apps so they invented the AppStore and generously let you in. You should be grateful that they let you publish your app on Apple's superior platform and only take 30% of your revenue for this service.
chrish341
· 2 months ago
"You should be grateful that they let you publish your app on Apple's superior platform"
Hehehh. Except, Thomas, I'm not a developer. I'm just a customer and I expect to pay for products.
I don't go into my supermarket and say "I bought this same milk last week, so it should be free this week"
I don't go to the movies and say "I don't have to pay because this is a sequel and I paid to see the first one"
I don't go to buy Toy Story 2 and say "I shouldn't have to pay because I own Toy Story 1"
I don't expect JK Rowling to give me the 6 Harry Potter sequels for free because I bought the first one.
I don't go to my local printer and say "I paid for the first print run of my business cards so I don't have to pay again."
I don't tell my web developer that any changes I request in the future will be done for free.
iPhone App developers have as much right as anyone else to expect that they should get paid for their work.
As a customer, I am happy to pay and support them and their application.
This benefits me too because if they want me to pay for upgrades then they've got to make sure those upgrades are worth it. So instead of being mired in the dross of a thousand get-rich-quick wannabes, this lets the genuine developers rise to the top and be seen, and their applications get much better.
(Which also reminds me, Apple's "Top 25" system is totally screwed up. It seems to be based on downloads. Too often a "Top 25" app has only one or two or three stars. There's no list for the top *rated* apps.)
And again, as a customer I am happy to pay for any justifiable upgrades.
JamesKatt
· 2 months ago
I think one way for developers to skirt the issue of upgrades is to create two versions of their app. Tweetie 1.x can be sold simultaneously with Tweetie 2.x.
This way, those who bought the first version can stop bitching, because their app still exists. Sure, it won't be upgraded, other than by compatibility upgrades, but then, they did pay for the feature set they already have. So they can't complain.
The second version can be given the name, Tweetie Pro, or something similar to indicate something big happened under the hood - such as a complete rewrite. Users of this new app will enjoy all the new features and performance enhancements this version has.
Tah Dah. Just got rid of whining cheapskate pests.
tdhurst
· 2 months ago
Woohoo! I'm all in here. It's $3. Enough of the whining from the cheap bastards. FREE DOESN'T WORK.
bill_free
· 2 months ago
Thank you.
Schaeffer
· 2 months ago
A similar problem exists for any designer, including architects of the building type. It's a small % of people who not only appreciate good design, but value the service and professionalism that goes into the making of the thing. In the architectural world, I'm looking for the micropayment model and tracking the media/journalism conversation threads. I applaud the iPhone app model, and will gladly keep paying for incremental upgrades. rock on!
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· 2 months ago
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Scobleizer
· 2 months ago
Chris: yeah, sorry, I do have moderation on for new people and this one snuck through and I missed it the past couple of days. I think I got it all now, though. Thanks!
Glenn Hilton
· 2 months ago
Tweetie 2 for the iPhone is my favourite app ever for the iPhone. I'd pay $10 or more for it. But have to agree I found it a bit odd at first to have to download & pay for an upgrade.Obviously it's great when you can get things for free, but when something's free but if something's good, you'll pay for it and Tweetie 2 is great!
Porter
· 2 months ago
I think it's crazy that people expect free updates. The people who create them generally work 10x harder on a day to day basis then those who complain, they have no idea what it's like trying to finally get a hit app, let alone make money off it like one should once reaching this.
Lee Jones
· 2 months ago
As a software developer, all I can say is Thank You! Even minor point releases cost a lot of time and money and $3 certainly doesn't afford one a life time subscription to an app.
Rewai
· 2 months ago
Paying ones way is part of life, I don't get it that people want free all the time. There's free out there, but it's elsewhere. The economic system we adopt is geared around choice.
I'm thoroughly enjoying the new Tweetie 2.0 for the iPhone. I'm finding it much more responsive and it's now my iPhone Twitter App of choice. The new feature list is impressive, to me it's almost a new App.
If I might digress slightly.
I purchased Tweetie for my Mac. I paid something like $20 for it, and it's a far less complete product. For example, I often "favourite" a Tweet on my iPhone and read it on a more friendly screen. However having read the Tweet, I'd like to "unfavourite" it. Tweetie on the desktop doesn't do that.
I like paying for Applications because it gives the author a return on their work, it shows my appreciation for what they have created and gives them incentive to develop further. Fantastic.
I however expect that if I pay for something, that it's most basic features are operational. There have been several upgrades to Tweetie for the Desktop, but still no ability to unfavourite.
Why not?
Learn German software
· 2 months ago
Tweetie 2.0, that is I am loving to try, it is good to get to know your experience. thanks a lot!
Linda Creech
· 2 months ago
I need to pass my term paper to be able to buy me a iphone by my mother. hehehe...
Renew Passports
· 2 months ago
I am glad to hear your sane viewpoint. Far too many folks feel entitled to free software and this trend will ultimately lead to less innovative new software being released.
All Comments
The disconnect between consumers expectations and the reality of the ongoing costs to build and update apps is partially due to the "iPhone App Gold Rush" propaganda - which has led many to believe that apps are "easy" to build & they're all getting hundreds of thousands of downloads.
It likely cost $25k to $75K minimum to build Tweetie 2.0, plus they have ongoing costs. It is an absolute steal for $2.99.
If it weren't for the "false economy" on The App Store, Tweetie would be at least $29.99 and it would still be a good value.
That really highlights the different market expectation that has been created on the iPhone.
Is the Mac app 6 times better than the iPhone? Hardly. In fact, the iPhone version may be just as useful or even more useful.
Two Voices | Two Guys
The sequel continues elements of the original story, often with the same characters and settings. Sequels build on this familiarity with a installed fan base. People pay for sequels (look no further than the publishing sector where sequels turn into series or in the film industry where the majority of moves have a number following the title).
Bravo for saying this Robert! The whole entitled free culture thing drives me nuts.
I have absolutely NO problem at all paying for software. Nobody works for free, I can appreciate that, I have developed a lot of web apps in my day and wouldn't have done it for free.
Here is where my problems lie:
-- I don't see this as a ground-up re-write of an app. I am not disputing that they did re-write their code from the ground up, I am saying it wasn't necessary. there are some cool enhancements to Tweetie 1.0, but it isn't a totally new, kick-ass, oh my god how did they do this, they must be geniuses that walk on water, twitter app. They added some functonality.
-- Now, again, this doesn't mean that I shouldn't (or wouldn't) pay a nominal fee ($0.99 ??) for an 'update' to the app, but paying as much or more than the original app price.....
--There is a precedence here with iphone apps. I have bought hundreds of apps over the last few years for my iphone, and the expectation is that you but it once, you down the new version and, right before download it pops-up a message saying "You have already paid for this app, you will not be charged for this version". Now, it would be VERY easy for them to pop-up another window that says "this is a new version of this app, you will be charged for the new version", but it doesn't do that, it simply starts downloading, and you get charged when you don't expect to.
--Give people an option. build an ad-based option (where you, as the developer, will most likely make a lot MORE money from the ad revenue than you will from a one-time $3). If people want an ad-free option, it is there, if not, let them eat cake.
All this being said, I obviously was excited for the app, that is why I downloaded it, and got charged for it when I didn't expect to be. I use it, I like it, does it totally blow my mind? No. Does it have some cool features? Yes. Will Simplytweet, Tweetdeck, or someone else out there release another app in the next 45 days that does even more cool stuff that I will have to pay for again? Yes. The sum of it all is so not $3 a year for a twitter app.
But Robert does make a good point about a $3 latte, I am just saying: Warn people, be up-front in every way that you can that you are breaking out of the expected behavior of an already purchased iphone app.
Erik Boles
twitter.com/ErikBoles
Personally, I would have paid twice as much for it, even though I bought version 1. I think it's simply a brilliant piece of design, full of things which surprise and delight me.
I fully agree with you Robert, there are paid apps and there are free apps on almost every other platform in the world. Apple charges you $30 for a 0.1 update in an OS and noone seems to bat an eyelid, yet a developer who has given the community (arguably) one of the best Twitter experiences for the iPhone community, that gets used 100's if not 1000's of hours a week, gets attacked for charging *$3* to get some some reward for their work?
You pay for the app in its current form. There is no contract between you and the developer that requires them to continually refine and improve that for the original price you paid, if they make substantial upgrades (like Tweetie has. Oh, and the Twitter ecosystem has changed massively since the first version, hence why it required a massive rewrite, *not* because the developer was bad), why can't they charge for it?
It's that kind of attitude that means that developer *wont* develop cool apps for the device. No money means not enough developers to create the interesting things, I'm sorry, but that's just the way the economy works. No reward = no product (of a commercial quality).
I believe the error occurs when people think developers are *obligated* to create things for free. It's one thing if a developer *voluntarily* decides to do so...He or she may have reasons for making such a choice. There's obviously nothing wrong with giving voluntary gifts, if a person decides to do so.
But the mindset that developers *must* work for you, without any type of compensation, is actually quite tyrannical on the part of the user (customer). The developer has in essence become a type of slave.
Unfortunately, this mindset exists in other areas of our economy as well.
The lust for "something for nothing" is quite strong.
I've spent as much as $20 on several of my iPhone apps. The money was well spent. If the developer spent time on a major upgrade, I would not mind spending $10 or $15 on those upgrades, but I would balk at the need to pay $20 over and over again.
That's the sort of thing that makes me decide just to not buy the program until (if ever) it has all of the features that I want.
In the case of Tweetie, it didn't have the features I wanted the first time I bought it. It doesn't have all the features this time. So, I'm not going to throw another $3 at it. I will wait to see if Tweetie ever comes out with an upgrade that will actually be worth the money. What is out now is not worth it to me.
And, you are right, what $3 means to someone is entirely subjective. I don't think Scoble gets that. He seems convinced that because he likes to pay $3 for something everyday, then everyone MUST have something in their lives that they pay $3 for everyday (and that is lame). I've got 21 mouths in this house to feed (including my own), so "lame" habits are extremely low priority. I try my best to get actual value for every dollar I spend. I don't think that makes me a cheapskate, just a discerning consumer.
In fact, now that I think about it, I'd really love to have my original $3 back. I think I used Tweetie once and didn't like it at all. I'm not certain it was worth $3 just to try it out for an hour before deciding it kinda sucked.
So there are no 4000+ twitter apps but 4000+apps that mention twitter in their description
(SIDE NOTE: If you have to do a "complete rewrite" of an app that primarily queries an HTTP API and displays the results, then you really hosed things up in your 1.0 version. You should at least offer people a sheepish grin while charging for the update.)
Also, I don't see anyone expecting developers to work for free... people simply expect that once they pay for something that doesn't have a ton of intrinsic value to begin with, they're not gonna be asked to keep shelling out. After all, if I'm really gonna worry about the "developer ecosphere", then I'm better off giving my $3 to someone developing a 1.0 app in relative obscurity than throwing cash at a 2.0 product with a ton of hype behind it.
But now that I think about it, I'm not interested in encouraging *all* developers in the first place. "Mercenary" developers, for example; if the only thing that drives you to update and improve your app is an increase in sales, then I don't really care about you one way or the other. The people I want to throw money at are the folks who actually use their own stuff, and want to keep tweaking it so *they* can get more out of it. Developers like that aren't gonna abandon their products or hold out for an upgrade fee before innovating. As much as they need to pay the rent, they also want to make Cool Stuff, and they are among my heroes.
Erik Boles
twitter.com/ErikBoles
Am pretty sure if complexity was the only criteria, every app would have ended up being the same. And am pretty sure a lot of effort is spent also on design and not just the development of the app.
Any thoughts on Birdfeed? That was the app I used when I got tired of Tweetie 1.0.
None of these people complaining, in my opinion, have ever had to actually create anything worthy of the definition. Either that, or they have lived privileged and sheltered lives without ever actually needing to make an income.
And note that, of course, none of this is unique to the iPhone: I said almost exactly the same thing about TweetGenius on the BlackBerry back in May=> http://www.kgadams.net/2009/05/31/why-are-so-ma...
But on the iPhone, there are tons of decent functional apps for free, $1 or $5!! Holy cow. I agree that $3 is a bargain. I would have to really, really need an app to pay more than $10, though.
I'm not an iPhone user, but I do wonder if/when/where pirated apps exist.
However, as a huge supporter of startups and good ideas in general, I'm not sure I want to know.
This is where Apple has done a really good job at abating piracy, and I appreciate what they have done. unless you jailbreak your phone, you cannot pirate the apple software (okay, well, you can for up to 3 phones with your buddies, but not widespread like other apps.
I think you will see more things in the future go to 3rd party arbitration to abate piracy.
Erik Boles
twitter.com/ErikBoles
A developer works, a developer gets paid on his quality of work. Simple as.
Cheapskates is right. You tip at Starbucks for people to make your coffee as well right?
On that note... @atebits, you rock Sir! Congratulations on a great release.
And, my point is still that I didn't think much of Tweetie on the first go round. Why would I give them yet another chance to rip me off again? Rather than harping on the lame habits you think I should have (and which I apparently don't have), why not address that?
I don't think I'd mind "if" I was paying for an upgrade that I would actually use for hours and hours, but that wasn't the point, and still isn't the point.
Mr. Scoble (and you) seem to think that everyone should have exactly the same priorities about spending their disposable income as you do. If we don't then we are .... to quote Mr. Scoble ... either "lame" or "cheapskates."
You take it one step further, if we state our priorities (that they are not all about lattes), then we are "whiners." Name calling does not make for much of an argument, and if you have to stoop to that, then the basis for your argument must be extremely weak.
1) Is it justifiable for the developer to charge? On computers, some developers skip incremental upgrades and label any update as a full upgrade
2) Are we pre-warned that we will be charged. Eric says that we weren't.
If it we know how much it's going to cost, and that cost is justifiable, then it's up to us to decide if it fits out budget.
The problem is developers (on all platforms) are too keen to rush to the next 'x.o' of an app, whether it justifies the moniker or not.
It is of great concern though that the AppStore has created this new culture of free upgrades. I think Apple screwed up there. Full upgrades should be charged for. It's up to the buyer to decide if the upgrade warrants paying for. And then the iPhone needs a flag to let you skip a version if you don't want it (I'm thinking NetNewsWire 2.0 here, which I can't bag enough)
It appears many devs are missing the point here: Apple did not create the iPhone or the AppStore for devs to get rich quick. They couldn't care less. The device and its ecosystem were built for the consumer. It's just so that Apple's own devs couldn't quench the thirst for apps so they invented the AppStore and generously let you in. You should be grateful that they let you publish your app on Apple's superior platform and only take 30% of your revenue for this service.
Hehehh. Except, Thomas, I'm not a developer. I'm just a customer and I expect to pay for products.
I don't go into my supermarket and say "I bought this same milk last week, so it should be free this week"
I don't go to the movies and say "I don't have to pay because this is a sequel and I paid to see the first one"
I don't go to buy Toy Story 2 and say "I shouldn't have to pay because I own Toy Story 1"
I don't expect JK Rowling to give me the 6 Harry Potter sequels for free because I bought the first one.
I don't go to my local printer and say "I paid for the first print run of my business cards so I don't have to pay again."
I don't tell my web developer that any changes I request in the future will be done for free.
iPhone App developers have as much right as anyone else to expect that they should get paid for their work.
As a customer, I am happy to pay and support them and their application.
This benefits me too because if they want me to pay for upgrades then they've got to make sure those upgrades are worth it. So instead of being mired in the dross of a thousand get-rich-quick wannabes, this lets the genuine developers rise to the top and be seen, and their applications get much better.
(Which also reminds me, Apple's "Top 25" system is totally screwed up. It seems to be based on downloads. Too often a "Top 25" app has only one or two or three stars. There's no list for the top *rated* apps.)
And again, as a customer I am happy to pay for any justifiable upgrades.
Tweetie 1.x can be sold simultaneously with Tweetie 2.x.
This way, those who bought the first version can stop bitching, because their app still exists. Sure, it won't be upgraded, other than by compatibility upgrades, but then, they did pay for the feature set they already have. So they can't complain.
The second version can be given the name, Tweetie Pro, or something similar to indicate something big happened under the hood - such as a complete rewrite. Users of this new app will enjoy all the new features and performance enhancements this version has.
Tah Dah.
Just got rid of whining cheapskate pests.
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I'm thoroughly enjoying the new Tweetie 2.0 for the iPhone. I'm finding it much more responsive and it's now my iPhone Twitter App of choice. The new feature list is impressive, to me it's almost a new App.
If I might digress slightly.
I purchased Tweetie for my Mac. I paid something like $20 for it, and it's a far less complete product. For example, I often "favourite" a Tweet on my iPhone and read it on a more friendly screen. However having read the Tweet, I'd like to "unfavourite" it. Tweetie on the desktop doesn't do that.
I like paying for Applications because it gives the author a return on their work, it shows my appreciation for what they have created and gives them incentive to develop further. Fantastic.
I however expect that if I pay for something, that it's most basic features are operational. There have been several upgrades to Tweetie for the Desktop, but still no ability to unfavourite.
Why not?
http://www.passporthelpline.com/Renew-Passport/...