Scobleizer: Danah is confused by Facebook’s fans
marcel weiß
· 2 years ago
Good arguments, Robert. You miss one point though: probably only a small minority has houndreds of friends on facebook. And you're probably the first and only one yet to reach the 5000-Limit. As the Facebook-Team focuses on a network based on real-life-contacts maybe their main priority isn't Scalability in those high, everestlike areas?
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Facebook says that hundreds of people have hit the limit of 5,000.
Before they put in place the limit one person got very popular and got to more than 100,000 friends.
On MySpace one guy has millions of friends, but that was designed into the service.
Jerome Paradis
· 2 years ago
For point #1, will you help me test my Facebook app with 5000 friends? :-)
In my spare time, I'm working for fun on a Facebook app and I currently doubt that it would scale well with 5000 friends. :-( With this possibility in mind, there are some things that I could do with the interface to make it possible. I just want to point out that the problem is not in the scalability of the platform, but in the scalability of the apps being developed. If developers don't take into account that a Facebook member can have many hundreds of friends, it is doubtful it will scale well.
What I think is needed for the platform - and there are rumors they are working on it - is the possibility of defining lists of friends. For the application I have in mind, it wouldn't make sense to use it for up to 5000 friends. It would make sense to use it for a list of predefined friends (family, co-workers, influencers, etc.)
Robert Scoble
· 2 years ago
Jerome: sure! I love beta testing cool apps. If it doesn't work it only takes a few seconds.
Steve
· 2 years ago
I have fooled around with my privacy settings for everything I can find in there, and one application that is different than them all which irks me: The Wall.
You cant really remove the wall, you can hide it from everyone. You cant let people post but not have the wall posts show up. It would be nice to be able to say "i just want these people to use the wall" or any application for that matter. Basically that or have a moderation system. When someone comes home drunk at 2am and writes something on your wall, its there, and if you are sleeping, you can't remove it until the next day. Also when someone tags you in a photo, you cant really remove it. Someone could put up a risque photo of you, tag it and its there for everyone to see. Not good...if you are trying to keep your profile more professional..
The Wall has become open email for many people, or IM between two people, but with public view. The Wall is a special application that you can't really remove.
Also, the news/mini feed. They started adding the "Top 5 in Blah" now, if you click on them they call them "All Fluff" stories, you cant change any setting to remove these. There are a few other story types you can't remove either. It seems some options they haven't implemented yet. They implement the functionality then later come back and implement settings, not good either , in my opinion.
Julian Bond
· 2 years ago
You know what, I'm really, really tired of the ageism in this industry. I must be getting old! College kids, over-30, over-50. Whatever. Tonight I heard that a major growth segment on Facebook are grannies. Its the best way for them to reach their grandchildren across the world.
And the best bit about Facebook? It's that it's completely pointless. ;) At least MySpace can be justified on grounds of personal branding and publicity. Facebook's login wall prevents even that.
I'm not the only one that compares Facebook '07 with AOL '97. But I think that's the wrong metaphor. Facebook is actually Coney Island '57.
Michael Markman
· 2 years ago
Robert, stop perpetuating the myth that Mac was steamrollered by a more open platform. Mac was always a challenger brand with a small minority share.
In 1981 IBM PC and PC-DOS (AKA MS-DOS) were challenger brands. But by the time Mac showed up in 1984, MS-DOS was already dominant. Mac couldn't even beat DOS!
When Windows 3 was released in 1990. Windows steamrollered DOS. Mac held its (tiny patch of) ground.
Apple worked very hard to pull in developers... they were stymied more by eonomics (it was hard to get funded for the small Mac user population when the Windows target seemed so much fatter).
Make your case for open systems using supportable evidence. Not your private mythology
Jerome Paradis
· 2 years ago
Robert: Thanks! I'll take your word. I'll contact you in about a week or so. I am sure that with the current interface, it won't work for you. I'll make the necessary tweaks so I don't waste you time.
Mike
· 2 years ago
I'd like to be able to join two city networks. I live in Ft. Lauderdale but my company is in Vancouver (I telecommute). I'd like to be able to belong to both networks, since I have more friends in the Vancouver network than my home network.
Connie Bensen
· 2 years ago
Hey Robert, I've seen your angst about the Facebook friends limit. What if while you're waiting.. you created another (because there can be multiple of the same name) & then once they take that limit off, you could merge them? Just a suggestion - I realize it's not ideal.
realitycheck
· 2 years ago
Please wise up.
in terms of comment 2: nobody has 5000 friends. it is impossible to have 100k friends.
People need to sit back and realise what the word "friend" really means, as opposed to some RSS addict on the other side of the world whom you will never meet but who has spent 5 seconds "adding" you as a "friend".
This is self-aggrandising on a worryingly huge level. Thankfully it means nothing to the real world.
alan p
· 2 years ago
@ Julian...Coney Island 57?
Agree re AOL, blogged that point before...so who will build Mosaic '07?
spncram
· 2 years ago
I like the max-on-friends rule; it makes facebook more private. If you want a fan club, start a myspace profile.
There are many things that FB needs to revise if they expect to be accepted mainstream. Perhaps they don't. But when I can't put my "relationship status" because there is no category for me and the only work option is that of an employee...well, all those assumptions regarding who I am and who I can't be is off-putting.
Bob
· 2 years ago
Personally, I’m on the other end of the scale “I don’t want any walls between me and anyone who wants to see me.” I guess that’s why I have a blog along with a Facebook profile.
This is why folks took exception when you placed content that was available only on FB a few weeks ago. There was a definite wall placed between you and your audience. I suspect your blog reaches far wider than the 5000 "friends" you have on FB.
John McCrea
· 2 years ago
Robert, Great to see you at Office 2.0. I hope you found something cool there! Thanks for the great support here around Plaxo's role in working enable an "open social web." Read more at http://opensocialweb.org.
jcricket
· 2 years ago
Robert - I'm afraid you have a far more optimistic view on what's going to happen when the "digital trails" that all the kids are leaving these days follow them into the workplace.
I'm all for FB or MySpace or whatever as a place for fun, but the reality is that employers will continue to take a dim light on people who do ridiculous stuff and find it necessary to post about it on the public Internet.
I know that my employer has already rejected one prospective candidate who listed her MySpace on her resume (a MySpace that referenced her mildly illegal antics).
I did plenty of similarly stupid stuff in my youth, I'm just glad there isn't a instantly searchable, totally accessible, forever archived record of all that insanity floating around. Kids need the space to experiment, and they're always going to be doing things that they later chalk up as "youthful indiscretions". I'm just not sure that excuse will hold water with employers when they're choosing whether to offer you an internship or a job and your FB or archive.org or a google search of you shows lots of drunken ranting.
Julian Bond
· 2 years ago
Coney Island '57? A mildly down market funfair where everyone from NY congregated at the weekend and got mildly out of control with their friends. But then I'm not an American so maybe I have a distorted view of what it was like. For the Brits reading, try Butlins '67
One way or another society is going to have to come to terms with having no privacy and the past being permanently available in all it's gory detail. What you did in your late teens should have nothing to do with your ability to function in your late 20s. And frankly if an employer is bothered by this you probably don't want to work for them. But then what about potential politicians and public sector workers? "I did not inhale". Oh yes, you did. And I found the Flickr photograph to prove it.
Mario Ruiz
· 2 years ago
Dear Robert,
1. mass messaging: there is a middle point. You should be allowed to send a message to your community. The community should have the option of mass or not mass message. They should publish this info before you join.
3. Join a City network. I recommend to allow us to join or change before the 60 days.
5. if you install an App, you give the creator access to all of your profile data (no one reads those checkboxes anyhow). My recommendation to Facebook is to make three levels of data and to choose the type of data we like to share with anyone.
7. Is [the over-30] crowd sustainable? Is it worth it monetarily? Yes I am working is a application to give some professional value to it. I guess other people will do the same thing over time.
Re: Your #6 comment, "And those college students will be very happy when employers start contacting them with career opportunities (or better)."
Nay, my friend. I'm not sure if you've friended any college students on Facebook and then perused their photos and comments but for a large portion of the student population in America, Facebook is a memory repository of things you did last night that you do not remember.
Employers will start throwing out college students' job applications when they see their Facebook profile on a google search; not the other way around.
As a former college student, I have to admit it rankles me a little bit that all these 30+ year olds are suddenly adoring Facebook as some divine tool for social change. For college students, it's a snapshot of what you support (Obama, your home state, bringing garlic mashed potatoes back to the cafeteria), a repository for pictures of your weekend (or weeknight) debauchery or trips with friends, and a quick, easy, and public way to stay in touch with your friends.
Try as all of you might, I don't think I'll ever take Facebook seriously as an influential service.
Jeff
· 2 years ago
The opening of Facebook content to search engines may have a silver lining. Many college students and recent grads feel a personal violation takes place when potential employers search social networking sites as part of a background check. For better or worse, it is the reality of today's world. The fact that 95% of people now carry a camera 24/7 just makes it a bit more scary.
Though "we've all done it", a nice party photo of a half-dressed, obviously inebriated student lives in perpetuity in today's world.
The silver lining? Our talented young folks may think twice before posting those entertaining pictures.
For all of us, our personal lives lived in public places just isn't so private anymore. Thank goodness my college life days were pre-camera phones!
Montoya
· 2 years ago
Robert, if you want to surround yourself with all 1 million of the fanboys & fangirls who idolize you, just make yourself a group on Facebook. That's the way to connect with your 'fans.' Leave friends for what it actually means; people you have made a connection with.
The Tattooed Guru
· 2 years ago
I've just started using FaceBook, and LOVE IT! I've found that is useful for personal AND business purposes. And who really has 100,000 friends anyway????
Ali
· 2 years ago
I've just joined facebook so this was interesting to read
Bill Snyder
· 2 years ago
I agree completely on the networks issue being confusing. People have networks and groups, and when you first arrive on facebook, it's hard to distinguish. Actually, this is really a holdover from its beginnings as a college tool. I also find it frustrating that, as someone who graduated before facebook and doesn't have an email address at my college's domain, I can't join its network. If I were graduating this year, I'd already be in the network and could stay on as an alum. I also find it frustrating that I can't make my profile more public. For me,it's a networking tool, and I want people to find me.
All that said, I like facebook. It's modular, and that makes it scalable (perhaps not as much as people would like, but better than many tools). It allows me to stay in contact with colleagues and friends who I see rarely, thanks to its new feed. Professionally, that keeps colleagues on my mind and me on theirs, even if a year goes between our meeting and our first collaboration. For friends, well, it stops people from drifting away.
I think the biggest problem is that there really isn't anything exactly like facebook. Like a lot of social media tools, you really have to just start using it to figure out what it is. Twitter is the same way. I could describe it to someone until I'm blue in the face, but it really doesn't sink in until you start using it.
When I first got on facebook, I would have loved a small -- well, tutorial may more involved than what I'm looking for, but some sort of introduction that gives new members a sense of what a network is, what a group is, how apps work, how privacy works, and a bit of social etiquette. (e.g., when do you message and when do you write on a wall, or maybe even what a wall is.) I think social etiquette may be the most important part. People are more likely to join a community if they feel comfortable in their interactions. If your engaged in other forms of social media, you'll figure out facebook. For those who aren't, it would be nice to have a helping hand.
zephoria
· 2 years ago
Thanks for your response - it's very much appreciated. Your comments on wanting to be visible remind me of a critical tension that is at play in the narratives around social network sites. MySpace, at a core, is all about being AS VISIBLE AS POSSIBLE. This is true technologically and for a huge chunk of its audience. Facebook, on the other hand, prided itself on being the anti-MySpace. Part of how it publicly differentiated itself was through the network-driven privacy structure. This is how they avoided all of the public damage when the Attorneys General and Congress went after MySpace. This is how they earned the trust of parents who heard of horror stories about MySpace. This is how they became an institution for so many of the early adopters. The 30+ crowd does not have such neatly contained networks, especially the kind of 30+ crowd that FB attracted. Their friends are not geographically proximate, they are not connected to one school or company network. Thus, that structure doesn't work for the new audience. And then there are people like you who WANT to be public, want to be visible to everyone and anyone, want to be as searchable as possible. The difference between you and most MySpace folks who are seeking such public attention is that you have it already. (Cuz structurally, you fit far more into MySpace's paradigm than Facebook's...) How is Facebook going to open up to manage what you want and still be protective for its early adopters? Why are their defaults public-centric when the public people know how to make themselves more public but the private-minded folks often don't know how to protect themselves?
(un)relaxeddad
· 2 years ago
At some point, FB are going to realise that it isn't their service anymore. Digg and the like have learned that lesson - can Zuckerberg?
Bertil
· 2 years ago
> it’s the first time we’ve been able to see what our friends have loaded on their machines
Well actually, I met two entrepreneurs from Amsterdam who offer something that did just that — but I digress.
On the problem at hand, I beleive that Networks need to be reconsidered and though through. About your own personal issues: - with the limit on the number of friends, I'm not sure it makes sense to share private details to that many person, and not prefer to define a closer circle; if you do sincerly have an argument for not having less then that many invites to your birthday party, I assume Facebook will try to suit you; I just can't imagine reasonnable symetric relations on that scale; - apps aren't perfect; but more importantly, there should be one for your kind: call it Fan, Star or Very Interactive Person, and make it suit your needs: an asymetric relation between a very vocal & open host, and his very numerous guests. People would subscribe either as member of a Rock-Star/Band/Guru, or as a Follower.
Any one around to do that?
If you do
Jesus
· 1 year ago
The main issue with facebook is that its waayyyyyyyy too standardized. There is little room for customization and far too many unchangeable presets. And I'm just going to say the entire concept of networks is retarded. Its equally as sh!tty as myspace but for entirely different reasons.
Daniel
· 1 year ago
I read similar article also named Blog Archive Danah is confused by Facebook’s fans «, and it was completely different. Personally, I agree with you more, because this article makes a little bit more sense for me
All Comments
As the Facebook-Team focuses on a network based on real-life-contacts maybe their main priority isn't Scalability in those high, everestlike areas?
Before they put in place the limit one person got very popular and got to more than 100,000 friends.
On MySpace one guy has millions of friends, but that was designed into the service.
In my spare time, I'm working for fun on a Facebook app and I currently doubt that it would scale well with 5000 friends. :-( With this possibility in mind, there are some things that I could do with the interface to make it possible. I just want to point out that the problem is not in the scalability of the platform, but in the scalability of the apps being developed. If developers don't take into account that a Facebook member can have many hundreds of friends, it is doubtful it will scale well.
What I think is needed for the platform - and there are rumors they are working on it - is the possibility of defining lists of friends. For the application I have in mind, it wouldn't make sense to use it for up to 5000 friends. It would make sense to use it for a list of predefined friends (family, co-workers, influencers, etc.)
You cant really remove the wall, you can hide it from everyone. You cant let people post but not have the wall posts show up. It would be nice to be able to say "i just want these people to use the wall" or any application for that matter. Basically that or have a moderation system. When someone comes home drunk at 2am and writes something on your wall, its there, and if you are sleeping, you can't remove it until the next day. Also when someone tags you in a photo, you cant really remove it. Someone could put up a risque photo of you, tag it and its there for everyone to see. Not good...if you are trying to keep your profile more professional..
The Wall has become open email for many people, or IM between two people, but with public view. The Wall is a special application that you can't really remove.
Also, the news/mini feed. They started adding the "Top 5 in Blah" now, if you click on them they call them "All Fluff" stories, you cant change any setting to remove these. There are a few other story types you can't remove either. It seems some options they haven't implemented yet. They implement the functionality then later come back and implement settings, not good either , in my opinion.
And the best bit about Facebook? It's that it's completely pointless. ;) At least MySpace can be justified on grounds of personal branding and publicity. Facebook's login wall prevents even that.
I'm not the only one that compares Facebook '07 with AOL '97. But I think that's the wrong metaphor. Facebook is actually Coney Island '57.
In 1981 IBM PC and PC-DOS (AKA MS-DOS) were challenger brands. But by the time Mac showed up in 1984, MS-DOS was already dominant. Mac couldn't even beat DOS!
When Windows 3 was released in 1990. Windows steamrollered DOS. Mac held its (tiny patch of) ground.
Apple worked very hard to pull in developers... they were stymied more by eonomics (it was hard to get funded for the small Mac user population when the Windows target seemed so much fatter).
Make your case for open systems using supportable evidence. Not your private mythology
I've seen your angst about the Facebook friends limit. What if while you're waiting.. you created another (because there can be multiple of the same name) & then once they take that limit off, you could merge them? Just a suggestion - I realize it's not ideal.
in terms of comment 2: nobody has 5000 friends. it is impossible to have 100k friends.
People need to sit back and realise what the word "friend" really means, as opposed to some RSS addict on the other side of the world whom you will never meet but who has spent 5 seconds "adding" you as a "friend".
This is self-aggrandising on a worryingly huge level. Thankfully it means nothing to the real world.
Agree re AOL, blogged that point before...so who will build Mosaic '07?
This is why folks took exception when you placed content that was available only on FB a few weeks ago. There was a definite wall placed between you and your audience. I suspect your blog reaches far wider than the 5000 "friends" you have on FB.
I'm all for FB or MySpace or whatever as a place for fun, but the reality is that employers will continue to take a dim light on people who do ridiculous stuff and find it necessary to post about it on the public Internet.
I know that my employer has already rejected one prospective candidate who listed her MySpace on her resume (a MySpace that referenced her mildly illegal antics).
I did plenty of similarly stupid stuff in my youth, I'm just glad there isn't a instantly searchable, totally accessible, forever archived record of all that insanity floating around. Kids need the space to experiment, and they're always going to be doing things that they later chalk up as "youthful indiscretions". I'm just not sure that excuse will hold water with employers when they're choosing whether to offer you an internship or a job and your FB or archive.org or a google search of you shows lots of drunken ranting.
One way or another society is going to have to come to terms with having no privacy and the past being permanently available in all it's gory detail. What you did in your late teens should have nothing to do with your ability to function in your late 20s. And frankly if an employer is bothered by this you probably don't want to work for them. But then what about potential politicians and public sector workers? "I did not inhale". Oh yes, you did. And I found the Flickr photograph to prove it.
1. mass messaging: there is a middle point. You should be allowed to send a message to your community. The community should have the option of mass or not mass message. They should publish this info before you join.
3. Join a City network. I recommend to allow us to join or change before the 60 days.
5. if you install an App, you give the creator access to all of your profile data (no one reads those checkboxes anyhow). My recommendation to Facebook is to make three levels of data and to choose the type of data we like to share with anyone.
7. Is [the over-30] crowd sustainable? Is it worth it monetarily? Yes I am working is a application to give some professional value to it. I guess other people will do the same thing over time.
Mario Ruiz
www.oursheet.com
Nay, my friend. I'm not sure if you've friended any college students on Facebook and then perused their photos and comments but for a large portion of the student population in America, Facebook is a memory repository of things you did last night that you do not remember.
Employers will start throwing out college students' job applications when they see their Facebook profile on a google search; not the other way around.
As a former college student, I have to admit it rankles me a little bit that all these 30+ year olds are suddenly adoring Facebook as some divine tool for social change. For college students, it's a snapshot of what you support (Obama, your home state, bringing garlic mashed potatoes back to the cafeteria), a repository for pictures of your weekend (or weeknight) debauchery or trips with friends, and a quick, easy, and public way to stay in touch with your friends.
Try as all of you might, I don't think I'll ever take Facebook seriously as an influential service.
Though "we've all done it", a nice party photo of a half-dressed, obviously inebriated student lives in perpetuity in today's world.
The silver lining? Our talented young folks may think twice before posting those entertaining pictures.
For all of us, our personal lives lived in public places just isn't so private anymore. Thank goodness my college life days were pre-camera phones!
All that said, I like facebook. It's modular, and that makes it scalable (perhaps not as much as people would like, but better than many tools). It allows me to stay in contact with colleagues and friends who I see rarely, thanks to its new feed. Professionally, that keeps colleagues on my mind and me on theirs, even if a year goes between our meeting and our first collaboration. For friends, well, it stops people from drifting away.
I think the biggest problem is that there really isn't anything exactly like facebook. Like a lot of social media tools, you really have to just start using it to figure out what it is. Twitter is the same way. I could describe it to someone until I'm blue in the face, but it really doesn't sink in until you start using it.
When I first got on facebook, I would have loved a small -- well, tutorial may more involved than what I'm looking for, but some sort of introduction that gives new members a sense of what a network is, what a group is, how apps work, how privacy works, and a bit of social etiquette. (e.g., when do you message and when do you write on a wall, or maybe even what a wall is.) I think social etiquette may be the most important part. People are more likely to join a community if they feel comfortable in their interactions. If your engaged in other forms of social media, you'll figure out facebook. For those who aren't, it would be nice to have a helping hand.
Well actually, I met two entrepreneurs from Amsterdam who offer something that did just that — but I digress.
On the problem at hand, I beleive that Networks need to be reconsidered and though through.
About your own personal issues:
- with the limit on the number of friends, I'm not sure it makes sense to share private details to that many person, and not prefer to define a closer circle; if you do sincerly have an argument for not having less then that many invites to your birthday party, I assume Facebook will try to suit you; I just can't imagine reasonnable symetric relations on that scale;
- apps aren't perfect; but more importantly, there should be one for your kind: call it Fan, Star or Very Interactive Person, and make it suit your needs: an asymetric relation between a very vocal & open host, and his very numerous guests. People would subscribe either as member of a Rock-Star/Band/Guru, or as a Follower.
Any one around to do that?
If you do