Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

david — Wed, 21 May 2008 10:26:38 -0000

Hi, im a iPhone official programmer (!?) and expert in flash and flex technologies for big brands and companies. (yah, my apps doesn't explode, u know).

All you guys talking about is really nonsense and funny :)

How can Jobs "FORBIDDEN" to put flash on their phones???

Apple is not the people who will program a flash player. Who did thought that??? Apple will not code a single line of an Adobe program. IS LOGIC!

Of course Jobs has been asked thousands of times about flash player on iPhone, but, he has nothing to be with Adobe company, more than negotiating to put it BY DEFAULT on their phones.

I would better listen what did Adobe say in respect.
The last news i had was that Adobe was very happy about the appearing of the iPhone SDK, because that way they would have a flash player for the iPhone in a short time.

So believe me, sure iPhone will have a flash player soon. Adobe will program it, no doubt, Apple would not code that. And it will appear soon.
no idea if it will be a Lite version of flash, but there will be a version, 100% sure.

And about iPhone power...whatever u program to a mobile device will have it's limitations. Even nokia or wmobile phones. People think that a mobile with windowsmobile inside actually runs windows vista?? i'm amazed about the opinion of people.
Of course, silverlight for a mobile wont be same as silverlight for a desktop. Neither any other app.

And about that, could add that iPhone is quite powerfull, and runs an OS that is more near to a desktop system (in kernel, resources admin, etc) than any other mobiles.

So guys, i think u won't see a website with animation on a mobile soon. But im sure we will see flash apps on the iPhone soon, since the only thing Adobe needs to make it, is the SDK, and they already have the SDK, and might have many programmers doing it.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Nikos — Sat, 03 May 2008 17:18:02 -0000

Guys the huge Thing would be MICR
OSOFT SILVERLIGHT & ADOBE FLASH SUPPORT iphone.
Sounds good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

RogerV — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:50:49 -0000

"Do you LIVE in the USA? Where DSL is around 1.5M/sec and Cingular [stink-u-lar] runs Edge instead of 3G? Your ‘RIA’ stuff will fall flat. And does."

Actually the RIA style of web app does much better in this scenario as it's not constantly pulling newly generated web page UI from the server. It just makes SOA services calls to the server - or even better does BlazeDS messaging (server-side push of events), which use less bandwidth.

The nice thing about RIA web app approach of Adobe Flex is it puts MVC back down completely on the client-side. It was a brain dead approach in splitting MVC across network tiers that all the server-side web frameworks have done all these years. It is web 1.0 apps that suck in particular when bandwidth is mediocre. Our customers love our Flex apps as they're so much more robust than old web 1.0 web apps due to this very issue.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

RogerV — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:43:08 -0000

"Flash is used 80% of the time or more in ‘look at me!’ crap like banners and ads; that slow down and crash browsers. Jobs was WISE to keep that crap off his iPhones. Joe Cartoon nonwithstanding."

People keep trying to demean Adobe's RIA technology by referencing the years of multi-media marketing annoyances built on Flash. However, since August 2006 release of Flex 2 beta (followed by Jan 2007 release of production Flex 2), it has been all about RIA - which is based on the Flex technology enhancement of the Flash player.

This is what enterprise IT is now busily retooling its business applications around - which is now Flex 3 and AIR.

Flex/AIR is now being used to retool what once was being built using such things as Java Swing, .NET Winform (in my company we've abandoned .NET for Flex-based GUIs), and even in some cases Java applets.

However, because Flex is a web RIA solution that runs perfectly (and consistently well) in all browsers of note, it is also a great RIA solution for retooling the consumer Internet user experience. Flash player is the most defacto programming standard that exist on the Internet (as HTML/DOM/Javascript are not very consistent and hence not much of a standard actually exist in that realm). That's a very happy story as the Flash player is so pervasively seeded due to sites like YouTube.com. None-the-less, Flex was first devised and aimed at enterprise software development. It's rather cool, though, how the old programming paradigm of Flash meshes so well and rather seamlessly with the new Flex programming model. That makes for some very nice UI capability.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

drunken_economist — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 02:59:09 -0000

@R Majhen:

Nope, I'm just pissed at all you fanbois who are trying to cram Director crapola down our throats.

I'm don't much like the Silverlight fanbois either.. they are beyond pathetic.

As to my 'research' and 'experience' open your damn eyes.

* Mobile phones still have POSTAGE STAMP displays. Even the iPhone / Touch displays are ONLY 320x480. Steve was RIGHT to cordon off Youtube to its own app, and restrict _Mobile_Safari from downloading or plugins. For the iPhone it's all about what powers the RIM set too: Textual and static graphic content.

If you want to develop 'games' or 'farting frog interactivity' then use the SDK. Steve is after the Enterprise customers who favor _reliability_ over _flying baloney_.

* Flash is used 80% of the time or more in 'look at me!' crap like banners and ads; that slow down and crash browsers. Jobs was WISE to keep that crap off his iPhones. Joe Cartoon nonwithstanding.

Again, Flash is [blink] or animated gif. If you wanna look all cheap and porno, then by all means bandy about that acronym RIA or 'embedded content' some more. Meanwhile Scooby Dooby can't [embed] in Wordpress because the WP folks consider it a security risk. Which. it. is.

* Content that you want to pipe thru Flash / Flex / Air doesn't have to be piped at all. There are REAL robust solutions like Java apps and uh, HTML/CSS for that. Unless you're pitching Fuh-lash as a type of DRM so that users can't copy and paste text. In which case you're in the DRM bid-ness. Which is in decline.

* Do you LIVE in the USA? Where DSL is around 1.5M/sec and Cingular [stink-u-lar] runs Edge instead of 3G? Your 'RIA' stuff will fall flat. And does.

* Anyway, we're headed into a recession. MS and Adobe are shifting MOST if not all their Dev to India, meaning your 'authoring tools' and 'dev environments' will be buggier than shit. I kinda feel sorry for you propeller heads stuck in visual basic, Lingo, Action script.

As to my language, Scooby Dooby's blog was such patent BS, I just couldn't resist on loading up on some good rotgut and then typing it like it is. Cheers!

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Robert Majhen — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:16:21 -0000

To Some Geek ... why are you trying to leave impression how big geek you really are ... the nick ... then this deprecated language . Are these information you are providing here based on your research and experience? Well ... mine are.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

RogerV — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 07:30:47 -0000

I've never seen a more patently ridiculous blog from a sold-called hotshot blogger.

Just as Sun announced they'll be porting Java JME to the iPhone SDK, Adobe will be able to do their own port of the Flash Player to iPhone. Sun examined the iPhone SDK and found it entirely adequate to proceed to take matters into their own hands to get Java on iPhone. (We all know how Steve has infamously panned Java for the iPhone.)

Let's face it, Steve Jobs says a lot of crap for marketing reasons that serve his own personal vision of Apple supremacy. Adobe's Flash/Flex/AIR and Sun's Java crimp his style in that regard.

Yet at the same time, Apple had to bow to the reality that the iPhone will succeed in the long term by cultivating a 3rd party market for software - hence the iPhone SDK. So the genie is out of the bag.

Scoble, when it comes to trying to project a reality distortion field in this matter of Silverlight vs. Flex, dude you come off as completely pathetic - and ridiculous.

Silverlight 1.0 player has 1.5 million downloads a day. Silverlight 2.0 is still mere betaware even after MIX. (All those downloads are still just 1.0 media players so there's still no seeding of the consumer market with a Silverlight that is capable of competing against Flash Player 9, which supports Flex 2 and Flex 3.

In the developed countries, the Flash Player 9 penetration of Internet users is already above 90%. Now think of that as one ponders this figure:

Despite how already saturated the Internet audience is with a Flash Player 9 capable of running Flex 2 and 3 RIA web apps, Adobe still sees 12 million new downloads (vs. the 1.5 million sited for Silverlight above).

Flex RIA is so far ahead of Microsoft's great hope Silverlight 2.0, one has to wonder why Microsoft should even bother. Where things stand today, Adobe technologically is a full two generations ahead of Silverlight. In end-user adoption, there's not even a comparison to be made as there is no consumer adoption to talk about for a Silverlight where it could be considered to compete against Adobe's Flex and AIR.

Microsoft lands one somewhat significant deal (NBC sports) while everybody else of note goes with Flash and Flex. The Salesforce.com CEO is pretty typical of the corporate stance on the matter right now - Salesforce.com is only concentrating on Flash/Flex/AIR, they'll not be bothering to mess with Silverlight at all. The only folks that pay any attention to Silverlight are those that are rigidly .NET in their development stack. Those that care about succeeding in the marketplace with a superior technology are sticking with Flash/Flex/AIR. And Flex will work just fine with a .NET tool stack too so there's no reason those folks should consider themselves captive to Microsoft Silverlight.

It's fine to champion a company one favours, but jeeze, spouting nothing but empty bravado comes off merely as pathetic.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

John B — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 21:13:03 -0000

Presumably, Adobe could, as Sun is promising to do with Java, deliver a version of Flash for the iPhone themselves. Consider how long it took for them to port their apps to 1. OSX and 2. OSX on Intel, Apple probably isn't about to make promises about delivering Flash on iPhone in any timeframe.

Also, all the current apps, IIRC, are developed by Apple, meaning Adobe would have to share source code with Apple, which is also probably not all that likely. Considering Sun's promise to bring Java to iPhone, those who really want Flash (*cough* animated banner ads *cough*) on the iPhone should start pestering Adobe. :-)

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

TranceMist — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:27:11 -0000

I think the technical challenges could be overcome.

However, I agree that the reason is strategy.
(Flash would be a back door to the iPhone)

While there's a lot of flash-based content you may want to enjoy, in the end Flash is a kludegy platform that should be minimized and depricated.

Having competition from Silverlight and whatever Apple decides to put on the iPhone will be a very good thing, in the end. Despite your short-term pain.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

drunken_economist — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:49:52 -0000

Sorry. I meant ADOBE also doesn't get the bone. My bad. Some more thoughts:

5/ Why do you think Apple has been working with Youtube / Google ? To get out of that little *.flv wrapper. It really doesn't matter that Adobe added h.264 support, that's like a *burp* at the dinner table. If Adobe wants on the iPhone, they are going to have to make their own Flash browser, or perhaps they'll partner with a sympathetic browser vendor and you'll see a signed application.

But Flash as a plugin in MobileSafari? [duly note the name]. Don't. Make. Me. Laugh.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

drunken_economist — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:43:01 -0000

What a wag. Scobbie, you conveniently ignore-

1/ While your butt end of the world are flash fanbois, the rest of us are installing Flashblock. I *love* that movie, it shows content uncluttered by the [blink] tag of this generation, Fuh-lash.

2/ Apple is not going to allow Adobe to hold what is it? 2.5 mil handsets hostage to Adobe's timeline to update their cruddy Flashplayer plugin. Why subject handset ENDusers to what Desktop Mac users gnash their teeth over??

3/ There's an SDK. Adobe can line up like every other vendor and port Fuh-lash Light like everyone else.

4/ Oh, and here's an important one: the US telco infrastructure. Lessee how all that 'Rich Content' you keep getting wet over runs. On the mis-named 'Edge' network.

Basically, Stevo is killing a number of birds with one stone. Apple doesn't get the bone, neither does Microsoft, and users [of the burdened Edge system] all win. Win-Win-Win. Except for Adobe and Fuh-lash fanbois.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Robert Majhen — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 04:37:57 -0000

ok ... since we are in Flash since 1999 I may not be objective, but ... few facts:

1. There is a flash player for windows mobile that runs inside IE ... it works great since we developed applications and tested them

2. Flash Lite isnt going to be standard for applications but flash player inside browser will

3. Opera will release their Opera Mobile 9.5 with Flash Lite 3 integrated into browser very soon

4. Dont forget independent browser manufacturer .. try Skyfire ... once iSDK is out they will most likely create version for iPhone too that supports flash player

5. Peak of mobile gaming market is few years away from now .. try to imagine how will handhelds look like 2011. .... can you imagine not running Flash?

My 2 cents on topic :)

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Mister Snitch! — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 01:47:59 -0000

Before you write an inflammatory headline like "Apple stabs Adobe in the back" and then admit that you DON'T really know the issues ("I can't believe" is not the same as being able to say "here's why that's not accurate"), why not... GET the facts?

I.e.: http://www.appleinsider.com...

Until this moment I honestly had much more respect for your opinion on anything tech. From here on, anything I see on your site has to be open to question.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Christopher Coulter — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:20:37 -0000

a whole hour with John Kao

Actually I have watched some, mostly of him trying to sell his book and outlook, it's not really an interview, it's an informerical. File him under 'endless talking head', not a techie, so I guess you get brownie points for that. And I was thinking in terms of overall strategy and editorial content marriages.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Danno — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:07:11 -0000

Dude, the iPhone chokes on Google Reader. Flash rendering that isn't shitty?

nowai.

Maybe iPhone rev 2 when they can shove more RAM and a faster and more energy efficient processor in there.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

frmad — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:04:33 -0000

This post is hotting, and both of this post and this blog are high ranked in the top report of wp. But today we have generated
<abbr title="Professional top blogs report"> a more pro top blogs daily report </abbr> . Now I've just posted <abbr title="Professional top blogs report"> the newest report </abbr> , see and reply me some comments. Thanks.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

hanford — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:09:03 -0000

"Flash isn’t that heavyweight"?

Are you nuts Robert? Look at the javascript specs that iPhone does ... it's 10,000 times slower than your average PC. Flash does just about everything with the CPU. I've noticed that when I play flash video on my old laptop the cpu fan kicks in.

Seriously, the iPhone isn't powerful enough to run Flash, just like we'd never expect it to play Quake.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Robert Scoble — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 03:49:09 -0000

Christopher: we have a whole hour with John Kao, who taught business for 14 years. If that's not good enough for Fast Company's readers, I don't know what is. It's pretty obvious you haven't even watched the videos.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Christopher Coulter — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 03:40:42 -0000

Stabs in back? Gotta love bloggers, drama-queening and conspiracy theorizing everything they understand not.

Flash regular is too heavy, and Flash Lite lacks the full 'Zen of Apple' feel, says Jobs -- nothing more or less complicated than that.

PS - FastCompany.TV? That maybe I could look forward to, but this is just Scoble Show minus the trainwreck of Podtech. Ouch. Dud. Should have hit ground running with a fuller slate of programming, something that would actually appeal to the Inc. and Fast Company readers, as I can't imagine the tech slash celebrity romps (and eternally endless Talking Heads and Photo Walks) will hold broad appeal beyond the usual cult. Would be interesting, if instead of going off Scoble Show willy-nilly, it would actually follow the editorial ballgame, i.e. a company walk-thru or extended interview, based on something featured in the current issue. Marry the content, instead of just another ScoblewhateverIbumpintoChannel9Podtech copycat.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Fernando — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 01:04:30 -0000

Why is this focused only alleged politice between Adobe and Apple? Why is the the technical feasibility of adding Flash support *NOT* a viable arguement here? Additionally, what mobile platform currently supports Flash *WELL*? (Keywords being supports Flash well.)

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

JS — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:31:01 -0000

Flash lite? Why does the iPhone need flash? Silverlight will die a slow painful death. No tools to develop with on the Mac. Why would Apple use Silverlight so it can take the same abuse from MS that it has taken over the years with Office? Why would Apple give MS any kind of leverage into this part of their business knowing how MS uses this leverage to control others fortunes? Anyone that thinks that is going to happen has their head up their arse & has no sense of the history between these two companies. Hey Robert, Apple was also a large part why Adobe succeeded & still does. MS, of course had absolutely no part in making desktop publishing happen. You're statements are just ignorant.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

kramer — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 22:45:57 -0000

once again viewership is low and robert and the gang at fastcompany are getting nervous.

time to take a topic from techmeme and craft a really flamboyant headline.

apple is always good for comments. "stab in the back" should provoke the fan boys.

presto, more downloads!

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Paul Brian — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:35:07 -0000

Can't help but think Apple are shooting themselves in the foot here.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

Damien — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:22:02 -0000

Robert

I love the access you get to people. And it is enjoyable to play 'strategy consultant' over a beer.

However, "stab in the back" is awfully strong and not very well backed up. There is a detailed history between the two to appreciate, and even the relatively little I know of it suggests that "stab in the back" isn't a realistic representation of the situation. These companies make commercial decisions and these is another of those.

Your son would be much more impressed with your knowledge about matters Apple if you supplemented your reading with RoughlyDrafted - which has written content that is, overall, very compelling. And highly educational.

And daring fireball is good too.

Both have addressed the Flash on iPhone issue. Far better than you. If you're going to comment so strongly, do some research and provide some links to external commenters with developed opinions. We read them as well as you.

Your main value is access, shown over an accessible medium, meaning I can watch and appreciate in Australia things that used not be possible. Thanks for contributing these things.

I've been using an iPhone in Australia for months now, and I cannot say that the absence of Flash has bothered for me for a minute. Personally, I don't even like waiting for Flash over a fast land connection to a Mac Pro.

Finally, it seems Steve has outlined what would be required to operate Flash on the iPhone. The missing product. A 'maybe' to Flash on the iPhone.

Why not go and speak to Adobe about why they won't make an intermediate program that your users suggest would be necessary since no Dual Core Desktop / Flash Lite would work?

I guess the commercial return wouldn't be in Adobe's interest.

So, again, tell me in more detail about the stabbing in the back. How, why, etc. in a way that would stand up to scrutiny by RoughlyDrafted.

Again, thanks for playing your role in bringing access of the tech world to monitors all over the world.

Re: Apple stabs Adobe in the back

synthmeister — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:35:17 -0000

You're forgetting several key points:
1. Apple helped Adobe rise from obscurity, not the other way around, when Apple used PS in it's first LaserPrinters.
2. As others have said, Adobe has plenty of history screwing Apple, starting with Premiere and continuing with their foot-dragging conversions of Photoshop and with one of their main execs recommending PCs over Mac a few years ago.
3. Flash is by no means a standard on mobile computing, so why should Apple help it become one?
4. Do you really think Apple has sold even one less iPhone because it's lack of Flash support?