Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Aung Min Min — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 02:52:01 -0000

Dear sir,

I'm Aung Min Min, cartoonist from Myanmar. I've been drawing cartoon since 1969. Comic, journals cartoon & magazine cartoon, caricature and also 2D animation for 8 yrs.
I do request you feed me back your advice. If I have a chance, I want to participate my cartoon your market. The attached is the sample of my cartoon. I shall send
again soon.

Best regards,
Aung Min Min

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Ed Beardwell — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:05:36 -0000

Apologies, it seems to be up there again. Maybe I'm misunderatanding the review process for postings...

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Ed Beardwell — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:04:24 -0000

Hello, my previous posting here seems to have been censored out. I didn't think there was anything too contentious there - just a little information to help inform this debate. Please could someone explain why I've been censored (private email is fine).

Ed Beardwell
CartoonStock Ltd

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Ed Beardwell — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:52:35 -0000

I just dropped in on this conversation rather belatedly, but thought it was worth mentioning that a site already exists that provides cartoons (humorous single panel cartoons, political cartoons and vintage cartoons), all of which can be licensed and downloaded instantly for display on blogs, social networking pages etc. It's called CartoonStock ( www.CartoonStock.com ) and has been around for nearly ten years now. This idea isn't particularly new!

We license any of our cartoons from around 14 US Dollars for these "social networking" uses... and people are willing to pay. Certainly more would pay if the fee was less, but as has already been observed here, cartoonists aren't willing to contribute their work for pitiful or no fees in the hope they'll make some money later and in the meantime devaluing their artform.

Ed Beardwell
CartoonStock Ltd

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Sarah — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 04:54:58 -0000

hi. your last blog asked about paying for comics? so im here to offer you a deal...i want a comic book made for my boyfriend, because hes crazy for comics, and his birthday is coming up soon, so if you were to make a comic book for me. that involved the two of us, or even just him i would appreciate it. and i will pay if you want. hard copy of the book is best, but a soft copy will be fine, if thats all you can do. email me back if possible.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Dawn Douglass — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:10:12 -0000

Alex, I had this programmed to accept animations. The list: comic strips, gag panels, editorial cartoons, news cartoons, comic book pages, caricatures and animations.

Frankly, I've been leaning towards taking the animation part out of it, partly because I don't like the interface they used, but also because it will spike banduse and I'm not sure animations are quite in keeping with what we're trying to do. I keep going back and forth about that.

I'd love to talk to you about it. Is this Portland OREGON? That's where I am. Please write to me:
dawn_douglass AT yahoo DOT com

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Dawn Douglass — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:00:19 -0000

DS, as soon as it's on the web, it can't be exclusive because it's too easy to copy.

But being FIRST with a cartoon is something we could probably do and are thinking about. Like maybe you could subscribe to an RSS for the categories you're interested in and if you grab it first you get a link to your post about it for a limited time. So everybody who sees the cartoon while it's on our website can click to you if they want to.

I think this is especially appropriate for editorial cartoons. Because like Shawn was saying, they were never meant to stand alone. Bloggers' text complement them and vice versa.

@Salubri -- well said. Thanks.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Alex Williams — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:57:25 -0000

I can't wait to talk about this at Platform, the international animation festival coming to Portland, June 25-30. The animator community is all freaked out about giving their work away for free. They get consumed in copyright issues. Hugh MacLeod is a good example of how it pays to get your work out there. I wonder, though, if there is a market for selling animation as much as there is for cartoons. Podcast Hotel will be at Platform, teaching folks about social media. I'll point to this example and will be looking for others to illustrate what animators can do to keep their work fresh in the eyes of their communities!

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

ds — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:49:24 -0000

Is there a place where you can easily select one or more cartoons, get some exclusivity for like one week or one month, and pay maybe $ 10 - 20 a month.
Double it and get some personalization?
And by exclusivity I mean it doesn't show up anywhere else on the web.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Shawn Levasseur — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:26:02 -0000

I do recognize the history of the format. And it does serve well to communicate how history was perceived in it's time (as I said, it communicates sentiment well). So editorial cartoons are a great "time capsule" for future historians.

But as a way of communicating ideas to the intended audience in the present time, it's far less useful. Most of the time the cartoons do little to inform or persuade, due to the limits of the format. The jokes work if you agree with the opinions being expressed, and rarely if you don't. Again, the single panel format puts limits on the humor, as strips can be more elaborate in setting up punchlines, as well as arguments.

It doesn't help that cartoons are lightning rods for criticism. A cartoon that misses its mark with its humor especially with serious issues, can attract much more angry responses than regular editorial pieces do.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

gapingvoid — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:49:40 -0000

Actually, editorial cartoons have a long and illustrious history in England- Hogarth, Gillray, Cruikshank, Tenniel, Low and Giles spring immediately to mind.

The good news is, the standard of UK editorial cartoons today is generally very high [Steve Bell is probably the most famous one]. The bad news is, the overall market can only support a tiny handful of them.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Shawn Levasseur — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:36:10 -0000

More power to 'em for trying out something new. But the model that seems to be amongst the better ones working today (for now, at any rate) is to offer up free web comics, to entice readers to buy the print collections.

Then that's done more with sequential comics (panel to panel storytelling), rather than the single panel format of editorial cartoons. The aforementioned "stock photo" style of licensing out cartoons sounds like a good idea.

I really don't think very highly of the editorial cartoon myself. They work best as illustrations to accompany a text piece. All to often editorial cartoons are merely a single panel of snark. Without any supporting arguement.

That's the problem with the single panel format. It expresses a sentiment well enough, but nothing deeper. Contrast that with Doonesbury and Day by Day, editorial comic strips that are frequently snarky, yet make an argument to back it up, (not always, but that's more about the creator's choice than the limits of the format)

My general dislike of the editorial cartoon is also aided by the fact that too many of the working editorial cartoonists are crappy artists, who think that scribbling is a "style".

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

gapingvoid — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:32:16 -0000

"'I just want to draw.' The cartoons themselves are the product. Many don’t have the time to do anything else."

All three are self-imposed limitations. Which VC's are generally unsympathetic towards...

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Salubri — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:19:12 -0000

I think some people are missing the point here:
1) The cartoonist is still free to show his cartoons Free Of Charge...
2) People pay to dispaly the cartoonists work on their site / blog... Now unless the cartoonist is already distributing his/her work under creative commons or some other such license people DO NOT normally have the right to use his/her work in any way (credited or not) as cartoons ARE copyright material. This would be a huge advantage and I for one would certainly pay for it (sharp eyed observers may have noticed me stealing from one comic - I do not make a habit of this and I really should rejig the post so there is a link to the original image and the image is not displayed...) I see lots of strips online that would be relevant and / or pertinent to my posts. If there was some centralised way I could have a subscription to post that would be wonderful.
3) Dome comics (Dilbert) already allow reuse on a charged basis http://www.dilbert.com/comi... and obviously make good money from doing so.

Dawn - I personally think you should start by getting as many free online comic strip authors as you can to buy in to this service (They will only be gaining - not losing anything). Feature their strips on your site (and link them obviously) in a "daily strip aggregator" making yourself the first subscriber to your own service.

This will attract users (and possibly other comic authors) allowiwng you to start generating revenue from advertising. Grow organically from there (or seek further VC when you have proven your concept).

The only problem with doing this is the initial outlay of subscribing to enough artists to make your comic aggregator really attractive to comic readers (which should be less than the capital you would originally have been seeking)

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Dawn Douglass — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:17:06 -0000

Hugh, this isn't micropayments, which is a system whereby you can't read the work until you pay a small amount for it. As I said, all our work can be read for free. Like Jay said above, this isn't about reading a bunch of comics, it's about collecting favorite comics for specific use.

Your cartoons are literally your business cards, just as Famous Amos's cookies were his, so of course you give them away for free. I've worked with cartoonists for 12 years, and I can tell you with all certainly that for most cartoonists "I just want to draw." The cartoons themselves are the product. Many don't have the time to do anything else. What else could Bill Amend do when he's spending 8-10 hours a day drawing?

Thinking this shouldn't be so, that everybody should be like you and use their cartoons as business cards to their REAL product or service, really is unfair. Different artists create cartoons at different rates in different amounts (your gag panels are conducive to be used over and over and over again as you brilliantly do, but people who have comic strips can't do that) and they have different skills and interests. Your talent and your love is being a hawker. What are artists who don't have that skill or desire or extra time to devote supposed to do?

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Tom Q — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:59:05 -0000

Scoble

Rob Edward's Drawn and Quartered http://www.drawnandquartere... has been doing the satirical political comic thing for several years. He could probably tell you whether there is a business in this sort of thing.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

gapingvoid — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:02:46 -0000

I make a LOT more money giving the cartoons away from free than I ever would from charging.

Micropayments simply do not work, and here's why: http://shirky.com/writings/...

That battle was fought and won at least five years ago.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Frank Roche — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 07:33:41 -0000

I'd pay something on the order of $25/yr (a Flickr subscription) to $10/month (a cheap hosting fee price) for a range of cartoons. The artist still hold the copyright, just let me use their work for incidental posts. Good thought, Robert.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Krishna Sadasivam — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:33:17 -0000

The most successful webcartoonists of the bunch make their living off of merchandise and advertising on their site. The comics are always free. Charging for comics only makes sense if you are offering something extra in a book format that is not available on the web.

Full disclosure: I am a webcartoonist. I don't make a living off my site (not even close) - but I do bring enough revenue to offset groceries, purchase hardware / software etc. by virtue of the services I offer through my website.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Dawn Douglass — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 04:46:54 -0000

Which one is charity, Christopher: having your hand out to be given free stuff or having your hand out to be paid for work? I agree with you about advertising not being omnipotent, like many seem to think it is.

@Nima - There is no "working" web comic industry. Even topnotch cartoonists who are "web syndicated" by major companies typically make less that $100 a month. Yes, there is a very small handful of people making a living via web cartoons, but that's the rare exception, and is pretty much limited to one type of comic and one demographic.

@Leddo - Interesting! Maybe someday. Thanks for the thoughts.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Christopher Coulter — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:18:27 -0000

reasonable people should be willing, even eager, to financially support independent media

Rolling my eyes, going blind, from all the bubble economics and artistic arrogance. Independent media has to swim in the same waters, has to have the same quality-level and fight for the same ratings as everyone else. What you are asking for is pure charity. Go hit up some rich Bleeding Heart, that wants to create a Foundation of sorts, and cry your 'starving-cartoonist' heart out there. Go and help make the world safe for your saving-grace 'artistic-communal socialized democracy'.

Advertising is the supposed cure-all for start-ups bad at math -- which includes Microsoft, paying $6 billion, to spyware-like target people with more Advertising. And advertising, like any drug, will need more and more to get the same effect, eventually it kills the host. The waters are rising so high, expectations will never be met, so new forms of fraud slash click-frauding and Enron-like economics are going to dot the Advertising landscape as never before. So many house of cards out there, digesting the Google advertising gospel, crash city.

Gonna be fun to watch, shorting trigger-fingers ready on fire...

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Nima — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:10:26 -0000

With all due respect, this is ridiculous.

Many webcomics, like the immensely popular Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, encourage people to post their comics to their MySpace or Facebook pages. That in turn draws traffic to their site, which means more exposure, more readership, more ad revenue, and more merchandise sales.

The key to comics isn't to monetize each individual comic strip, it's to monetize the comic as a whole. Each strip in effect is advertising for the comic. That's the model webcomics figured out a long time ago, and it's working.

I also reject the entire notion that comics are dying and in dire need of saving. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The old conventional method of publishing is dying, and has been for a long time, but people adapted, and adapted well a long time ago. Scott Kurtz, of PvP fame, a long time ago established an offer to let any newspaper run his comic for free, so long as they displayed the address back to his site. This, of course, ticked off the estalished publication comics, as discussed by Penny Arcade here

I think it's great to find new and innovative ways to help artists and specifically comics make a living from what they love, but I think this is greatly counter-productive. If you want to see someone who's actually doing good, check out Project Wonderful, the time based auction advertising system devised by Ryan North of Dinosaur Comics.

Finally, Robert, I'd like to point out that Dawn is not the only one who's made a comic inspired by you, though I readily concede that her comics are much more high brow. ;)

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Irene — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:08:02 -0000

I don't mind cartoons on blog. Some of them are even more funnier than real pictures. Also, are a lot more appealing over real pictures.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

Guest — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:43:46 -0000

Robert,

I think the VC's comments on Zooomr are interesting. I'm interested in Zooomr and Smugmug's experiments with photographer-dictated pricing allowing non-pro photographers to get into stock without going as low as istockphoto and its brethren.

I'm a fan of Dan Heller's blog (http://danheller.blogspot.c..., where he has been putting forth some great analysis and predictions about the future of the photography business--predicting the commoditization of photos. I'd be interested in what your thoughts are on this...and if you could get him on the show or a photowalk, that would be sweet.

Re: Comics, is there any way to make a business here?

John — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:43:01 -0000

There's also userfriendly.org - he's making a living from it.