Scobleizer - Latest Comments in An evangelism opportunity…

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Alex — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:45:45 -0000

I can't help but notice the divide between people who are praising Zooomr and the ones who are criticizing it, seems to be the exact same as the divide between people who have any technical understanding of what Kris & Thomas have accomplished, and those who don't.

The comments to this post contain a whole lot of "Things crashed. Since they don't have as much backup hardware available as, say, flickr, *OBVIOUSLY* they're not ready for prime-time."

Seriously, say it with me. Startup. Startups don't have money pouring out of their ears to swap out hardware in 5 minutes, nor do they have staff size required to get something like that done.

They've had hiccups. So what? Anyone who writes software understands what a massive undertaking Zooomr would have been, even if one had a TEAM of developers at their disposal.

The fact that a company consisting of all of one developer could even get THIS far speaks volumes to their talent and dedication. Just think what they'll be able to accomplish when they're over the initial humps and have some breathing room.

It can be really disheartening to work yourself to the bone and accomplish something amazing, and then be nitpicked to death by a bunch of people who see a couple hiccups and write the whole thing off as damaged goods written by talentless hacks. And really, it's just a dumb attitude. As far as the nay-sayers go, I'd really like to see any one of you do better.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Coleman Hines — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:45:15 -0000

While there's no doubt that Kristopher is a talented youngster with a big future, I for one am very happy to see Thomas Hawk having to eat some humble pie.

Welcome to the real world.

This is only the first of Zooomr's challenges in the transition to a viable website. I wait to see how they handle scale when they get to 20 million photos, or managing a community when they get more than 50,000 active users.

I hope Thomas Hawk has learnt that taking cheap pot shots at competitors is easy but its not so easy when they're his own challenges. Less talk more action fellas.

But on the whole, good luck to Zooomr.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

John Rav — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:11:38 -0000

Sorry, This does not inspire too much confidence for the future. I would think that after the first failed launch attempt of Mark III which caused a week downtime, that a little more testing would have happened. Stability or load testing (?) not sure what else as this isn't in my field. (even not being my field, I know this should have been planned and executed more professionally.) Hardware does not fail for no reason and Planning does not cost more money...

It may feel good to write about how good that 10 minutes of up-time was, but I am sure the volume that crushed your equipment was just a small percentage of actual traffic. So in hind site, that should serve as a warning I would think. I understand that right now your best option is to scramble, beg for help and attempt to save face. In the big picture, I just wonder how many times you can 'cry wolf' (since you are all familiar with bed time stories) before you are dead in the water. Personally, I know I will need to see some long term stability, before jumping back on this bandwagon. Nothing personal.

I will also chip in the agreement that the lack of a simple message on the zooomr home page was irritating at best. Do not assume everyone is ready willing or able to jump on the latest gizmo/video to find basic information...

Regards,
-John

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

-gary — Thu, 31 May 2007 17:21:00 -0000

I was thinking about this whole deal this morning and wondered, why doesn't Sun start an incubator type of program?

They could stock a datacenter with a bizillion of their servers and run them like Media Temple does their grid service. Lure in startups with the promise of free computing power and space for something like 2 years, with caps on processor and bandwidth usage of course. When their term ends and they, hopefully, move on to be a profitable company, give them a discount on their own hardware.

Startups can then focus on their service and building a monetary base while Sun can focus on introducing startups to their hardware and OS with the hope that it will translate into sales down the road. Seems like a win-win to me. It will cost some money, but it pales in comparison to their overall budget trying to push their AMD based hardware. Bandwidth is so cheap these days, it would almost be a non-issue.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Robert Scoble — Thu, 31 May 2007 14:51:06 -0000

Ethan: I don't erase comments, at least not Shelley's. She has a point of view I appreciate.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Ethan — Thu, 31 May 2007 14:31:59 -0000

"I’m working on a Greasemonkey script that will simply omit all comments by Shelley, if anyone is interested."

Yes, because God forbid that you come into contact with opinions that differ from your own.

And really? Considering the sheer volume of what can objectively be called trolling by others on this site, Shelley alone warrants the magic eraser treatment, huh?

While you're at it, make a script to help me keep score. Here's what I have so far:

Dare calls Scoble out on an errant comment about Flickr: Receives mea culpa.
Shelley questions how zooomr got to this point, and how they're going to prevent it in the future: Threatened with the magic eraser treatment.

Can I just say that I've got your "conversation" right here?

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Trevor Carpenter — Thu, 31 May 2007 14:05:53 -0000

I'm working on a Greasemonkey script that will simply omit all comments by Shelley, if anyone is interested.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Steve — Thu, 31 May 2007 10:59:40 -0000

I'm not even going to profess to know anything about Zooomr, or about when they launched a real RTM product. However, it would be very clear to me not to put high expectations into a site that has BETA in the name of the URL. I know when I use items that are in beta, if that item or site goes down, I just check back occasionally to see if they are back up. I certainly don't berate them for not having a business model, or for not having the proper infrastructure in place to support the growing community.

Now, if this was a true RTM product, sure, I'd have a hard time supporting them if this went on this long.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Roger Lancefield — Thu, 31 May 2007 09:01:55 -0000

@hillary

> shelley, it might be time for you to go away.

The guys at zooomr won't have the luxury of being able to say that to serious investors or VCs, and most of those are going to have a very similar attitude to that Shelley is displaying here.

That said, I wish zooomr luck, but let's bear in mind that even if they pull this off, it's not going to be sustainable or repeatable (for zooomr or others). Other youthful startups on a similar trajectory had better not be fooled into thinking that this kind of publicity and reaction can be generated twice.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

striatic — Thu, 31 May 2007 02:17:49 -0000

just to clarify, ludicorp was making GNE and in a deep financial hole with a community of thousands saying "build the game! build the game! we're with you all the way!"

it is precisely because they decided to listen to their brains/common sense, and go AGAINST the wishes and passions of the community to build flickr instead of GNE that they are anything but a footnote in the history of "web 2.0".

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

striatic — Thu, 31 May 2007 02:12:10 -0000

shelley, i'm not sure that i agree with your tone, but i certainly understand your frustration.

i really honestly hope that zooomr launches and that everyone gets paid a huge chunk of this apparently 2.5 billion dollar stock photo market and that there are zooomr museums set up in every major city with big plasma screens and laser light shows of thomas hawk and kris tate's faces across the moon once a year on "international zooomr is awesome day".

but a lot of this is about 'the dream' .. does anyone really believe that if zooomr launches marketplace and they put up their photos for sale that everyone is going to be reaping the harvest? it is far from a sure thing and skepticism shouldn't be a dirty word, not even in the blogosphere.

which is to say that this is a social gamble on top of a technical gamble on top of a financial gamble and while it's great that people have faith in it, there's also very little to show for all that faith right now.

i don't think it should be heretical to point out that by many important criteria, zooomr is well short of 'awesome', and that perhaps this isn't such a great 'evangelism opportunity'.

evangelism for and faith in a site praying for resurrection. there's a kind of religious fervor around this thing that befuddles me.

the funniest thing is that this REALLY reminds me of ludicorp's first project, GNE - which had similar back end and financial issues. except in the zooomr version of that story out of pride they keep developing the original product instead of switching to something else.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Podesta — Thu, 31 May 2007 01:49:41 -0000

I spoke too soon. But, at least equipment is being 'loaned' instead of money invested. Not that the lenders will get the equipment back if they let it leave the premises.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Norby — Thu, 31 May 2007 01:39:08 -0000

Good luck with the next next launch - glad to hear that you've got your hands on some fresh hardware to continue the battle. I hope you got two of everything, with extra cheese this time though :)

Operations can be a real drag sometimes, but the real world is always out there, somewhere...

-/\/

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

LayZ — Thu, 31 May 2007 01:38:18 -0000

@72. Chris, let's remember Scoble supposedly tried to get MS to buy Flickr, but failed. What makes us think he would successful with his board in convincing them to help Zooomr?

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

hillary hartley — Thu, 31 May 2007 00:36:49 -0000

shelley, it might be time for you to go away.

i've agreed with many of your points, but it's the attitude that i don't get. i'm sorry you're not on the A-list (just read your blog for the first time after scanning these comments); but hell, most of us aren't even on the Z-list.

i'm rooting for zooomr, b/c i think they *will* change the game. am i disappointed that after two failed launches they haven't gotten any sysadmin help for kristopher? yes, but i also can't really speak to it -- the whole money where your mouth is thing.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Shelley Powers — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:32:56 -0000

Oh god, I hear the angels singing on high...

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Thomas Hawk — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:20:02 -0000

Just to give people a quick update, thanks to Robert's support and efforts we were put in touch with Zoho this morning who have offered to help support Zooomr. Raj Vegesna has spent all afternoon with us getting us situated in Zoho's data center with a new server. That's where we are right now working to get Zooomr Mark III back up and running.

I haven't seen my kids or slept much in the last 48 hours but we will get Zooomr back up because we care about the Zooomr community.

Additionally Sun Microsystems has stepped up and has a server being sent over on a truck as we speak to reinforce our efforts to get back online.

A lot has been written here deriding our business efforts and plan so I'd like to take a minute to share that with you.

At present the $2.5 billion stock photography market is dominated by three companies primarily. Getty, Corbis, and Jupitermedia. These companies accept very few photographers each year and are gatekeepers to a market that many, many more photographers should be involved with. Many of the best photographers that I know have been rejected by the likes of Getty and Corbis.

If you do get accepted as a photographer there then you basically get paid 40% (I'm generalizing here) of the gross proceeds from the sale of your images.

For everybody else in the world, the only way to access this market is to go through the microstock agencies online. These agencies might accept some of your work and they might not. In the case of the largest of these (iStockphoto, now owned by Getty) they will pay you 20% of the proceeds of sale. There they sell your images for $1, $3 or $5. So if you sell a $3 photograph you might get paid 60 cents.

The average royalty free photograph at Getty by the way sells for about $285.

What the internet is best at is at eliminating the middleman. eBay did this. Craigslist did this. Many, many other successful internet ventures have done this.

What Zooomr wants to do is to open up this $2.5 billion market. You see the photos that I'm taking with my 5D. That my friend Lane Hartwell is taking with her 5D. That my friend Sam Bloomgberg-Rissman is shooting in Spain and Shanghai. These photographs are every bit as good as what the Pros at Getty and Corbis or shooting. And we are not alone. There are literally thousands of amazing photographers shooting out there right now. I know these people. They are my friends. I know their work. I favorite and comment on their images. And their images are every bit as good as the Pros.

Zooomr wants to open the stock photography market but we also want to change the equation of how the $2.5 billion market is divided up. You see, from our perspective, why should great photographers like Jeff Clow get paid 20% for a $1 image on iStockphoto? Even the pros. Why should they only get 40%.

What Zooomr wants to do is redefine the stock photography market and pay photographers 90%. Yes, 90% while letting them have complete pricing control over their images. Working photographers everywhere deserve to get the bulk of the money made on images that they create.

And you know what else. Do you know what the sale of $100 image will mean to a kid in India or China? Do you know how much more that will mean to them than it does to you and I? By localizing in 18 languages (and growing rapidly) Zooomr will open up this economic pie to the entire world.

And we think we can operate on a 10% cut. And if 10% is more than we need to get by we'll change the equation to 95% to the photographer.

We are not doing this to get rich. I took out a second mortgage on my house to make this work. We are doing this because we want to change the world of photo sharing. We are doing this because we passionate believe in photosharing and in online photosharing in all the forms it takes.

Flickr is a great service. I've been preaching to the folks at Flickr that they should do stock photography since the first moment that I met them. But that's not what Flickr is. Flickr is a non commercial service. Flickr will likely stay pretty much just as they are today for a long time. Innovating here and there, but not doing the exciting things that we want to do at Zooomr. Their next big feat will be to integrate about 2 bilion photos from Yahoo photos into Flickr.

By the way, I wish everyone would stop the either/or comparisons with Flickr and Zooomr. Trust me. There is room for both. I guarantee you that many of our most passionate users on Zooomr *also* have Flickr accounts. I do. I love Flickr. Will I bitch at them when I think they are doing the wrong thing? You bet. But I love Flickr and the Flickr Community. And at the same time I love Zooomr and the Zooomr Community. They are two different things. Both good.

Anyways. Zooomr will survive. Zooomr will survive because more than anything it is built on pure passion and love for photography and photosharing and community. And someday we will look back on these growing pains and remember that sometimes in order to do incredible things you must go through fire. We will go through fire but we will survive.

When we launched yesterday it was glorious. For about 10 glorious minutes you should have seen it. Many of us were in a chat room together and celebrating. And then we stumbled. Hard.

But you know what? There was a community there that picked us up and dusted us off and got us back on our feet. Robert Scoble. Zoho. Sun Microsystems. We got many more emails reaching out from other companies, even Microsoft. And we gotten dozens and dozens of emails from our community saying things like hey, I just donated $30. It's all I can afford but I wanted to help out in the only way that I could.

The Zooomr Community is strong. Shelly Powers spent 5 minutes in a chat room last night and has declared Zooomr unfit. But something great has been going on in that chat room all week long. Robert knows it. He's been in the room with us not for 5 minutes but actually for many many hours. Dave Sifry's stopped by. He sees what we are doing. Even the folks from Flickr have been by believe it or not. My favorite Flickr staffer Rev Dan Catt has even been hanging out with us. Our users have sent us food. One of our users drove Kristopher down to our data center last night at 1am in the morning. You tell me another company that has users this passionate.

As I write this I'm sitting on a hard floor in Zoho's space in Sunnyvale. Raj from Zoho is helping Kristopher get our servers back online at 8:30 at night in their space with their servers. This is what it's all about.

I will never forget the generousity of the community that helped fight for Zooomr this week. I love you all.

Power to the people. The best photographs in the world have yet to be taken.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Podesta — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:26:15 -0000

I just read through the last two-thirds of comments to see if anyone was actually fool enough to lay thousands or millions of greenbacks on Zooomr (awful name). It appears, that cheerleading and Robert's 'help my friends because they are my friends' appeal notwithstanding, no one has. That proves that even the people on this thread telling the Zoomies what they want to hear have common sense.

Keep fighting the good fight, Shelley. A lot of people criticizing you are being influenced to use their heads whether they like it or not.

Robert keeps bragging about the scale of Kristopher's sort of plans. Seems to me that the real issue might be that Kristopher needs to scale those dubious plans back. If Asia is his core region, maybe he should serve Asian markets first, rolling out from Korea or Japan.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Robert Scoble — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:55:42 -0000

Dare: yeah, I use Flickr. I agree it wasn't a good moment of mine.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Dare Obasanjo — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:49:43 -0000

> I forgot about Flickr’s “pro” accounts. But if that’s really returning a huge return on investment I’d be very surprised.

Do you even use Flickr? The site has ads as well. I'm pretty sure Yahoo! wouldn't have shut down a large, profitable service like Yahoo! Photos to replace it with an unprofitable Flickr.

Seriously, sometimes you need to pause and reflect before spewing on these threads. I doubt the Flickr folks appreciate your questionable conclusions about their business in your attempt to make Zooomr look good.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Gareth Timms — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:57:08 -0000

I'm going come at this from a different angle. Much of the discussion above concerns technology and concerns business planning. These have their place and are important however what is important to me is having access to others who will comment upon, who will encourage me and who I can learn from. This is what community is about. I have not found these to be as readily available on any other photography sites as on Zooomr. This is down to the community that Kris and Thomas have built and their attitudes and behaviour towards that community.

I have worked in community development and it is within these areas that Zooomr has demonstrated many of its strengths.

It is not exclusive in fact has gone to considerable lengths to include people from outside the West. But more fundementally people like Thomas and other experienced members (Raoul for example)go out of their way to look at and comment on other peoples pictures and not just the people they know. This has enabled newbies and technophobes like me to feel more comfortable able to post our thoughts and to get involved. Too often on the internet many of us are excluded by the language, by attitudes, by our own self doubt.

Zooomr is open Im not talking about code but letting the members know what is going on. The video this last week has been about this. They have tried to keep people informed and the community has gradually developed its own ways of doing this better. People have at times been critical but there has not been a huge outpouring of blaming but rather of understanding and support. This is so refreshing these days when people seem to find it easy to say the negative rather then the positive.

I think this week I have seen a community develop flourish and hopefully the new Zooomr will blooom sooon. And hey yep I've made a small donation and feel good about it.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Garth — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:48:22 -0000

I say keep the ice out wine, and the tomato juice out of beer :)

This is from a year ago, so they did not learn much since last time:

http://burningbird.net/stuf...

I also don't understand how Ron Conway got his $50,000 back without telling Thomas or Kris. However it happened, to have a guy like Ron Conway take his money back without asking after less than a year is not a good sign.

Businesses don't ask for donations, charities do.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

dawn m. armfield — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:21:20 -0000

I'm not going to raise pom-poms but I think Thomas Hawk has some valid points. Unless you're a long-time member of a community, it's hard to see the highs and lows that go along with it. I've been at Flickr nearly as long as Thomas and at Zooomr for quite a while now, as well. I've seen members up in arms over Flickr downtimes and still be supportive.

Shelley keeps talking about transparency and telling us what is going on. Thomas and Kris have done that. Sure, they've had a beer or wine or we've seen them eat dinner -- but the truth of the matter is that they have been honest from the beginning. They had high hopes for something that is really good and will be a positive addition to the photo community. If there was a wall to hit, they hit each one and yet still got up and kept moving. I think the pom-poms helped in that. When you don't have community support, it's hard to keep going.

I can't imagine any of the users not having backups of their photos elsewhere. I don't use Flickr, Zooomr, or even my own photoblog as the main storage of my photos. That's supplemental. In fact, many of us discussed this very topic on the chat boards last night and everyone who chimed in had external storage (DVD, hard drives, etc). We're not really losing our product.

What we've gained, though, is a stronger community. People have rallied and made donations. We are behind Kristopher and Thomas because we like their vision. Maybe it was a lot harder to attain than they first thought but the vision is a good one -- and it's one that doesn't just benefit them. They are looking out for us. So we look out for them, as well.

There aren't many online enterprises that say or do the same thing.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Karoli — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:12:14 -0000

Actually, if we're going to be picky about facts, Flickr's Pro Accounts are $25/year. They're a bargain for sure.

Re: An evangelism opportunity…

Robert Scoble — Wed, 30 May 2007 17:38:15 -0000

Seshadri: I'm in contact with them and their server problems might be solved WITHOUT getting funding. So, they are definitely working on "Plan B." Funding just would make the solution simpler and more sustainable long term (they still need a good database administrator etc).