Ditto. This week has been a week of sun spots, attitudes, drama, poor health... It is Saturday, isn't it? Hopefully that puts an end to this week in only a few hours.
Oh, wait, you were talking about Windows and Vista. My bad... ;) I guess it's the stiff drink part that caught my attention.
So, end the confusion by either getting Brian Valentine or the Vista Release Manager on video to ask them the pointed questions. You can call all the "friends" you want, but until we hear it from them, and not filtered through you, this stuff will continue.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Dmad: it's on the Xbox team blog. I quoted the vice president of Waggener Edstrom. That's good enough for now. Your protestations don't mean a thing. You aren't even willing to tell us who you are. So why, again, should I listen to someone who is probably working for a competitor?
Robert W. Anderson
· 3 years ago
The 60% thing is just patently ridiculous.
Durr
· 3 years ago
"Even the evidence denies this story. At Mix06 last week we had Media Center PCs for people to use, running, gasp, Windows Vista. An entire keynote (damn cool demos too) ran on Windows Vista and it didn’t crash the entire time. That doesn’t sound like something that needs a 60% rewrite. Or something that isn’t on schedule to ship."
That's all fine and good, but it still doesn't change the fact that Vista is getting delayed for the millionth time and, while demo machines are cool and all, no one really cares until they have the product in front of them.
Mike
· 3 years ago
Scoble, I liked your blog for long time. Your blog was very objective (together with your Channel 9 videos) for someone working for Microsoft.
You do ask provocative questions from time to time, but smart people could sense self-censorship was always present. Anyway... all that was better than reading PRs or marketing collateral....
But your reaction to story about Vista code rewriting, which for sure is not true, shows where your heart is really about.. And what kind truth you are defending. Your company lied about much bigger stuff, much bigger. For years...from top management to the whole world. Shame on you. You deserve this..
I know MS is happy to have Vista finally working without crashing when running something simple for couple of hours. Wow...this is 2006, Microsoft is biggest SW maker in world, Vista is more than 5 years in development and whole world should be happy because you guys finally did beta which does not crash? Get real...
You are not on the mission to go to the Moon for the first time, so whole country (or world) is living your mission accomplishments, and every milestone is big event for all of us... We have alternative already on the market, it does not do not crash, and have everything Vista will have (maybe), once it is released...
Get your stuff together...finish that product on date as you have promised, and we will then judge what MS can produce in 5+ years. Did you rewrite 60% of code in 9 months or in two weeks, or you did not rewrite anything - who cares. Get us working product ASAP.
So please...try to stay "objective" as you did before, and your blog and Channel 9 will be on my day-to-day reading list...
Sincerely, Mike
btw. I read on IE blog about some disturbing features of brand new IE. For example someone asked "will IE have feature "Open links in Tabs", IE dev team answered something like this "No, but this is cool feature, we like your feedback". Com'n guys, this can be added in 1 day. Didn't you see this features in Firefox a year ago? Or in Safari? Do you have single developer who can do something without asking Bill first? I hope Bill will schedule this feature for IE 8 :)
That kind of attitude toward users shows perfectly clear that you still think users are stupid and will believe yours feature set is the best they can get? We have internet Scoble, we can see what other guys are offering to us for free, too.
Brett Nordquist
· 3 years ago
I don't care how often Vista is delayed or how much (or how little) code is rewritten, if any. Take all the time you want. Just deliver a solid product when you do launch. XP Pro works for me now for the most part. It has it's quirks but nothing that makes me want to switch to anything else.
Get it right out of the gate is more important to me than launching early with major issues and having to wait until SP1 is released months later.
John Dowdell
· 3 years ago
"... there is no way that 60% of Windows Vista is going to be rewritten between now and November. That’s just ridiculous on its face."
Well, I don't know.... Maybe he means it will be changed to "Windows Pasta"... no, that's only a 40% rewrite, I guess you're right.... ;-)
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert...you really need to correct your misstatement about what Scott Byer said before you get all angry about other people's misstatements. Cast out the beam in thine own eye, etc.
Alfredo Octavio
· 3 years ago
You really count surviving one demo without crashing a proof that a rewrite is not needed? Way to go for high standards! :-) There is only one way to quench all these criticisms... Ship a good product on time. I've stop thinking Microsoft can do that. Sold all my stock. It is time to stop talking about the future and deliver...
Wild Bill
· 3 years ago
But Scoble - no-one believes Microsoft anymore.
Are you surprised ?
---* Bill
Oscar
· 3 years ago
This 60% stuff seems ridiculous, but Microsoft has really brought this on itself. There is still no official RTM date and it's not clear from the original press release how strongly Microsoft is committed to the January launch. Could we see another delay announced in a couple months because of "quality" and "security" concerns? If Microsoft officially (not through blogs!) made very clear, unambiguous statements about when their most important product would launch, none of this would be an issue.
Given the importance of Vista to Microsoft's future, it's time for Ballmer to step up, reassure everyone, and make crystal clear what is really going on. If he does, this Smarthouse kind of nonsense goes away, poof. If he doesn't, the company deserves all the flak it gets for breaking it's commitment to a 2006 launch and then creating this information vacuum. This is a job for Steve Ballmer, not Robert Scoble. This is the kind of situation where senior leadership shows if it is adding value or not. Sadly, so far, it's not.
markl
· 3 years ago
Robert,
This is complete nonsense on the 60% thing. I have worked on ALL releases of Windows shipped by Microsoft. I don't work there any more, and therefore have no one should worry about me speaking "marketing-speak like you". Shoot, Microsoft officially, and publicly hates my employeer (and I am assuming me).
There is not an ounce of truth to the 60% number.
Sure, over the course of development, 60% of the files may have been touched, a large number of functions may have had slight changes or new system wide defense mechnisms included, but give me a break. Rewrite means throw it out and write it again. My guess is that 60% of the code in Windows was written long ago and no one wants to touch it because of the tar-baby effect (If you touch it last, you now own it and all its bugs).
Windows is filled with code like:
for(i=0; i
markl
· 3 years ago
Robert, Switch to blogger. Your blogger software ate half my comments. Up to you to repair it now, assuming you got the second half of my post. Blogger at least has preview. I used < in my comment but didn't entity encode...
Bob
· 3 years ago
This is a job for Steve Ballmer, not Robert Scoble. This is the kind of situation where senior leadership shows if it is adding value or not. Sadly, so far, it’s not.
Agree 100%. A few weeks ago, we had Gates/Ballmer in our face just about daily telling the world how everything was on track. Now that the train has come off the rails, they trot out Allchin to do a Baghdad Bob-esque fantasy show of bravado in the face of total failure and both Gates/Ballmer are suddenly MIA. Kudos again to Robert for dealing with this but it's ridiculous that it's falling largely on him to do so. Steve/Bill, if you can't lead then resign. Frankly, neither one of you has distinguished yourselves this entire decade.
Chris
· 3 years ago
What I find amazing is all the developer bloggers out there that picked up this story and ran with it... I mean come on guys 60% of an OS to be re-written in 11 months umm, yeah that sounds likely, not!
Shame on anyone who ran this as a headline or continued it's propogation; you should all know better and if you don't well I think maybe you should re-examine your career choices.
Dmad
· 3 years ago
Scoble, I'm not suggesting to get Valentine on camera to address the 60% story from some unqualified hack on a irrelvant web site. In fact, I'm baffled you even continue to acknowledge it, or did so in the first place. But the bigger issue that needs to be addressed is the continued Vista delay. For that reason it would be good to hear from someone that is accountable for its shipping, not the head of MS's PR agency. Do you REALLY believe that is a credible source for this community? A PR statement may be good enough for you, but I think a larger majority would prefer to hear from someone on the front line.
anon
· 3 years ago
it’s on the Xbox team blog. I quoted the vice president of Waggener Edstrom. That’s good enough for now. Your protestations don’t mean a thing. You aren’t even willing to tell us who you are. So why, again, should I listen to someone who is probably working for a competitor?
Cluetrain manifesto #53: There are two conversations going on. One inside the company. One with the market.
I'll trust the conversation in the market over self-interested posturing from your workplace colleagues.
Here's another theory. Maybe 40% of Vista components are closed for submissions, and 60% are still open for fixes. When I was working on OS X we had that kind of progressive lockdown of OS components. OTOH, we did ship a version about once a year, which made it easier for teams to accept a lockdown, and not try to squeeze in 'one more feature' in the guise of a bugfix.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Anon: that's bullshit. Here's what Dave Winer says: "Anyone who believes that it's conceivable is someone who hasn't got the most basic clue about how software development works."
And Mark Lucovsky is above. They are both real software engineers who've earned their stripes in this industry (and who, like Mark says above, have no love lost for Microsoft). They both say that the 60% thing is bull.
You, sir (if you are a sir) are a troll and an anonymous one at that. You don't control the industry conversation. I'll go with Dave and Mark until you identify yourself.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Kevin: we're in feature complete. So, if an engineer sneaks a feature in at this point he/she better have executive level signoff and a darn good reason.
jarod
· 3 years ago
Naturally, no one with a brain thought that the 60% rewrite thing was true. However, everyone with a heart *wanted* it to be true. They wanted it to be true because Microsoft is a lumbering colossus which is a convicted monopolist on two continents. It's a company which sees other, successful companies, and says, "Where can I imitate them today?".
Check out the latest quote from Steve Ballmer:
"Well, I think there are experts who claim Linux violates our intellectual property. I’m not going to comment. But to the degree that that’s the case, of course we owe it to our shareholders to have a strategy. And when there is something interesting to say, you’ll be the first to hear it."
If reading that makes you think that Microsoft is a company who thinks that suing people for using its primary competitor is a good idea, then you'll understand why people are willing to, no, *want* to believe that Microsoft has to rewrite 60% of its source code.
Everybody want to see the school bully fall flat on his face.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Jarod: oh, so, you are advocating breaking the law and stealing intellectual property? Got it.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Bug: >Your company lied about much bigger stuff, much bigger. For years…from top management to the whole world. Shame on you. You deserve this..
So, two wrongs make a right? Got it. Your ethical system isn't all that hot. Sorry, think about what you just said.
J. Random Poster
· 3 years ago
"Windows Vista has new UI code, a rewritten audio stack, a rewritten networking stack, dramatically new code in Windows Media Center and the Tablet PC and speech recognition and browser pieces. "
Six years late, and that's all you have to show for it?
Yep, it's SP4. That's all.
Robert Scoble
· 3 years ago
Dmad: >For that reason it would be good to hear from someone that is accountable for its shipping, not the head of MS’s PR agency.
The Xbox team has spoken on this issue. Tons of employees who work on the guts of Windows have spoken. And, Charlie Owen of the Media Center team has spoken.
I send you back to Dave Winer who has a lot more authority in this matter than an anonymous jerk like you do.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
J. Random: >Yep, it’s SP4. That’s all.
I really am getting tired of fighting with anonymous jerks.
A service pack doesn't come with a new UI. It doesn't come with a new audio stack. It doesn't come with completely recompiled code. With a new security model. With kernel changes. With a new networking stack.
It's becoming pretty clear that anonymity here is just bringing a bunch of jerks. Maybe I should turn on comment moderation.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
MarkL: sorry about Wordpress.com cutting your comment. I don't have the rest of it. Thank you very much for the support.
Hey, if we hate Google so much, why do so many Microsoft employees use it? (When I was at Google I took a look at the monitor that shows searches done around the world and Microsoft was doing more searches than the entire continent of Africa).
Chris
· 3 years ago
From a tech point of view I find this conversation so very sad...
Whether you like Microsoft or not (for the record I mostly do and have some brilliant friends working there), whether you think they have made mistakes or not (they have) COME ON! propagating a story that talks abou a 60% rewrite of an OS is ludicrous!!!
anon
· 3 years ago
Here’s what Dave Winer says: “Anyone who believes that it’s conceivable is someone who hasn’t got the most basic clue about how software development works.”
Robert, Dave might be your friend but he's not saying that Windows Vista doesn't require a 60% rewrite. He's saying there's no way Microsoft could accomplish a 60% rewrite in the 8 months before it's scheduled to ship. I have no argument with that.
Dmad
· 3 years ago
31. You are still missing the point. Who cares if Xbox devs are coming over or not? Who cares if low level Windows employess have spoken? Again, the issue is not the innacurate, made up 60% code rewrite story that you want to keep alive. This issue is yet ANOTHER delay in the release of Vista. There is no clear discussion of what is causing the continued delays, other than "MS will ship when it is ready" Great! They always say that. And, well, even when the do ship many will wait until SP1 (at least businesses) to deploy it because... most know MS pretty much always has a crappy V1 release.
So, to quell the continued rumors and speculation about what is causing the continued delays, it would be great to get Brian Valentine on record to have a "naked conversation" about what is really going on over there. Now, if you don't have enough influence to pull that off, or if you ring up Brian he has no idea who you are, well I certainly understand. It was just a suggestion.
anon
· 3 years ago
BTW, Robert, didn't Mark Lucovsky leave your convicted monopolist felon employer for Google.
Yes he did. Right about the time Allchin told Gates Longhorn "was not going to work" and Windows needed a complete rewrite.
Dmad: >This issue is yet ANOTHER delay in the release of Vista.
No, that's not the issue of this thread. It might be another thread's issue, but that's not what we keep talking about here. If you wanna talk about that and switch the topic, come on over to Channel 9.
>There is no clear discussion of what is causing the continued delays
Again, it's pretty clear that there isn't one thing that's causing the delays. Want one? My sound card's driver doesn't work in Windows Vista. Who is responsible for fixing that? Can Vista be released until it is? No. It's a popular sound card.
Finally, I'm not going to listen to you. You are an anonymous troll who keeps trying to switch the topic of conversation here. Have a good weekend.
Anon: yes, and that makes his words here even more interesting.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Blog.jaredwsmith.com: Windows Vista is scheduled to be released to manufacturing in November (fingers crossed) so we'll have gold copies before Christmas so you should be able to build a system before Christmas. MSDN subscribers usually get OS releases within hours of them being finished and don't need to wait for the retail release.
anon
· 3 years ago
I think the reason for your aggressive denial about the 60% code rewrite (even after the Windows management shakeup and announcement of Vista's delay) has nothing to do with the amount of code Vista needs redone. You wouldn't have any credible information to refute that anyway, especially if you're dependent on low-level Microsoft employees and its PR firms to make statements to the contrary. At this point, Microsoft, the company, has to do everything to maintain the illusion that "everything is on track" so that OEMs don't begin looking at alternatives to Windows in order to jumpstart their sales.
I notice that Windows and Office sales grew half as fast as the general PC market last year. If that's not marketshare loss, what is it?
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Duncan: I'm snarky alright. I'm tired of anonymous jerks.
Anon: that's just so much bull. But, glad you're under the influence of better stuff than I am at the moment. Is this the kind of thinking that passes for clarity of thought at our competitors? Yeah, go in and mouth off in Scoble's blog anonymously. When did this turn into Slashdot? Heheh. Geesh.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
> if you’re dependent on low-level Microsoft employees.
You might check the kinds of people I have access to. It isn't just low-level employees. Go look at the kinds of people I've interviewed for Channel 9. And go and read Charlie Owen. He works in the Media Center team and knows EVERYONE. Or, go and read Mark Lucovsky. He works at Google. Or go and ask Dave Winer. He has done more in his career than you'll ever even attempt. Or ask the Xbox team. Or ask Sean Alexander, he's worked in Windows for years. Or, or, or.
But, who are you? An anonymous jerk who is so cowardly that you won't even sign your own name and start a blog where we can come and make fun of you.
Kingsley
· 3 years ago
Have one for me. And good luck with the "60% rewrite." :)
anon
· 3 years ago
glad you’re under the influence of better stuff than I am at the moment. Is this the kind of thinking that passes for clarity of thought at our competitors?
Robert, I'm not under the influence of anything right now. Maybe you should re-read my post later.
But, who are you?
Somebody who'll never attempt as much in my career as Dave Winer accomplished in his, I guess.
An anonymous jerk who is so cowardly that you won't even sign your own name and start a blog where we can come and make fun of you.
Why should I start my own blog? You seem to be trying to do just as good a job making fun of me here.
Going public with my name is just going to make me more vulnerable to personal attacks from Microsoft's goon squad, kind of like you softies do to competitors.
I read Charlie Owen's post. He didn't say the rewrite was "poppycock", he said the story was "poppycock". Nobody from Microsoft has specifically refuted a 60% rewrite - for all I know, it's entirely feasible Owen's code is 100% done, a 60% rewrite is still necessary, and nobody refutes it can't be done in 8 months.
Nonetheless, I noticed in typical Microsoft fashion Owens could not resist taking a stab at competitor's product on his own blog: Apple iTunes. First it was Jim Allchin saying the iPod nano had a "moisture problem" (never reported by anyone else), now Owen tells us about how iTunes "torques even [his] most stable Windows XP build"?
What an ethical organization you work for. Developers, developers, developers and Windows ecosystem rah rah rah, but heaven forbid that Windows ecosystem includes competitor's products because that "torques" even stable versions of Windows.
Where can I get a copy of this mythical stable version of Windows? Preferably one that doesn't "torque" under iTunes, too, as I am rather fond of that program.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
>Robert, I’m not under the influence of anything right now.
TRANSLATION: I have absolutely no chemical excuse for being a jerk. You're just seeing my true personality come through.
>Going public with my name is just going to make me more vulnerable to personal attacks from Microsoft’s goon squad, kind of like you softies do to competitors.
TRANSLATION: If you knew the position I hold, and the company I work for, you'd break out in laughter.
TRANSLATION #2: I know that what I'm writing here is complete BS, so I wouldn't dare put my name to it and take the ridicule.
> Nobody from Microsoft has specifically refuted a 60% rewrite
TRANSLATION: Scoble doesn't really work for Microsoft.
Hey, anonymous jerk, I VERY SPECIFICALLY refuted it.
>Where can I get a copy of this mythical stable version of Windows?
I add nice non-anonymous bloggers to the beta. Since you're none of the above, I guess you'll have to wait until January 2007.
Christopher Coulter
· 3 years ago
Wow, that was a horrible defense. Shrill and mean. You are better in person, than on blog.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Christopher: too bad. It's my blog. Don't like it? Start your own. I'm getting very close to turning off comments, or moderating them at least. The amount of BS here is approaching Slashdot levels. I'm not going to put up with that. Period.
Simon Brocklehurst
· 3 years ago
I genuinely don't understand all this upset. Why does it matter how many lines of code have to be re-written (or still need to be written) to ship Windows Vista?
Surely the point is that Microsoft has announced that the product is delayed. Surely that means there must be *some* problem with the Vista project; even if the problem resides solely in project management. If there wasn't a problem, it would be shipping according the previously announced timelines.
This is a pain for customers who are looking forward to buying the new product. However, the truth is - when the product is an OS (or includes an OS), it's better to ship a high-quality product late than ship a low-quality product on-time. I don't see that Microsoft had any choice but to delay the product launch; just as Sony has had no choice but to delay the launch of the PS3.
cdb
· 3 years ago
This is all very amusing, in a sick, car crash kinda way. Maybe that's just my sense of humour (yes, I'm a Brit).
I can't see there being a 60% re-write or even, as the original article that spawned this actually said, 60% of the code needing some kind of change. That's probably not physically possible without seriously compromising the stability of the system.
I can see a situation where a very serious and easily exploitable security concern prompts an extensive review of a large proportion of the system. That would not surprise me. If the exploit affects code that is fundamental to the security model for the whole system, I could see that large proportion reaching a 60% regression.
The original reason for the delay was given as security.
Sounds like a reasonable explanation without requiring a "60% re-write".
A lot of conclusions jumped to there, and I'm sure that this is nowhere near the actual reason(s). Rather than just bashing and believing you're right, put some thought into why this may be happening and let's hear why (that's to the commenters, not to the original blog poster).
CDB
Vivek
· 3 years ago
It is surprising to see such personal attacks on an individual on an issue which frankly is trivial at best. Surely it seems to me that a lot of lives already depend on Vista - can "anon" and the other naysayers please elucidate as to what part of your professional/personal lives is at stake because of this delay?
No matter what anyone says, you will hear only what you want to hear - so be it. If this is really such a big deal to some of you then you always have the right of choice dont you? Exercise it.
Even better - Get a life.
rajesh
· 3 years ago
Robert - After decades of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about competitors, its a little amusing watching your company flail about helplessly - and by actions of their own doing. I think its called karma!
Andy Merrett
· 3 years ago
"I'm tired of anonymous jerks"
So don't allow anonymous posting. It's very simple.
"getting very close to turning off comments"
Why don't you then? Stop moaning about it - either deal with the trolls like everyone else has to, or give up.
alan jones
· 3 years ago
Robert, Smarthome is a tiny little minnow of a magazine website! If you'd asked someone familiar with it before demanding Richards fire... err... himself, they would have told you to ignore the story. Instead you've driven his traffic thru the roof.
I'm the last person who should try to teach anybody about PR after my own smaller but still nasty run-in with the blogosphere.
But even I would tell you not to threaten to turn off your comments on your blog - that just creates a bigger story and makes it run for another week. You won't shut the story down, but you might become the subject of a feature article in WIRED, and you don't want that.
Just ignore any comment that doesn't merit an answer, please don't denigrate or demean people, or shut us all out entirely. We can see some of these people are idiots for ourselves, we don't need you to point it out. Doing that for us makes you seem reactionary, rude and willing to try anything to win an argument.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
alan: good advice. It's not about winning an argument. It's about being attacked by people who you don't know where they are coming from (and, yes, I suspect that they are working for competitors).
Regarding Smarthome. Yeah, that's the danger of answering real concerns, but it was at the top of Memeorandum before I posted about it and the crap he spewed was being spread by other bloggers so I had to answer the claims. Worrying that I'll help a jerk out by posting about them isn't something I can take into account when the damage is spreading.
>So don’t allow anonymous posting. It’s very simple.
Yeah, right. There's no way to do that.
There is a hierarchy of who we should be listening to, though. At the very bottom are those who are anonymous. Why? Cause if you won't sign your name (in a verifyable way) to what you write you simply are not worth listening to.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert, you ever going to correct your wrong statement about Adobe and Universal Binaries?
Because you know, for you to get so angry about people's misstatements about Microsoft when you refuse to correct your own misstatements about Adobe is you know, kind of hypocritical.
And with you being so concerned with the truth and accuracy, I'm sure you wouldn't want to be guilty of that which you are actively fighting.
John: first of all, I don't read it the way you do. Second of all, I link to his post so my readers can get the Adobe guy's story. To compare what I wrote (which was possibly unclear writing) to what this "60% guy" wrote is just sheer lunacy.
But, whatever, I just updated the post so that it's very clear now what I meant.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert, accurate and correct are just that. Someone else being inaccurate and incorrect does not make you doing it okay. Secondly, he never, ever, ever said Adobe can't release Intel versions of its Mac applications, which was what your original link said.
He explained why they won't be updating the current versions to be universal binaries, and will instead make the next versions universal. The way you wrote it was incorrect, and inaccurate. Period. I'm glad you corrected it, but for you to get so friggin' mad about people being inaccurate and incorrect when you were doing the same thing was dumb, and you know it.
Just because Andrew's never found a fact he couldn't dodge doesn't make it okay when you're incorrect.
The fact you are trying to justify it now instead of just saying "Oh crap, I screwed up. Here's the correct way of describing that post, sorry about that", is a sure sign that you've been doing Microsoft PR for too long. "Even though I was wrong, I'll never admit it, even when it is clearly apparent and obvious".
If you want to rail about this kind of crap then SET THE EXAMPLE.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
John: whatever. I sure wish you'd use this moral outrage against that guy in Australia. Or, maybe, against Andrew Orlowski.
Unlike those two guys I actually linked so that my readers could get the whole story. The link corrected anything stupid I wrote. Sorry you don't get that difference.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Robert, the difference is you listen. Andrew never has, never will. I don't read his crap, because it's all Dvorkian/Enderleist traffic generating crap, and he's not a particularly good writer.
Last week, Matt Deatherage made a bet on the Macjournals Subscriber list that certain people would report this as wrong, solely because it would generate hits. Nice to see that Andrew doesn't disappoint.
You will, after a bit of effort, admit error, and even correct it. You'll kvetch about it, but you'll do it. That puts you far above Andrew and his ilk. You'll note that I link to you on my site, and not the Reg. (Although I really do have to fix that link location...oy) I don't agree with most of what you say about things, and you have an amazing talent for speed-induced hoofinmouth, but you do try to be as correct as your flying fingers will allow you.
If we can just get you to start proof-reading better, then a large chunk of the comment traffic would go away.
The entire 60% issue is silly anyway, because it can be both true and untrue depending on how you count. If you only count new code, then it's so stupid as to be humorous. But if you count lines of code that will be touched in the process of bug hunting, and adding in things like WPF/E (That would kind of make it not feature - complete nor in full lockdown, when they're talking about adding that support in Q3 2006, which is where some of the problem is coming from), then I will bet you a dollar that you could show 60% of the code has been changed.
People are getting pissy about a number with absolutely zero context, but that's what people do in this country. They jump on facts without context.
But seriously, if I ranked you with Orlowski, I'd just post an occasional link to stuff you write calling you a complete jackass, and you sure as heck wouldn't be on my site as a permanent link. Besides, you made CARs! That shows you have FAR more cred than Orlowski! Even Dori agreed, you're like, officially famous now. Only the Mac Glitterati make CARs
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Thanks John, for all of our disagreements, at least I know where you are coming from and who you are. Makes you 1000x more valuable/credible/interesting than the anonymous commenters. Not to mention that someday I can buy you a beer at Macworld and have a laugh.
Tom Socket
· 3 years ago
Much ado about nothing. That Smarthome web site often posts outdated info. Just last week they posted a review of the "new G5 iMac" for god's sake. How long have the Intel ones been out now?
Keith
· 3 years ago
While I can honeslty say that the idea of Vista used to makes me tingle back in 2002...from what and changed in the last 6yrs I am honeslty not impressed with the end result. If this had been rlease is say 2005 or late 04 I would be amazed. I realize that a lot of hard work went into making vista, and I'm not trying to say that it was shoty work, just that I honeslty expected more from Microsoft.
From 2000 to XP it was a interface upgrade, some security fixes/memory management and .zip handeling in 2yrs, that wasnt to bad, as they wernt really needed, but the UI and .zip addition was a nice addition. But here we ar in 2006, XP is the standard, but 2000 will still do the job very well, and Vista almost seems like an upgrade that really offers nothing to the majority of users. MS touts security and stability in every new release, that nothing new, but Honeslty I feel like something is just lacking in Vista, but I'm not sure what. I just honeslty expected well, better.
I will most likely upgrade simply for teh speed and memory managemnt changes, but I sadly have found myself looking into OSX and linux as possible alternatives. I;m not sure if I simply expected to much in 6ys, or if its all the delays, and 5yrs of XP have just worn me out.
Either way, greetings from Neowin.
bangbang023
· 3 years ago
Thanks for the neowin.net mention. We definitely appreciate it.
John C. Welch
· 3 years ago
Well, if you'd have shown up at Macworld earlier this year, that beer would have been on me, and I could have shown you how a conference can be run well, and have value, even in the glorious "Web 2.0" world ;-)
But hey, you said free beer, so woohoo!
Sean Kaye
· 3 years ago
Your reference to "in Australia" and your partners is pretty much pathetic, Robert. First off, Microsoft lives and dies by its partners... or so you keep telling everyone until you cannibalise another one of their markets through illegal bundling tactics.
Secondly, just because a story breaks out of Australia, you needn't make it sound as though somehow the very location makes it dubious. Last time I checked your company took a billion dollars a year out of Australia, perhaps instead of scoffing, you should just say thank you.
I liked you better when you were fresh to Microsoft, now you're probably doing them more harm than good. The jounalist in question got a story, he quoted directly a source that as the marketing manager for a partner could legitimately know that type of information. We're also talking about an award winning journalist who broke one of the biggest corruption cases in Australia's history (I know you don't think much of us, but hey). So, perhaps rather than dismiss him so out of hand, perhaps the blogging mouthpiece of Microsoft should check the facts and find out the truth. If your own people come back with "No Comment" or "We don't discuss product development details" then perhaps a simple apology to the journalist in question would suffice.
scobleizer
· 3 years ago
Sean: you're right. I was over the top. For the record, Raymond of Acer called me tonight. Let's just say that what he told the "journalist" wasn't reported the way he wanted it to be.
Aditya Jha
· 3 years ago
Mr. Scoble, I come from a very different background (branding), so let me offer a different perspective here. I don't think this is either about Vista or the 60% re-write story (much as you'd like to focus the discussion around that path). It's about perceptions of MS as a company.
Over the last 10 years, there is a visible shift from product brands to company brands. It is driven (more and more) by how companies behave (than the product features). in the mid-90s, MS was seen as the super smart underdog in technology space where IBM was the faltering, arrogant giant. The browser wars, and the subsequent surrounding events, changed that. It was seen by many people as a bully. Still super smart, but a bully. To many, it had also become scheming and unscruplous.
If you notice, more people are asking for things like transparency, consistency (in statements coming out from the company over a periodof time) than perfect code. MS should not ignore these signals. Some of the language may be abrasive, the people may not count for much in your eyes, and they may be full time MS-baiters and haters; but i suggest that you try reading between the lines when you are more relaxed and this thing has blown over.
I am also awed by your stamina in reading and reacting to all comments.
Windows Managed Dedicated Serv
· 3 years ago
Interesting post here, who makes up stuff like this anyway?
All Comments
Oh, wait, you were talking about Windows and Vista. My bad... ;) I guess it's the stiff drink part that caught my attention.
Best, ~Toby Getsch
http://www.tweblog.com
That's all fine and good, but it still doesn't change the fact that Vista is getting delayed for the millionth time and, while demo machines are cool and all, no one really cares until they have the product in front of them.
You do ask provocative questions from time to time, but smart people could sense self-censorship was always present. Anyway... all that was better than reading PRs or marketing collateral....
But your reaction to story about Vista code rewriting, which for sure is not true, shows where your heart is really about.. And what kind truth you are defending. Your company lied about much bigger stuff, much bigger. For years...from top management to the whole world. Shame on you. You deserve this..
I know MS is happy to have Vista finally working without crashing when running something simple for couple of hours. Wow...this is 2006, Microsoft is biggest SW maker in world, Vista is more than 5 years in development and whole world should be happy because you guys finally did beta which does not crash? Get real...
You are not on the mission to go to the Moon for the first time, so whole country (or world) is living your mission accomplishments, and every milestone is big event for all of us...
We have alternative already on the market, it does not do not crash, and have everything Vista will have (maybe), once it is released...
Get your stuff together...finish that product on date as you have promised, and we will then judge what MS can produce in 5+ years. Did you rewrite 60% of code in 9 months or in two weeks, or you did not rewrite anything - who cares. Get us working product ASAP.
So please...try to stay "objective" as you did before, and your blog and Channel 9 will be on my day-to-day reading list...
Sincerely,
Mike
btw. I read on IE blog about some disturbing features of brand new IE. For example someone asked "will IE have feature "Open links in Tabs", IE dev team answered something like this "No, but this is cool feature, we like your feedback". Com'n guys, this can be added in 1 day. Didn't you see this features in Firefox a year ago? Or in Safari? Do you have single developer who can do something without asking Bill first? I hope Bill will schedule this feature for IE 8 :)
That kind of attitude toward users shows perfectly clear that you still think users are stupid and will believe yours feature set is the best they can get?
We have internet Scoble, we can see what other guys are offering to us for free, too.
Get it right out of the gate is more important to me than launching early with major issues and having to wait until SP1 is released months later.
Well, I don't know.... Maybe he means it will be changed to "Windows Pasta"... no, that's only a 40% rewrite, I guess you're right.... ;-)
There is only one way to quench all these criticisms... Ship a good product on time. I've stop thinking Microsoft can do that. Sold all my stock. It is time to stop talking about the future and deliver...
Are you surprised ?
---* Bill
Given the importance of Vista to Microsoft's future, it's time for Ballmer to step up, reassure everyone, and make crystal clear what is really going on. If he does, this Smarthouse kind of nonsense goes away, poof. If he doesn't, the company deserves all the flak it gets for breaking it's commitment to a 2006 launch and then creating this information vacuum. This is a job for Steve Ballmer, not Robert Scoble. This is the kind of situation where senior leadership shows if it is adding value or not. Sadly, so far, it's not.
This is complete nonsense on the 60% thing. I have worked on ALL releases of Windows shipped by Microsoft. I don't work there any more, and therefore have no one should worry about me speaking "marketing-speak like you". Shoot, Microsoft officially, and publicly hates my employeer (and I am assuming me).
There is not an ounce of truth to the 60% number.
Sure, over the course of development, 60% of the files may have been touched, a large number of functions may have had slight changes or new system wide defense mechnisms included, but give me a break. Rewrite means throw it out and write it again. My guess is that 60% of the code in Windows was written long ago and no one wants to touch it because of the tar-baby effect (If you touch it last, you now own it and all its bugs).
Windows is filled with code like:
for(i=0; i
Agree 100%. A few weeks ago, we had Gates/Ballmer in our face just about daily telling the world how everything was on track. Now that the train has come off the rails, they trot out Allchin to do a Baghdad Bob-esque fantasy show of bravado in the face of total failure and both Gates/Ballmer are suddenly MIA. Kudos again to Robert for dealing with this but it's ridiculous that it's falling largely on him to do so. Steve/Bill, if you can't lead then resign. Frankly, neither one of you has distinguished yourselves this entire decade.
Shame on anyone who ran this as a headline or continued it's propogation; you should all know better and if you don't well I think maybe you should re-examine your career choices.
Cluetrain manifesto #53: There are two conversations going on. One inside the company. One with the market.
I'll trust the conversation in the market over self-interested posturing from your workplace colleagues.
http://davidbau.com/archives/2006/03/25/vista_a...
OTOH, we did ship a version about once a year, which made it easier for teams to accept a lockdown, and not try to squeeze in 'one more feature' in the guise of a bugfix.
And Mark Lucovsky is above. They are both real software engineers who've earned their stripes in this industry (and who, like Mark says above, have no love lost for Microsoft). They both say that the 60% thing is bull.
You, sir (if you are a sir) are a troll and an anonymous one at that. You don't control the industry conversation. I'll go with Dave and Mark until you identify yourself.
Check out the latest quote from Steve Ballmer:
"Well, I think there are experts who claim Linux violates our intellectual property. I’m not going to comment. But to the degree that that’s the case, of course we owe it to our shareholders to have a strategy. And when there is something interesting to say, you’ll be the first to hear it."
If reading that makes you think that Microsoft is a company who thinks that suing people for using its primary competitor is a good idea, then you'll understand why people are willing to, no, *want* to believe that Microsoft has to rewrite 60% of its source code.
Everybody want to see the school bully fall flat on his face.
So, two wrongs make a right? Got it. Your ethical system isn't all that hot. Sorry, think about what you just said.
Six years late, and that's all you have to show for it?
Yep, it's SP4. That's all.
The Xbox team has spoken on this issue. Tons of employees who work on the guts of Windows have spoken. And, Charlie Owen of the Media Center team has spoken.
I send you back to Dave Winer who has a lot more authority in this matter than an anonymous jerk like you do.
I really am getting tired of fighting with anonymous jerks.
A service pack doesn't come with a new UI. It doesn't come with a new audio stack. It doesn't come with completely recompiled code. With a new security model. With kernel changes. With a new networking stack.
It's becoming pretty clear that anonymity here is just bringing a bunch of jerks. Maybe I should turn on comment moderation.
Hey, if we hate Google so much, why do so many Microsoft employees use it? (When I was at Google I took a look at the monitor that shows searches done around the world and Microsoft was doing more searches than the entire continent of Africa).
Whether you like Microsoft or not (for the record I mostly do and have some brilliant friends working there), whether you think they have made mistakes or not (they have) COME ON! propagating a story that talks abou a 60% rewrite of an OS is ludicrous!!!
Robert, Dave might be your friend but he's not saying that Windows Vista doesn't require a 60% rewrite. He's saying there's no way Microsoft could accomplish a 60% rewrite in the 8 months before it's scheduled to ship. I have no argument with that.
So, to quell the continued rumors and speculation about what is causing the continued delays, it would be great to get Brian Valentine on record to have a "naked conversation" about what is really going on over there. Now, if you don't have enough influence to pull that off, or if you ring up Brian he has no idea who you are, well I certainly understand. It was just a suggestion.
Yes he did. Right about the time Allchin told Gates Longhorn "was not going to work" and Windows needed a complete rewrite.
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,...
Hmmmm.
No, that's not the issue of this thread. It might be another thread's issue, but that's not what we keep talking about here. If you wanna talk about that and switch the topic, come on over to Channel 9.
>There is no clear discussion of what is causing the continued delays
Again, it's pretty clear that there isn't one thing that's causing the delays. Want one? My sound card's driver doesn't work in Windows Vista. Who is responsible for fixing that? Can Vista be released until it is? No. It's a popular sound card.
Finally, I'm not going to listen to you. You are an anonymous troll who keeps trying to switch the topic of conversation here. Have a good weekend.
Anon: yes, and that makes his words here even more interesting.
I notice that Windows and Office sales grew half as fast as the general PC market last year. If that's not marketshare loss, what is it?
Anon: that's just so much bull. But, glad you're under the influence of better stuff than I am at the moment. Is this the kind of thinking that passes for clarity of thought at our competitors? Yeah, go in and mouth off in Scoble's blog anonymously. When did this turn into Slashdot? Heheh. Geesh.
You might check the kinds of people I have access to. It isn't just low-level employees. Go look at the kinds of people I've interviewed for Channel 9. And go and read Charlie Owen. He works in the Media Center team and knows EVERYONE. Or, go and read Mark Lucovsky. He works at Google. Or go and ask Dave Winer. He has done more in his career than you'll ever even attempt. Or ask the Xbox team. Or ask Sean Alexander, he's worked in Windows for years. Or, or, or.
But, who are you? An anonymous jerk who is so cowardly that you won't even sign your own name and start a blog where we can come and make fun of you.
Robert, I'm not under the influence of anything right now. Maybe you should re-read my post later.
But, who are you?
Somebody who'll never attempt as much in my career as Dave Winer accomplished in his, I guess.
An anonymous jerk who is so cowardly that you won't even sign your own name and start a blog where we can come and make fun of you.
Why should I start my own blog? You seem to be trying to do just as good a job making fun of me here.
Going public with my name is just going to make me more vulnerable to personal attacks from Microsoft's goon squad, kind of like you softies do to competitors.
I read Charlie Owen's post. He didn't say the rewrite was "poppycock", he said the story was "poppycock". Nobody from Microsoft has specifically refuted a 60% rewrite - for all I know, it's entirely feasible Owen's code is 100% done, a 60% rewrite is still necessary, and nobody refutes it can't be done in 8 months.
Nonetheless, I noticed in typical Microsoft fashion Owens could not resist taking a stab at competitor's product on his own blog: Apple iTunes. First it was Jim Allchin saying the iPod nano had a "moisture problem" (never reported by anyone else), now Owen tells us about how iTunes "torques even [his] most stable Windows XP build"?
What an ethical organization you work for. Developers, developers, developers and Windows ecosystem rah rah rah, but heaven forbid that Windows ecosystem includes competitor's products because that "torques" even stable versions of Windows.
Where can I get a copy of this mythical stable version of Windows? Preferably one that doesn't "torque" under iTunes, too, as I am rather fond of that program.
TRANSLATION: I have absolutely no chemical excuse for being a jerk. You're just seeing my true personality come through.
>Going public with my name is just going to make me more vulnerable to personal attacks from Microsoft’s goon squad, kind of like you softies do to competitors.
TRANSLATION: If you knew the position I hold, and the company I work for, you'd break out in laughter.
TRANSLATION #2: I know that what I'm writing here is complete BS, so I wouldn't dare put my name to it and take the ridicule.
> Nobody from Microsoft has specifically refuted a 60% rewrite
TRANSLATION: Scoble doesn't really work for Microsoft.
Hey, anonymous jerk, I VERY SPECIFICALLY refuted it.
>Where can I get a copy of this mythical stable version of Windows?
I add nice non-anonymous bloggers to the beta. Since you're none of the above, I guess you'll have to wait until January 2007.
Surely the point is that Microsoft has announced that the product is delayed. Surely that means there must be *some* problem with the Vista project; even if the problem resides solely in project management. If there wasn't a problem, it would be shipping according the previously announced timelines.
This is a pain for customers who are looking forward to buying the new product. However, the truth is - when the product is an OS (or includes an OS), it's better to ship a high-quality product late than ship a low-quality product on-time. I don't see that Microsoft had any choice but to delay the product launch; just as Sony has had no choice but to delay the launch of the PS3.
I can't see there being a 60% re-write or even, as the original article that spawned this actually said, 60% of the code needing some kind of change. That's probably not physically possible without seriously compromising the stability of the system.
I can see a situation where a very serious and easily exploitable security concern prompts an extensive review of a large proportion of the system. That would not surprise me. If the exploit affects code that is fundamental to the security model for the whole system, I could see that large proportion reaching a 60% regression.
The original reason for the delay was given as security.
Sounds like a reasonable explanation without requiring a "60% re-write".
A lot of conclusions jumped to there, and I'm sure that this is nowhere near the actual reason(s). Rather than just bashing and believing you're right, put some thought into why this may be happening and let's hear why (that's to the commenters, not to the original blog poster).
CDB
No matter what anyone says, you will hear only what you want to hear - so be it.
If this is really such a big deal to some of you then you always have the right of choice dont you? Exercise it.
Even better - Get a life.
So don't allow anonymous posting. It's very simple.
"getting very close to turning off comments"
Why don't you then? Stop moaning about it - either deal with the trolls like everyone else has to, or give up.
I'm the last person who should try to teach anybody about PR after my own smaller but still nasty run-in with the blogosphere.
But even I would tell you not to threaten to turn off your comments on your blog - that just creates a bigger story and makes it run for another week. You won't shut the story down, but you might become the subject of a feature article in WIRED, and you don't want that.
Just ignore any comment that doesn't merit an answer, please don't denigrate or demean people, or shut us all out entirely. We can see some of these people are idiots for ourselves, we don't need you to point it out. Doing that for us makes you seem reactionary, rude and willing to try anything to win an argument.
Regarding Smarthome. Yeah, that's the danger of answering real concerns, but it was at the top of Memeorandum before I posted about it and the crap he spewed was being spread by other bloggers so I had to answer the claims. Worrying that I'll help a jerk out by posting about them isn't something I can take into account when the damage is spreading.
>So don’t allow anonymous posting. It’s very simple.
Yeah, right. There's no way to do that.
There is a hierarchy of who we should be listening to, though. At the very bottom are those who are anonymous. Why? Cause if you won't sign your name (in a verifyable way) to what you write you simply are not worth listening to.
Because you know, for you to get so angry about people's misstatements about Microsoft when you refuse to correct your own misstatements about Adobe is you know, kind of hypocritical.
And with you being so concerned with the truth and accuracy, I'm sure you wouldn't want to be guilty of that which you are actively fighting.
But, whatever, I just updated the post so that it's very clear now what I meant.
He explained why they won't be updating the current versions to be universal binaries, and will instead make the next versions universal. The way you wrote it was incorrect, and inaccurate. Period. I'm glad you corrected it, but for you to get so friggin' mad about people being inaccurate and incorrect when you were doing the same thing was dumb, and you know it.
Just because Andrew's never found a fact he couldn't dodge doesn't make it okay when you're incorrect.
The fact you are trying to justify it now instead of just saying "Oh crap, I screwed up. Here's the correct way of describing that post, sorry about that", is a sure sign that you've been doing Microsoft PR for too long. "Even though I was wrong, I'll never admit it, even when it is clearly apparent and obvious".
If you want to rail about this kind of crap then SET THE EXAMPLE.
Unlike those two guys I actually linked so that my readers could get the whole story. The link corrected anything stupid I wrote. Sorry you don't get that difference.
Last week, Matt Deatherage made a bet on the Macjournals Subscriber list that certain people would report this as wrong, solely because it would generate hits. Nice to see that Andrew doesn't disappoint.
You will, after a bit of effort, admit error, and even correct it. You'll kvetch about it, but you'll do it. That puts you far above Andrew and his ilk. You'll note that I link to you on my site, and not the Reg. (Although I really do have to fix that link location...oy) I don't agree with most of what you say about things, and you have an amazing talent for speed-induced hoofinmouth, but you do try to be as correct as your flying fingers will allow you.
If we can just get you to start proof-reading better, then a large chunk of the comment traffic would go away.
The entire 60% issue is silly anyway, because it can be both true and untrue depending on how you count. If you only count new code, then it's so stupid as to be humorous. But if you count lines of code that will be touched in the process of bug hunting, and adding in things like WPF/E (That would kind of make it not feature - complete nor in full lockdown, when they're talking about adding that support in Q3 2006, which is where some of the problem is coming from), then I will bet you a dollar that you could show 60% of the code has been changed.
People are getting pissy about a number with absolutely zero context, but that's what people do in this country. They jump on facts without context.
But seriously, if I ranked you with Orlowski, I'd just post an occasional link to stuff you write calling you a complete jackass, and you sure as heck wouldn't be on my site as a permanent link. Besides, you made CARs! That shows you have FAR more cred than Orlowski! Even Dori agreed, you're like, officially famous now. Only the Mac Glitterati make CARs
From 2000 to XP it was a interface upgrade, some security fixes/memory management and .zip handeling in 2yrs, that wasnt to bad, as they wernt really needed, but the UI and .zip addition was a nice addition. But here we ar in 2006, XP is the standard, but 2000 will still do the job very well, and Vista almost seems like an upgrade that really offers nothing to the majority of users. MS touts security and stability in every new release, that nothing new, but Honeslty I feel like something is just lacking in Vista, but I'm not sure what. I just honeslty expected well, better.
I will most likely upgrade simply for teh speed and memory managemnt changes, but I sadly have found myself looking into OSX and linux as possible alternatives. I;m not sure if I simply expected to much in 6ys, or if its all the delays, and 5yrs of XP have just worn me out.
Either way, greetings from Neowin.
But hey, you said free beer, so woohoo!
Secondly, just because a story breaks out of Australia, you needn't make it sound as though somehow the very location makes it dubious. Last time I checked your company took a billion dollars a year out of Australia, perhaps instead of scoffing, you should just say thank you.
I liked you better when you were fresh to Microsoft, now you're probably doing them more harm than good. The jounalist in question got a story, he quoted directly a source that as the marketing manager for a partner could legitimately know that type of information. We're also talking about an award winning journalist who broke one of the biggest corruption cases in Australia's history (I know you don't think much of us, but hey). So, perhaps rather than dismiss him so out of hand, perhaps the blogging mouthpiece of Microsoft should check the facts and find out the truth. If your own people come back with "No Comment" or "We don't discuss product development details" then perhaps a simple apology to the journalist in question would suffice.
Over the last 10 years, there is a visible shift from product brands to company brands. It is driven (more and more) by how companies behave (than the product features). in the mid-90s, MS was seen as the super smart underdog in technology space where IBM was the faltering, arrogant giant. The browser wars, and the subsequent surrounding events, changed that. It was seen by many people as a bully. Still super smart, but a bully. To many, it had also become scheming and unscruplous.
If you notice, more people are asking for things like transparency, consistency (in statements coming out from the company over a periodof time) than perfect code. MS should not ignore these signals. Some of the language may be abrasive, the people may not count for much in your eyes, and they may be full time MS-baiters and haters; but i suggest that you try reading between the lines when you are more relaxed and this thing has blown over.
I am also awed by your stamina in reading and reacting to all comments.