Scobleizer - Latest Comments in Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

adir1 — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:54:32 -0000

Ouch, I am with everyone and this comment was a "self-goal" as they say in soccer.

Robert was clearly offering constructive comments, not starting any flame wars.

Is being childish prerequisite to developing augmented reality games? I hope not...

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

bosnienboken — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 04:46:01 -0000

If just 10% are super excited about very precise location then it's ok. Can't design a product for everyone. You've said something similar yourself.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

tim — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 08:50:27 -0000

Please. Stop. Comparing. Wave. To. Twitter. Or. Facebook.

Thank. You.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

LeeNixon — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:11:17 -0000

I play Gowalla, but not FourSquare (I'm not sure I can in the UK), so I'm not about to offer an opinion on which one is best.

Gowalla, for me, is just a way of having fun when I travel around. I have no issues with the 'anti-feature' of GPS. I like visiting spots that other people have created, and picking up stamps and items. The social aspect is also a bonus - I've made some good friends through Gowalla that I wouldn't otherwise have met.

Gowalla is, after all, an iPhone app that you can try out for free. You might like it, you might not. If you have concerns about it, then don't download it.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

John Wright — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:18:45 -0000

Over the past few days I've been using Foursquare and checking in. When I was introduced to the idea of location based social networks I was a bit freaked out about the idea. And after reading this I'm a bit freaked out again!

Overall, I'm thinking this (like Foursquare) is great if I can keep everything private only to my friends (which I don't know that I can). Sharing locations and places to go and things to do with friends is cool but not the whole world. I think the privacy option is a very important feature.

As far as Gowalla's feature/anti-feature ... I agree, choosing from nearby locations works out best. No need to record or share my GPS co-ordinates in most situations.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Devin Reams — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:50:46 -0000

Right, but the past decisions are not reflective of the current sentiment. They've adapted and overall foursquare's "alternative was to trust the user".

Did you happen to catch Josh Williams' (Gowalla) response below?

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Otto — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:58:16 -0000

Get a copy of "Navizon". It can locate you via Wi-Fi on the iTouch, and send your location directly to Navizon, which can then update FireEagle for you. If you are jailbroken, it can also run in the background and auto-update every 10 minutes. Free, or $10 for extra features.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Tom Morris — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 04:29:15 -0000

See, this is why I really like Yahoo's FireEagle. I can give it an exact location safe in the knowledge that the apps which pull their location data from FireEagle get only the level of data I am comfortable with sharing with them. So, with Facebook, I share my exact location because I know it's only going to be seen by friends on Facebook.

How am I updating FireEagle? Simple: I have an iPhone app on my iPod touch which uses the wi-fi-based location services to figure out where I am. I've got a script on my Linux box which keeps an eye on where I am logging in from (over SSH) and tells FireEagle about them based on the IP address: it's loaded up with all the free wifi spots I use around London. I'm also going to start detecting where I am based on what devices are connected to the local subnet on my network at home - if my laptop or iPod touch are connected, I'm at home. You know what? I'm getting pretty damn precise geolocation even though none of the devices I use have any GPS in them at all.

If you are going to build a location-based service, make it so I can check in using any damn method I want to. Because I can come up with more accurate ways to tell you where I am than you can ever imagine. I really want to be able to update my Google Latitude this way: if Google ever open up an API, I'll just write a bridge script to automatically push my FireEagle location into Latitude.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Bill Kinney — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:03:33 -0000

I was about to go check out Gowalla, till I saw this post...

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Matt Welch — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:31:51 -0000

I don't get the hand-wringing about the GPS as a danger to privacy here. In both the (non-GPS) 4SQ case, and the (GPS) gowalla case, the end result is the same: you're telling your friends exactly where you are at a given time. The only difference is the method used to determine that place.

Robert's unusal (and a bit odd) case, where he doesn't actually check in where is, and instead relies on insider knowledge amongst his friends to divine his actual location, isn't really that useful on a large scale (imagine if ALL your 4SQ friends used that method), and I suspect doesn't happen that often.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

John E. Bredehoft (Empoprises) — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:30:16 -0000

If the business is a car dealer or computer business, one freebie per year is enough. :)

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Matt Welch — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:28:20 -0000

That's simply not the case. Per Dennis' own comments above, they initially used GPS to certify check ins. They decided not, not based on any "presumption of innocence," but because of the perceived inconvenience of the GPS method.

This has nothing to do with 4SQ assuming the best in its users, and gowalla presuming the worst.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Tony Wright — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:15:50 -0000

There are a couple of ways to correct/ask for clarification from a pundit/blogger. I believe you just identified one of the wrong ways. Calling someone a liar on their blog is a really bad idea unless you are sure they are being malicious.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

ryanw — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:53:23 -0000

Though, I've enjoyed BrightKite, Shizzow, Latitude, and Foursquare for a time, I find I'm not the right demographic to stay with any of them. After a while I freak myself out with the info I'm sharing there, plus, I just don't get out enough.

But, to your point about freaking people out. I get the same reaction from everybody in my family. I even invited a bunch of them onto Latitude (many have iPhones, so they're not scared of all things tech) and not one accepted, my own family! :-).

So, yes, absolutely a killer (in a bad way) feature to require GPS.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Jason Carter — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:52:09 -0000

And with this response, you just assured that myself and all of my friends will stay as far as humanly possible after being initially interested by Robert's posts about the service.

Well played.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

redpillspeeddate — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:46:31 -0000

If I really wanted to I could probably steal the Mayor of the Ritz from Robert, however I wouldn't want to as I think Robert will attract more interesting geeks to the Ritz than I can. Therefore I benefit by getting to meet more interesting people. However, I do think I need to get deeper into foursquare and become Mayor of the Princeton Jetty, then I will have an excuse to not be dropped in on while surfing :)

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

livejamie — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:36:15 -0000

You sir, are a douche-bag.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Devin Reams — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:09:44 -0000

Wow, what an amazingly abrasive public reply from a company that forces users to prove their innocence (whereas 4S assumes people are generally doing the 'right' things).

I think this post alone sums up the difference between Gowalla and foursquare. Not even interested in checking Gowalla out again now. Thanks, Josh.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Devin Reams — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:32:51 -0000

Having read all the comments and yours, Dennis, I think the fundamental difference in perception is this:

- foursquare assumes people's intentions are all good
- Gowalla assumes people's intentions are bad

The difference is being forced to prove your innocence (Gowalla) or being assumed innocent until proven otherwise (foursquare).

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Otto — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:24:02 -0000

The fact that you can fake Foursquare by telling it you are somewhere other than you are is reason enough for me to not bother playing it.

Why bother participating in a competition that anybody can trivially rig against you?

The purpose of a geolocation-based game is to, you know, actually GO to that location. I mean, that's the actual fun part, going there. If you don't have to go to the location to play the game, then there's no point to playing the game in the first place.

And no business in it's right mind is going to offer any sort of benefits based on a game that can be so trivially and easily "hacked".

FourSquare fail. Gowalla win.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Otto — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:18:11 -0000

How in the heck can you have an "opt-out" when you have to "opt-in" in the first place??

*It's a location app*. The thing is explicitly designed to show your location to your friends. That's the whole purpose of it.

I mean, saying that you can't opt-out of showing your location is like saying that you can't opt-out of sending your emails to people when you use the Mail app. That's what it's *designed to do*.

The "opt-out" is to either a) not use it or b) not have any friends on it. Simple, eh?

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Scobleizer — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:12:36 -0000

Gowalla is playing hard ball by being incorrect and not getting their facts. Not a good first start.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Scobleizer — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:04:54 -0000

I had to go outside to check in at Sequoia Hospital.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

Otto — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:56:50 -0000

Slight problem with your argument:

-Anybody can actually play Gowalla.
-Most people cannot play FourSquare because they don't support their city.

Gowalla wins.

Re: Antifeatures: big mistake that location app developers make

dens — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:57:50 -0000

Just wanted to weigh in on this from the foursquare side. In the early days of foursquare testing (pre-SXSW), we restricted checkins based on GPS (like Gowalla). We found this didn't work for two reasons:

#1. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the iPhone GPS can be when you first fire up the app. In NYC, its not uncommon for the first "fix" you get to be 5-10 blocks away (and of course the accuracy improves after 5, 10, 15 seconds...) When we were restricting checkins by GPS, we were forcing the user to wait for sometimes up to 20 seconds to get a good enough fix and it just felt like a lousy user experience. (no doubt this gets better in the future, but this is using 2.5 & 3G iPhones). The better alternative was to trust the user to accurately report their location.

#2. Users *love* the pre-checkins. (This was a big "feature" within dodgeball too.) Users don't just want to check-in when they arrive at a place, they want to check-in on the walk or the cab ride over. I did this last night in my cab from Times Square -> downtown (and also added a "see you in 10 mins!" shout). We have people that check in as they're leaving work and we have people that check-in when they're on the way home (because they forgot to check-in while they were there). Restricting via GPS would prevent both of these scenarios.

I get the whole "cheater" argument - and sure this is a problem on foursquare - but I think there are better ways to fix it. Right now, we have a small number of people in some cities that are clearly gaming the system (checking in too often from places that are physically too far away from one another). We can write rules that prevent people from making these checkins in the first place, but those rules would also penalize the pre-checkin'ers, etc.

Instead, we're quietly flagging people we think are "misusing" the service based on frequency and geography. We're basically doing the same thing Gowalla is doing - calculating how far someone is from the place they say they're at - but instead of preventing the checkin at all, we just flag it as "mischevious".

Eventually, we'll algorithmically use these flags to figure out who are cheaters are and then start to prevent them from earning rewards, becoming mayors, dominating the leaderboard etc. This is a pretty hard problem to solve (which is we haven't fixed it yet) but we're definitely taking the time to make sure we get it right. The last thing we want to do is call our users "cheaters" when they're not.

- @dens
co-founder, foursquare